Voyageurs Pick a Side

[Stryker911]

@AdminThis is probably going to open a can if worms, but how do the voyageurs take a stand on the ongoing CSA vs. Players issue? Why dont we come out and issue a statment? It happens all the time across the world that the fans get change within an organization.

I have read all the ongoing topics about the discussion on this topic, and the general consensus seems to be that most Voyageurs are happy with the CPL, but want more info regarding the CSB. Many are mad at the players for the Panama game, but the overall sentiment is that people are on the players side vs CSA (Bontis/Cochrane)

Why don't we demand transparency with these deals? Maybe the CSB won't renegotiate their deal to appease the national team, but they may if the hard-core soccer fans in this country demand it.

I know there is alot of different opinions on the subject, but I think anyone who has followed this time for any length of time knows that it is a dysfunctional organization and if changes are to happen now is the time.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Stryker911

[dyslexic nam]

Consensus on a divisive issue like this will always be challenging.   The one thing I suspect we would all agree on is the need for transparency.  Not sure a statement from us would get much (any) traction with the media or the CSA, but I think it would have to be limited to the issue of transparency with respect to the CSB agreement to get any sort of shared endorsement.   

[PastPros]

Yes, I think we could probably find some common ground on these points:

1) transparency from CSA (where does the money go?)

2) fair compensation for the players (especially with competition bonuses... They earned it!)

3) CSA governance review? (The stories of Bontis approving things without board consent are bonkers.)

I would love to see a renegotiation of the CSB deal but I doubt we'll find conensus there.

Edited July 14, 2022 by PastPros

[narduch]

Personally think we should call for Bontis and Cochrane to step down too.

[shorty]

50 minutes ago, PastPros said:

Yes, I think we could probably find some common ground on these points:

1) transparency from CSA (where does the money go?)

2) fair compensation for the players (especially with competition bonuses... They earned it!)

3) CSA governance review? (The stories of Bontis approving things without board consent are bonkers.)

I would love to see a renegotiation of the CSB deal but I doubt we'll find conensus there.

I think those three are points that most here could get behind based on reading all the debate. I would suggest also as a 1a) praise for Westhead and a call for continued in depth journalism like that to help maintain an ongoing standard of transparency. We wouldn’t want temporary transparency and a token review of CSA governance (for me the most egregious part of all of this, and not just now but for years). Otherwise it will be treated as something that will blow over and everything will reset to “normal” when people stop asking uncomfortable questions.
 

Accomplishing #2 won’t help with #1 and #3. 

[El Hombre]

I think any strong sentiment one way or the other and we will be back to individual Vs buying as many tickets as possible in one section and trying to re-sell them at home games in order to create some atmosphere.  Forget about getting the end at BMO or presale codes.

The Voyageurs' sections at all the WCQ games with all the flags and everything going on didn't all happen by themselves.

There is no win for us by saying anything remotely partisan on this issue.  Just negatives.

[Admin]

100% all downhill.

I just don't think we should be speaking for you or anyone on anything. 

Once a supporters group goes political, it is dead. 

 

[Stryker911]

10 minutes ago, Admin said:

100% all downhill.

I just don't think we should be speaking for you or anyone on anything. 

Once a supporters group goes political, it is dead. 

 

Don't supporters groups come out and speak on subjects daily? Watford canceled their friendly against Qatar because the supporters groups spoke up about it.

[Aird25]

If it’s a battle for money over current national teams players and rich businessesmen, I choose the players. If it’s a battle for money between current national team players and pro/semipro soccer in this country than I choose the latter. Do we know enough about where the money is ending up to even determine this?

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

1 hour ago, PastPros said:

Yes, I think we could probably find some common ground on these points:

1) transparency from CSA (where does the money go?)

2) fair compensation for the players (especially with competition bonuses... They earned it!)

3) CSA governance review? (The stories of Bontis approving things without board consent are bonkers.)

I would love to see a renegotiation of the CSB deal but I doubt we'll find conensus there.

I agree with all of these.

22 minutes ago, Admin said:

I just don't think we should be speaking for you or anyone on anything. 

Could we make a statement about just wishing for more transparency?

Is there anybody in the V's against that? That part seems apolitical.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Olympique_de_Marseille

[Fresh Prince of MTL]

17 minutes ago, Admin said:

100% all downhill.

I just don't think we should be speaking for you or anyone on anything. 

Once a supporters group goes political, it is dead. 

 

I’m with Stryker here supporters groups around the world constantly come together to support causes they believe in. You see Timbers Army protesting their front offices multiple scandals, Bayern supporters protesting the teams questionable Qatari sponsorship or Austin FC’s supporters protesting the Supreme Court the other night. And it’s not just a club team thing, the American Outlaws don’t shy away from supporting causes they believe in either, whether it’s gun control or LGBT+ support. When I think of supporters groups I think of their ability to support the team first but right after it’s to represent a group of peoples beliefs and change things for the better in the team and community.

[Admin]

7 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Don't supporters groups come out and speak on subjects daily? 

They do, and I have watched those groups pay a hefty toll for it, if not outright die as a result. 

We don't tell people what they can't say, and we don't speak for them either. 

This will likely change after the AGM/voting.  It seems most organizations simply can't avoid this kind of capture that subordinates their original mission to external politics.  This topic seems different, but in reality any given page of posts tells you we don't know anything. 

[The Real Marc]

We don't have enough knowledge to take a stand. It would be completely for show, with no intellectual heft or seriousness. Both groups, CSA and players, have acted like clowns. It's a bad idea.

[JamboAl]

The Voyageurs made an announcement when the Panama game was postponed.  Some people criticized because no side was taken.  How can you take a side without information or being a party involved in the process, especially on commercial matters?  

We can say we are for transparency, we are for equal pay for men and women (what that means financially and the process??), we are for the CPL, we are for the earth being round.  But is that not already understood?  Anything else and we'd just be adding to the mess and noise already there.

The opinions expressed above are those of the author and do not reflect those of the Voyageurs or any other party.  🙂

 

 

 

 

[ADP10]

my stance is I don’t care for any of them if they keep cancelling games and putting the pain on the fans. Keep this shite behind closed doors

[SpursFlu]

Because not everyone agrees 

I'm on the side of the CPL & CSA but I wouldn't want a public show of support for them apparently representing the Voyageurs and Canadian Soccer Supporters 

I've seen the Southsiders in Vancouver lose members and interest because they decided to publicly support this thing, that thing and everything and after a while people just resent people trying to speak on their behalf and turn what is supposed to be supporting the game and a passtime in to something entirely different 

Edited July 14, 2022 by SpursFlu

[kohanz]

Quote

fair compensation for the players (especially with competition bonuses... They earned it!)

Maybe we have consensus that the compensation needs to be "fair", but I highly doubt that everyone's definitions of "fair" are the same, especially when you take the women into account. If this point was in a statement and the question was asked what our definition of "fair compensation" would be, what then?

I would personally leave this part out. Transparency, absolutely.

[SpursFlu]

3 minutes ago, ADP10 said:

my stance is I don’t care for any of them if they keep cancelling games and putting the pain on the fans. Keep this shite behind closed doors

You my friend so simply summed it up perfectly 

[SpursFlu]

4 minutes ago, kohanz said:

Maybe we have consensus that the compensation needs to be "fair", but I highly doubt that everyone's definitions of "fair" are the same, especially when you take the women into account. If this point was in a statement and the question was asked what our definition of "fair compensation" would be, what then?

I would personally leave this part out. Transparency, absolutely.

But its not fair!

Sounds like my daughter this morning when I said no to her 3rd bowl of Corn Flakes. But but but it's not fair!

What the hell is fair?

I agree with the transparency part but to a degree. Canadian soccer players should understand what's going on but it shouldn't be 24 guys at the top calling the shots. They need to understand the challenges and the importance of a men's and women's pro league in Canada

Edited July 14, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Unnamed Trialist]

The problem really is that we now have a proper working relationship with the CSA, largely thanks to specific individuals here, for things like ticketing, the supporter section, tifos and flags, pre and post-game. This is not gratuitous and if it were to falter we'd regret it. What just happened with our sections during qualifying was amazing. 

I'm very politically minded and often think about protests. We did them years ago, eg regarding Dale Mitchell, and they actually worked. But I'm not sure that adversarial role is tenable for certain internal matters. 

I also was involved in us sending a letter of condolence, as a group, in at least one case (Feher dying on the pitch for Benfica). I'd like us to see that latter mode back,where we could congratulate someone, express condolences, have a human face. We need to find some areas where the common voice returns. I'd have protested the Panama cancellation from the strict perspective of the fans being mistreated on a game day. I'd protest MLS roster rules as they discriminate Canadians. I'd make statements to ensure the original spirit of the Voyageurs Cup is always respected (I'm thankful they played that delayed final, for example). If some trash were to go down with supporters (heavy handed security, which used to be common fare for us),the same.

As Jamie is suggesting, the new legal status of the VS may see more of this happening. Also: there is dialogue with the CSA we don't see. It's not transparent perhaps, so not a fully representative voice, but it's there. 

But it is a bit of a messy thing to get into. Some supporter groups have become mired in causes and have ended up screwing up. And hurting themselves. Our priority interests have to come first. 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, The Real Marc said:

We don't have enough knowledge to take a stand. It would be completely for show, with no intellectual heft or seriousness. Both groups, CSA and players, have acted like clowns. It's a bad idea.

I guess that is why I think the one thing we could actually get behind is increased transparency.  It is a structural change that would allow all parties to have more informed positions.  It isn’t taking a stand on a substantive issue - it is asking for better flow of info to enable better dialogue on all sides.  

[Admin]

Our position is both amazing, and precarious.  I have personally done and said things in the past that have almost completely killed this.  That would have been grossly unfair to everyone.  So I stay mostly silent, and just ensure that we do the one thing no one, at any level anywhere can say shit about.  Show up.  

We are not a club team.  We don't have season tickets, every single game is new.  Heck, it isn't even a given we can hang our banners at a game, or set up flags.  Those things are negotiated on our behalf by Canada Soccer...every single game with the relevant union.  Every single game.

The people in Canada Soccer today are very supportive of us, and this was NOT always the case.  We outlasted pretty much everyone, by simply stubbornly showing up and getting shit done in the stadium.  The only 'political' move I have ever made was to call in a lot of favors to get us more tickets to the USA game in Hamilton.  That worked, but I would not try it again for a decade.   Canada soccer gave us almost 4000 seats to the Jamaica game.  People really  have to stop and really grasp how fucking amazing that is.  While today we are a legal organization (clarification of that in the fall), it really has been nothing more than me and a website for the majority of that time.   The only real agreement in place we have is the Voyageurs Cup.  Everything else is game to game.  There is zero guarantee, should there be a wholesale changeover at Canada Soccer, that we ever have a supporters section again. 

This website was divorced from the Voyageurs because it has at times been completely insane.  Not sure in today's social media world people have the time or inclination to read everything, but there was a time everyone read this site. The desire for vaporizing us for the shit people would read on here was a real thing, many times over. 

We are though in some trouble.  Our base is way too old,  and it is not as easy or obvious how to rectify that when we might not even have a game here till 2023, and only one at that.   While we may ride the high of that qualification run, it masked some real problems for us to draw and fill sections.  I don't think it is clear, but I do feel that problem is there. 

We have literally had more flags in the stadium than our sections have sold tickets for multiple games. So right now, we are not exactly doing the one thing that has kept us alive all this time, and that is a problem.

 

[shermanator]

3 hours ago, Admin said:

Once a supporters group goes political, it is dead. 

 

Yes and no.

Supporters groups have the biggest voice that can be leveraged to influence how a club / national organization can change their ways.

But I think you have to be very careful with what issues you take a stance on. When a supporters group gets to a certain size, you are kind of damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Taking a stance on either side sees you lose people, and not taking a stance sees you lose people.

To grow the group long term you have to think about what will get the most people in the stands 5, 10, 15 years out. Whether that's taking a stance or not...

Edited July 14, 2022 by shermanator

[Stryker911]

30 minutes ago, Admin said:

Our position is both amazing, and precarious.  I have personally done and said things in the past that have almost completely killed this.  That would have been grossly unfair to everyone.  So I stay mostly silent, and just ensure that we do the one thing no one, at any level anywhere can say shit about.  Show up.  

We are not a club team.  We don't have season tickets, every single game is new.  Heck, it isn't even a given we can hang our banners at a game, or set up flags.  Those things are negotiated on our behalf by Canada Soccer...every single game with the relevant union.  Every single game.

The people in Canada Soccer today are very supportive of us, and this was NOT always the case.  We outlasted pretty much everyone, by simply stubbornly showing up and getting shit done in the stadium.  The only 'political' move I have ever made was to call in a lot of favors to get us more tickets to the USA game in Hamilton.  That worked, but I would not try it again for a decade.   Canada soccer gave us almost 4000 seats to the Jamaica game.  People really  have to stop and really grasp how fucking amazing that is.  While today we are a legal organization (clarification of that in the fall), it really has been nothing more than me and a website for the majority of that time.   The only real agreement in place we have is the Voyageurs Cup.  Everything else is game to game.  There is zero guarantee, should there be a wholesale changeover at Canada Soccer, that we ever have a supporters section again. 

This website was divorced from the Voyageurs because it has at times been completely insane.  Not sure in today's social media world people have the time or inclination to read everything, but there was a time everyone read this site. The desire for vaporizing us for the shit people would read on here was a real thing, many times over. 

We are though in some trouble.  Our base is way too old,  and it is not as easy or obvious how to rectify that when we might not even have a game here till 2023, and only one at that.   While we may ride the high of that qualification run, it masked some real problems for us to draw and fill sections.  I don't think it is clear, but I do feel that problem is there. 

We have literally had more flags in the stadium than our sections have sold tickets for multiple games. So right now, we are not exactly doing the one thing that has kept us alive all this time, and that is a problem.

 

I get what you are saying. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been showing up to the stadium in Canada and being outnumbered by the away supporters. 

It is good Canada Soccer is supportive of the Voyageurs. 

However, similar to what Johnston said yesterday the players have a leg to stand on now. So do the Voyageurs, they were huge on TV during wcq. You were getting interviews on national TV. Now the voyageurs are well known enough to have a voice in this nation.

I guess we can't really ask Bontis to step down, but we could say something like we want all parties to work together to build Canadian soccer and grow a sustainable future for the sport in this country.

[SpursFlu]

One experience I've had as a challenge is that inevitably we need to reach out to younger people and immigrants. I think sometimes we get wrapped up in our mindset and social issues that don't translate to other football cultures. Or truthfully people just are sick of hearing about this crap. Current case in point. I think the key is always bringing it back to the football, the supporting, the passion, the fun. This translates to everyone. New Canadians, young Canadians and old Canadians who may have preconceived ideas about the sport

No offense to anyone but I get the impression that a core football supporters that saw the sport thru the hard times were people who back in the day went traveling, fell in love with the sport and then came home and supported the sport because it had a counter culture feel to it. Supporting soccer was a way of saying i dont support or relate with that. This all comes with a certain world view but we need to branch out because football in other countries isnt that. this isn't an indy band that you can just hog to yourself. It all needs to be more inclusive. Not in the BS inclusive way you see thrown around the media but truly inclusive in that it brings people together and it's not divisive. We also need experiences and opportunities to execute and to create that bond. That's why the Iran Panama game being canceled pissed me off. Such a missed opportunity. The CPL is also key because as it was stated the National team is not a club team. Experiences are few and far between especially in Canada. The CPL helps create those satellites and brings new people in to and FORMING Canadian football culture. Then the next natural step is supporting our national team.

Anyways stay out of stuff like this and all these other things. Cheer for football and as many Canadian Football experiences we can create across this country and keep it positive 

Edited July 14, 2022 by SpursFlu