The Shape of Concacaf

[SpecialK]

I thought it would be a cool topic to talk about. Definitely Concacaf needs to be better and out the all the confederations were probably last in competitiveness but is that changing ? 

So Concacaf best teams ( the final 8 )      

1 Canada

2 Mexico

3 United States

4 Costa Rica

5 Panama

6 Jamaica

7 El Salvador

8 Honduras

Good Teams

Suriname

Curaçao

Haiti

Trinidad and Tobago

Growing teams 

Bermuda

Cuba 

St.Kitts 

Montserrat
 

The rest ….  Just plan horrible. 
 

the teams that could be very interesting if they had all their dual nationals. 
Barbados

Dominican Republic

French Guiana

Guadeloupe

Thoughts anyone …. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by SpecialK

[Unnamed Trialist]

Well Grenada qualified for the last Gold Cup, with a Canadian coach. So we have a situation where minnows are doing better. 

I'll give credit to Montagliani, it's important to grow club competitions and national teams, the latter is a fifa mandate, clubs less directly but as well. He's done a lot in a short time. The CPL was a missing piece too. 

If the chances improve for those mid teams, they'll be encouraged and will put more effort into it, maybe. Suriname can legit dream of a run for the world cup in 2 decades,for example. 

The Gold Cup needs reworking. The model is outdated, especially always playing in the States. Play elsewhere and maybe spend to improve stadiums and facilities while you're at it. 

You missed Guatemala. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[youllneverwalkalone]

[narduch]

4 hours ago, SpecialK said:

I thought it would be a cool topic to talk about. Definitely Concacaf needs to be better and out the all the confederations were probably last in competitiveness but is that changing ? 

So Concacaf best teams ( the final 8 )      

1 Canada

2 Mexico

3 United States

4 Costa Rica

5 Panama

6 Jamaica

7 El Salvador

8 Honduras

Good Teams

Suriname

Curaçao

Haiti

Trinidad and Tobago

Growing teams 

Bermuda

Cuba 

St.Kitts 

Montserrat
 

The rest ….  Just plan horrible. 
 

the teams that could be very interesting if they had all their dual nationals. 
Barbados

Dominican Republic

French Guiana

Guadeloupe

Thoughts anyone …. 

I like how you are missing some nations and have included some of the non FIFA ones

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

5 hours ago, SpecialK said:

The Shape of CONCACAF

Historically a hexagon but more recently an octagon.

[phil03]

Basically the CONCACAF goes like this IMO:

Tier I: Teams that are more or less World Cup focused . They aren't Uninterested in CONCACAF competition but it isn't their focus. In Gold Cup anything less then a semi final is a disapointment.

There is five countries in that tier: Canada, USA, Mexico, Costa Rica and Panama.

Tier II: Team who seek to build, or rebuild, themselves inside CONCACAF to hopefully have a go at world cup qualifications at some point and become a Gold Cup contender. It isn't unheard to see some of these nations making a run in Gold Cup (and Nations League now). 

Here is an aproximative list in that tier: Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador, Granada, Suriname, Haiti, Trinidad and Tobago Curaçao and Guatemala.

Tier III: Everyone else. The real minows, with different degrees of how much they need to do to claw their way to significance.

As to how to improve it I think the following would be a good start:

I. Get better referees:

This one is a no-brainer and a constant source of complaints from fans of the region. I am kinder to refs then most but there most due to having done it as a summer job in my teens but there is limit. The amount of calls not made (I'd argue Canada should have gotten like 10-15 more penalties then we got during the fourteen games long last round of qualifications) and of indulgence toward simulation is simply not acceptable.

II. Ensure everyone has a descent pitch.

Another source of constant complaits from many fans of the area, as in many case the poor quality is actually easily visible on TV! Playing qualifications to the biggest sport tournament in the world in such terrains is simply not acceptable. Of course, I am conscious of the economic challenges faced by several member federations but many still find the cash to sustain pretty popular local professional leagues so I'd argue there is no reason why the money couldn't be found somewhere. For those who truly can't some kind of revenue sharing scheme from better off federations to help build such pitches should be put in place.

III. Ensure no game is played when the weather is not appropriate to do so

Several federations have whined about being forced to play in cold Canadian stadiums during the last years. Privately most Canadian fans would concede they have a point but then proceed to state that they have no sympathy whatsoever for the other teams, as Canada has long complained about being forced under dangerous levels of heath without being heard, a complaint echoed by the US, and then there was the Water Polo game in Honduras... Thus, the Canucks are merely playing by the very same rules imposed to it by others...

To resolve this situation standards should be imposed on all teams when it come to weather, to prevent both frostbites and heath strokes.

IV. Deal with toxic fans

CONCACAF teams have wonderfull fans but, unfortunately and like many other sports teams, they also have toxic fans. Even more unfortunately, in some cases these toxic fans have reached deeply problematic numbers and have forced away teams to play under conditions that cannot be justified. The cases of homophobic chants have been widly reported but several other incidents, which often can't really be described in a familly friendly forum, have also taken place over the year. Playing at home should be an advantage but sometimes it shouldn't be THAT much of an advantage.

The retort often given to this is that CONCACAF is scarcely unique in having such issues but IMO this is not a reason to refrain from taking action.

V. Fix the Gold Cup

The continental tournament of the CONCACAF, has unfortunately failed to get the prestige it should have and all too often has used gimicky tactics. Expending it from twelve to sixteen teams, and droping the best thirds, is a good start but we should also get rid of any invited teams and have it happen only once every four years instead of two. The later point would help make it a bigger event in people's mind and also make it both easier and more attractive for our teams to truly get their best squads for the tournament. Ideally I would love to see it become a FIFA-mandated international window but that might be a bit of a stretch...

VI. Get everyone in FIFA

Several of CONCACAF's teams represent Dutch and French overseas territory, which unfortunately means that they aren't FIFA members and therefore not taking part in World Cup qualifications. This is a problem for both these teams and CONCACAF as a whole as it hinder the growth of these teams and, as two of them play a significan part in CONCACAF's landscape (Martinique and Guadeloupe) it is a problem for the confederation as a whole. We should work with the French and Dutch federations as well as with FIFA to achieve FIFA membership for any member of CONCACAF who doesn't have it and would like it.

Edited June 24, 2022 by phil03

[SpecialK]

For me it’s all about getting weaker teams stronger and playing in professional environments, bigger and better stadiums where good players will feel comfortable playing. 
Canada and Mexico should be hosting more tournaments. 

some of these weaker teams can be power house like Barbados as an example. Some small island teams have duals in lower division for example (3rd and 4th tier england ) in Europe that could improve The quality as well. Also there are a lot of young talent players playing for some big clubs academies that could come and play. For me that’s what concacaf  is missing some true even competition. 
I why wonder if Concacaf could do more to help get players over here to North America 

Some interesting name there and that’s just a small sample and some big names left out. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by SpecialK

[SpecialK]

[gigi riva]

The overall play of the teams in CONCACAF  has improved in the last twenty years . And we are seeing some emerging nations like Suriname, Curacao, and even Haiti.  Still CONCACAF needs some organization changes  but I guess you can say the same thing about other Confederations and even FIFA too.

      I guess it will take years to erase all the mess that good old Jack Warner and his American sidekick did. One thing they can start with is try to fix or improve the Gold Cup. 

[gigi riva]

On 6/24/2022 at 12:27 PM, phil03 said:

Basically the CONCACAF goes like this IMO:

Tier I: Teams that are more or less World Cup focused . They aren't Uninterested in CONCACAF competition but it isn't their focus. In Gold Cup anything less then a semi final is a disapointment.

There is five countries in that tier: Canada, USA, Mexico, Costa Rica and Panama.

Tier II: Team who seek to build, or rebuild, themselves inside CONCACAF to hopefully have a go at world cup qualifications at some point and become a Gold Cup contender. It isn't unheard to see some of these nations making a run in Gold Cup (and Nations League now). 

Here is an aproximative list in that tier: Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador, Granada, Suriname, Haiti, Trinidad and Tobago Curaçao and Guatemala.

Tier III: Everyone else. The real minows, with different degrees of how much they need to do to claw their way to significance.

As to how to improve it I think the following would be a good start:

I. Get better referees:

This one is a no-brainer and a constant source of complaints from fans of the region. I am kinder to refs then most but there most due to having done it as a summer job in my teens but there is limit. The amount of calls not made (I'd argue Canada should have gotten like 10-15 more penalties then we got during the fourteen games long last round of qualifications) and of indulgence toward simulation is simply not acceptable.

II. Ensure everyone has a descent pitch.

Another source of constant complaits from many fans of the area, as in many case the poor quality is actually easily visible on TV! Playing qualifications to the biggest sport tournament in the world in such terrains is simply not acceptable. Of course, I am conscious of the economic challenges faced by several member federations but many still find the cash to sustain pretty popular local professional leagues so I'd argue there is no reason why the money couldn't be found somewhere. For those who truly can't some kind of revenue sharing scheme from better off federations to help build such pitches should be put in place.

III. Ensure no game is played when the weather is not appropriate to do so

Several federations have whined about being forced to play in cold Canadian stadiums during the last years. Privately most Canadian fans would concede they have a point but then proceed to state that they have no sympathy whatsoever for the other teams, as Canada has long complained about being forced under dangerous levels of heath without being heard, a complaint echoed by the US, and then there was the Water Polo game in Honduras... Thus, the Canucks are merely playing by the very same rules imposed to it by others...

To resolve this situation standards should be imposed on all teams when it come to weather, to prevent both frostbites and heath strokes.

IV. Deal with toxic fans

CONCACAF teams have wonderfull fans but, unfortunately and like many other sports teams, they also have toxic fans. Even more unfortunately, in some cases these toxic fans have reached deeply problematic numbers and have forced away teams to play under conditions that cannot be justified. The cases of homophobic chants have been widly reported but several other incidents, which often can't really be described in a familly friendly forum, have also taken place over the year. Playing at home should be an advantage but sometimes it shouldn't be THAT much of an advantage.

The retort often given to this is that CONCACAF is scarcely unique in having such issues but IMO this is not a reason to refrain from taking action.

V. Fix the Gold Cup

The continental tournament of the CONCACAF, has unfortunately failed to get the prestige it should have and all too often has used gimicky tactics. Expending it from twelve to sixteen teams, and droping the best thirds, is a good start but we should also get rid of any invited teams and have it happen only once every four years instead of two. The later point would help make it a bigger event in people's mind and also make it both easier and more attractive for our teams to truly get their best squads for the tournament. Ideally I would love to see it become a FIFA-mandated international window but that might be a bit of a stretch...

VI. Get everyone in FIFA

Several of CONCACAF's teams represent Dutch and French overseas territory, which unfortunately means that they aren't FIFA members and therefore not taking part in World Cup qualifications. This is a problem for both these teams and CONCACAF as a whole as it hinder the growth of these teams and, as two of them play a significan part in CONCACAF's landscape (Martinique and Guadeloupe) it is a problem for the confederation as a whole. We should work with the French and Dutch federations as well as with FIFA to achieve FIFA membership for any member of CONCACAF who doesn't have it and would like it.

Toxic Fans 

It still boggles my mind how Mexican supporters get away with yelling that Puto shit  and other of Central American teams get away with throwing Urine and other stuff on opposing players

[Matro25]

The future of CONCACAF is a merger with CONMEBOL to some degree. 

[SpecialK]

15 minutes ago, Matro25 said:

The future of CONCACAF is a merger with CONMEBOL to some degree. 

The minnows in Concacaf would get destroyed even more. It’s wouldn’t even be funny- it would be just sad 

[Matro25]

6 hours ago, SpecialK said:

The minnows in Concacaf would get destroyed even more. It’s wouldn’t even be funny- it would be just sad 

My wild prediction is that the minnows of the Caribbean will form their own confederation and operate like Oceania.

Islands like St Kitts and Aruba shouldn't be competing in CONCACAF anyways with all due respect.

[Unnamed Trialist]

On 6/26/2022 at 1:22 PM, Matro25 said:

My wild prediction is that the minnows of the Caribbean will form their own confederation and operate like Oceania.

Islands like St Kitts and Aruba shouldn't be competing in CONCACAF anyways with all due respect.

Disagree. 

Let them play. Let results decide. Watch them improve. 

We already screen them out of our definitive qualifying rounds, but some then on occasion and rise. 

I once watched Andorra hold England to a draw for 55 min and it was rather entertaining. Andorra only has 80,000 to draw from, apart from there not being young people there for various reasons. They have no exile to draw from, unlike most Caribbean minnows. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[gigi riva]

14 hours ago, Matro25 said:

The future of CONCACAF is a merger with CONMEBOL to some degree. 

Personally  I don't want it 

[gigi riva]

7 hours ago, Matro25 said:

My wild prediction is that the minnows of the Caribbean will form their own confederation and operate like Oceania.

Islands like St Kitts and Aruba shouldn't be competing in CONCACAF anyways with all due respect.

During the Jack Warner corrupt years . I think they were taliking about that  I emember reading that some where

[SpursFlu]

12 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Toxic Fans 

It still boggles my mind how Mexican supporters get away with yelling that Puto shit  and other of Central American teams get away with throwing Urine and other stuff on opposing players

I'm kinda a fan of the puto and throwing pee. 

American sports are too "corporate" for my taste 

If the jumbo tron was flashing puto clap clap, puto clap clap,  during a water break and if they were giving out bags of pee to the first 5000 thru the turnstiles.. then yah not cool

Edited June 26, 2022 by SpursFlu

[phil03]

13 hours ago, gigi riva said:

Toxic Fans 

It still boggles my mind how Mexican supporters get away with yelling that Puto shit  and other of Central American teams get away with throwing Urine and other stuff on opposing players

The fact they have a good block of votes inside CONCACAF has much to do with it IMO... Its hard to make change happen in those circumstances.

Then there is the problem of some fans in bad faith on our, and the Americans', sides letting themselves too easily slide from valid criticisms against federations and some fans to criticisms against countries and peoples as a whole with problematic undertones... Which then allow fans in bad faith on their side to tar valid criticisms by associations as all part of first world countries disrespecting them... It create a climate that is definitely not conducive to calm and realistic dialogue that would lead to much needed reforms.

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

I'm kinda a fan of the puto and throwing pee. 

American sports are too "corporate" for my taste 

If the jumbo tron was flashing puto clap clap, puto clap clap,  during a water break and if they were giving out bags of pee to the first 5000 thru the turnstiles.. then yah not cool

If by ''corporate'' you mean ensure basic decency in term of how the fan behave then yeah, altough I see it as a good thing.

Edited June 26, 2022 by phil03

[MauditYvon]

Martinique and Guadeloupe can bring nice squads to the Gold Cup. Cuba now allows expatriate to play. Suriname, Jamaica and Curaçao are doing a great job to get duals.

Costa Rica seems aging, but Panama and Salvador are stepping up. Honduras is Honduras.

Just wished Mariano Diaz played for more than one game with Dominican Republic!

Oh and T&T can put a decent line up (all pros).

Top tier : Mexico, USA, Canada

Second tier : Costa Rica, Jamaïca, Panama, Honduras, Salvador

At least they’re pros tier : Suriname, Curaçao, Haiti, Cuba, T&T, Dominican Republic/Guatemala

Then you can add Guadeloupe and Martinique for a beautiful 16 teams Gold Cup, played in a different country every 4 years.

Edited June 26, 2022 by MauditYvon

[CCrTFC]

There is an overvaluation of DR and Guate here. Nicaragua is better than both at the moment.

[Unnamed Trialist]

12 hours ago, MauditYvon said:

Martinique and Guadeloupe can bring nice squads to the Gold Cup. Cuba now allows expatriate to play. Suriname, Jamaica and Curaçao are doing a great job to get duals.

Costa Rica seems aging, but Panama and Salvador are stepping up. Honduras is Honduras.

Just wished Mariano Diaz played for more than one game with Dominican Republic!

Oh and T&T can put a decent line up (all pros).

Top tier : Mexico, USA, Canada

Second tier : Costa Rica, Jamaïca, Panama, Honduras, Salvador

At least they’re pros tier : Suriname, Curaçao, Haiti, Cuba, T&T, Dominican Republic/Guatemala

Then you can add Guadeloupe and Martinique for a beautiful 16 teams Gold Cup, played in a different country every 4 years.

Didn’t know that about Mariano Díaz, thanks. He was born here in Catalonia, up the coast from Barcelona. 

I've coached kids from Dominican families, you'd think more would rise to pro ranks then feed their NT. In fact I live in a neighbourhood with a big Dominican population. One of the isdues here is they tend to be low income and don't receive support from their families either, I rarely saw parents even coaching u-14s.

I'm just trying to explain why an immigrant group may or may not acquire the skills of a sport played where they have gone. Family support is important, because many kids from Moroccan families are equally low income and do move through the football system better. 

[mrstepp817]

I feel like there are probably plenty of quality officials in USA, Mexico and Canada but is it harder for them to break in because refs from smaller nations have to be given a shot etc?? I mean you can't have 90% of the refs from three countries can you???? 

[mrstepp817]

I would like to see the Gold Cup moved around some, but there are very few countries in CONCACAF that could realistically host on their own

[JamboAl]

On 6/26/2022 at 7:22 AM, Matro25 said:

My wild prediction is that the minnows of the Caribbean will form their own confederation and operate like Oceania.

Islands like St Kitts and Aruba shouldn't be competing in CONCACAF anyways with all due respect.

That is a wild prediction and won’t happen in my lifetime.  The only way we are no longer in CONCACAF is if we move to another confederation, and if the US & Mexico won’t go, we won’t either.  And there is zero incentive to let us leave and zero incentive to have us be accepted into another confederation.  

[narduch]

A lot of nations like St. Kitts, Bermuda or Grenada simply do not have the population base to ever get any good consistently. They may pull off the odd upset or go on a run but that is it.

The nations that could be intriguing are Cuba, Nicaragua and Dominican Republic. Nicaragua is about 6 million population and other 2 around 10 million. Baseball is a major sport in all 3 but if they could get it together they could make some noise.

Haiti is another one for other reasons.