Match Thread: CONCACAF U-20 - Group Stage - Canada v Cuba - June 18, 2022 - 8:30pm ET/5:30pm PT

[Shortdutchcanuck]

9 hours ago, SpecialK said:

No - Georgi Atanasov 

Daniel Jebbison

Cruz Hastings

Lucas Dias

Luca Koleosho

Jules-Anthony Vilsaint

Jeronimo Sabbatasso

Daniel Glykis

Zuhier Salih

and others missing but remember the CPL and CSB are growing the game ! So we can lose to Cuba with no goalie 🤣😂🤣🤬🤬

Dias and Koleosho are attending club training camps trying to break through to first team minutes.  Vilsaint likely the same.  Jebbison playing for England.  Atasanov still opting for Bulgaria right now.  

The other names you mentioned are all lesser prospects than the European names who were here and played poorly (outside of Smith).   In fact CPL players Poku and Wright outplayed most of them (Smith again being the obvious exception).

We can allocate blame among coaches/players all we want, and it is definitely warranted.  You absolutely can't go 20 minutes up a man with an outfield player in goal and not put a single shot on net.

But the ongoing issue is lack of regular camps.  The games against Costa Rica were a step in the right direction.  But you need regular camps over the years to see more of the player pool in person.  And from my understanding the CSA knows this, they have just never had the funds

At the end of the day it's not CPL vs MLS vs Europe, it's having opportunities to see players in person and be better able to choose the right personnel and the right combinations on the field.  Some players just aren't ready, or their skillset doesn't fit the team, no matter how big an academy they play for or many pro minutes thet have.

 

[TOcanadafan]

The player I was most disappointed with was Costa.  I know he’s the youngest (or close to it), but he was mentioned as a standout at the April camp by Galindo.  Costa and Henry (who had a promising first 5-10 mins and then became a ghost) failed to progress the ball up the wings.  
I was most frustrated with Catavolo.  He was tasked as our creator but couldn’t deliver. And when he had a prime opportunity to score, alone in on the goalie, he didn’t take the chance.

Smith - a CB turned CDM, had the best ball skills of the lot and seemed to be the only one who could pass or progress the ball other than Franklin…now he’s a baller and one of the few who showed some fight.

Edited June 19, 2022 by TOcanadafan

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

The fact that we made Andrew Olivieri the head of all men's youth teams says it all.

If anything the World Cup Qualification has partly masked the fact that the systemic issues still remain at the CSA

If Herdman is in charge of the entire program, he runs these too. Or not? 

He's moved around his own assistants, Caldwell out, Dunfield in. He should hold the rest to a standard. But I suspect it's like a lot of jobs with responsibility, you work hard at some things and others you let go to keep the peace or to appease the group. 

[Free kick]

9 hours ago, narduch said:

Believe Cuba had a pre tournament camp in Uruguay.

They were probably much more prepared than we were heading into the game.

For me the only glimmer of hope is that maybe this team can grow into the tournament.

 

I dont think that this result and display had anything to do with preparation.  You could be totally un prepared but still be able to control the ball with a good 1st touch.   You can be totally unprepared but still be strong on the ball (ie.;  not lose the ball easily).  You could be totally unprepared but be be able to deliver well timed, well weighted passed whereby the receiver doesn't need to break stride.   These are all individual skills.  I didn't see any of that from anyone.   

Some people actually talked that we had some possession, but i didnt see that at all, unless you want to count ball possession in our own half.  

I don't mind loses at a U20 because often,  you will see someone who shows you something.  Some sign of promise from someone.   That might be the first time ever, since this forum existed,  that i watched a U20 game where i didnt see that from anybody in a Cnd shirt    Thats not the coaches fault.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Free kick

[narduch]

Just now, Unnamed Trialist said:

If Herdman is in charge of the entire program, he runs these too. Or not? 

He's moved around his own assistants, Caldwell out, Dunfield in. He should hold the rest to a standard. But I suspect it's like a lot of jobs with responsibility, you work hard at some things and others you let go to keep the peace or to appease the group. 

Herdman pawned off the youth teams to Olivieri. 

Again because he have little media coverage of the Men's National Teams it was barely covered,  if at all.

Just like how we have seen no one really call out Bontis or Cochrane except for Amy Walsh I think. Most of the regular men's bloggers/Podcaster have been awfully silent on that front.

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Free kick said:

I dont think that this result and display had anything to do with preparation.  You could be totally un prepared but still be able to control the ball.   You can be totally unprepared but still be strong on the ball (ie.;  not loose the ball easily).  you could be totally unprepared but be be able to deliver well timed, well weighted passed whereby the receiver doesnt need to break stride.   These are all individual skills.  I didnt see any of that from anyone.   

Some people actually talked that we had some possesion, but i didnt see that at all, unless you want to count ball possession in our own half.  

I dont mind loses at a U20 because often,  you will see someone who shows you something.  Some sign of promise from someone.   That might be the first time ever, since this forum existed,  that i watched a U20 game where i didnt see any from anybody.    Thats not the coaches fault.

I do think team familiarity/cohesion does matter.

Maybe after a few games we can get our shit together 

[Stryker911]

21 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

The player I was most disappointed with was Costa.  I know he’s the youngest (or close to it), but he was mentioned as a standout at the April camp by Galindo.  Costa and Henry (who had a promising first 5-10 mins and then became a ghost) failed to progress the ball up the wings.  
I was most frustrated with Catavolo.  He was tasked as our creator but couldn’t deliver. And when he had a prime opportunity to score, alone in on the goalie, he didn’t take the chance.

Smith - a CB turned CDM, had the best ball skills of the lot and seemed to be the only one who could pass or progress the ball other than Franklin…now he’s a baller and one of the few who showed some fight.

I thought the same. Galindo has been talking about Pellegrino and Costa forever. Both of them were invisible. 

Galliano also said how good Costa was in Costa Rica, but of course, he wasn't actually there. This was just based on "reports" that he got regarding the camp.

[MtlMario]

What bothered me the most was the lack of emotion on this team. A player would sky the ball into the stands from close range and it was like ' oh well I missed it' and ran back to centre field. Do not need a crystal ball to see that this team is not going anywhere. Hope I'm wrong and we beat the US next game but.......

[Free kick]

4 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

What bothered me the most was the lack of emotion on this team. A player would sky the ball into the stands from close range and it was like ' oh well I missed it' and ran back to centre field. Do not need a crystal ball to see that this team is not going anywhere. Hope I'm wrong and we beat the US next game but.......

The encouraging part for me is that the key pieces of our NT is still young enough to still be in their prime (or slightly over) by the time 2026 rolls around.   Plus there is still JMR out there.    But yes, on an individual level,  there was nothing (no one player) to take away and file from what we saw last night

Edited June 19, 2022 by Free kick

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Free kick said:

The encouraging part for me is that the key pieces of our NT is still young enough to still be in their prime (or slightly over) by the time 2026 rolls around.   Of course, there is still JMR out there, so that's encouraging.    

We are probably putting too much weight onto the value of these youth tournaments anyways.

The 2015 U-20 team that also lost to Cuba in the qualifying tournament included Larin and Adekugbe. 

We can't write these players off because of yesterday's performance 

[Free kick]

22 minutes ago, narduch said:

We are probably putting too much weight onto the value of these youth tournaments anyways.

The 2015 U-20 team that also lost to Cuba in the qualifying tournament included Larin and Adekugbe. 

We can't write these players off because of yesterday's performance 

That is definitely true.  You can indeed over rate results in these tournament.   And thats why i look  more on the individual player in these games than the result.  

Also, I am sure that there is some under the radar player out there who was not selected for this squad who can emerge and finally get noticed later.   Someone who was never overhyped on this forum.  As i see it, the process of selection for our National youth teams is one of appeasement moreso that true talent evaluation and assessment.  You have to have a certain number player from this region and that region,  From one province and that province, from these clubs and those clubs,  from Europe and domestic,  from CPL and MLS.... etc etc .   Inevitably, some talent gets overlooked when you do this.   It doesn't help that people over hype players that they have never seen becasue this contributes to the problme

Edited June 19, 2022 by Free kick

[Shway]

I keep seeing this overhyped players comments.  Who’s the overhyped guys that haven’t been seen playing?

Pelligrino, Costa, Knight-Lebel, who else?

The majority have been seen/or capable of being seen, and have performed well at their respective levels for their age.  Maybe the statement  should be that guys are overhyping the leagues? But even then I’ll disagree.

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

I keep seeing this overhyped players comments.  Who’s the overhyped guys that haven’t been seen playing?

Pelligrino, Costa, Knight-Lebel, who else?

The majority have been seen/or capable of being seen, and have performed well at their respective levels for their age.  Maybe the statement  should be that guys are overhyping the leagues? But even then I’ll disagree.

Tons.......  Anyone playing in Europe (in youth setups) whom none of us have ever seen play, and whereby there is mulitple forum discussion pages.  This is one main example of overhyping.  We dont know from most of these players if:

1. They are getting regular minutes or not.
2. Starters minutes or subs.
3. Whether they are key key contributors to their team's success or squad/role players
4. Whether or not their academy or youth setup is actually good (or reputable) one where the better domestic talent want to flow to or just your run of the mill youth side .that almost anyone can walk in to
5. We dont know how their coaches and clubs rate them in relation to their peers on the sqaud
6. Wherther or not (when they turn pro) they are slated for 1st div, 2nd div, or 3rd div.  Or maybe not ever turn pro at all
7. We dont have documented info (writeups, accounts, articles) from independent and unbias sources assessing of their skills and potential.  Unlike for example JMR whose name appears on the Guardian top 60 list.   

Edited June 19, 2022 by Free kick

[SpecialK]

These tournaments are really important. Playing in Youth World Cups are really important for your program and for attracting younger dual nationals. It’s just a pisser that Canada is not hosting these tournaments. 

[narduch]

Just now, Free kick said:

Tons.......  Anyone playing in Europe (in youth setups) whom none of us have ever seen play, and whereby there is mulitple forum discussion pages.  This is one main example of overhyping.  We dont know from most of these players if:

They are getting regular minutes or not.

Starters minutes or subs.

Whether they are key key contributors to their team's success or squad/role players

Whether or not their academy or youth setup is actually good (or reputable) one where the better domestic talent want to flow to or just your run of the mill youth side

We dont know how their coaches and clubs rate them in relation to their peers on the sqaud

Wherther or not (when they turn pro) they are slated for 1st div, 2nd div, or 3rd div.  Or maybe not ever turn pro at all

We dont have documented info from independant and unbias assessments of their skills and potential.  Unlike for example JMR whome name appears on the Guardian top 60 list.   

I do agree with your general point.

But the irony of you bringing up JMR on your last point makes me laugh a bit. Being on that list surely is more about hype than substance.

[narduch]

Just now, SpecialK said:

These tournaments are really important. Playing in Youth World Cups are really important for your program and for attracting younger dual nationals. It’s just a pisser that Canada is not hosting these tournaments. 

This is exactly what we are trying to do with Knight-Lebel, who was also chased by Wales.

[Free kick]

4 minutes ago, narduch said:

 

But the irony of you bringing up JMR on your last point makes me laugh a bit. Being on that list surely is more about hype than substance.

Thats what i am saying:  Bieing on that list is an example that its not hype with JMR.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Free kick

[narduch]

33 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Thats what i am saying:  Bieing on that list is an example that its not hype with JMR

That's like saying the Rolling Stone Top 500 Albums of All time is objective.

Edited June 19, 2022 by narduch

[Soccerpro2]

1 hour ago, Stryker911 said:

I thought the same. Galindo has been talking about Pellegrino and Costa forever. Both of them were invisible. 

Galliano also said how good Costa was in Costa Rica, but of course, he wasn't actually there. This was just based on "reports" that he got regarding the camp.

Some of our players like Costa are very young. He recently turned 17. It’s not going to be easy against other teams with 19 year olds from a physical standpoint, no matter how technically proficient they are.

Wolfsburg historically have a crappy youth set up (ask US fans, they’ve had lots of kids there, they’ll tell you). Pellegrino is playing youth for a 2. Bundesliga club. We need to pump the brakes with the constant overhyping.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Soccerpro2

[RS]

17 minutes ago, narduch said:

That's like saying the Rolling Stone Top 500 Albums of All time is subjective.

It is.

I think you mean objective.

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

That's like saying the Rolling Stone Top 500 Albums of All time is subjective.

When praised is heaped on someone,  Who am I going find more unbiased and trust worthy?  Rolling stone,  the Guardian,  the quotes in the media from the Vice president of the team?   

Or

Some internet discussion forum whereby i don't know who the individuals are behind the forum posting name are (and who started the thread) who are heaping praise on the player.  For all we know it could player agents?,  Family members of the player?,  or even the player himself?   

In some cases I am very convinced that that was the case.   

So I am going to believe the former.   The later is just hype

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Free kick

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, Free kick said:

When praised if heaped on someone,  Who am I going find more unbiased and trust worthy?  Rolling stone,  the Guardian,  the quotes in the media from the Vice president of team?   

Or

Some internet discussion forum whereby i dont know who the individuals are behind the forum posting name (and who started the thread) who are heaping praise on the player.  For all we know it could player agents?,  Family members of the player,  or even the player himself?   In some cases I am very convinced that that was the case.   

I am going to believe the former.   The later is just hype

 

I think a lot of the stuff in the MSM gets torqued by agents. Just like transfer rumours

So yes I do think that Guardian list needs to be taken with a grain of salt

[RS]

24 minutes ago, Free kick said:

When praised if heaped on someone,  Who am I going find more unbiased and trust worthy?  Rolling stone,  the Guardian,  the quotes in the media from the Vice president of team?   

Or

Some internet discussion forum whereby i dont know who the individuals are behind the forum posting name (and who started the thread) who are heaping praise on the player.  For all we know it could player agents?,  Family members of the player,  or even the player himself?   In some cases I am very convinced that that was the case.   

I am going to believe the former.   The later is just hype

 

They're both hype until proven otherwise.

Big media outlets may be in a position to be better informed (and thus make a better judgement call), but the very point of such lists is to convey a player's potential because it has yet to be realized by actual game play.

[Free kick]

18 minutes ago, narduch said:

I think a lot of the stuff in the MSM gets torqued by agents. Just like transfer rumours

So yes I do think that Guardian list needs to be taken with a grain of salt

Fair enough. I used the words independent and unbiased.    I see that its the word "unbiased" that is sticking point here.  Yes, everyone is biased including the Guardian, Rolling Stone, and senior club official.   But the word independant, i am sticking with

Edited June 19, 2022 by Free kick

[SpursFlu]

I'm going with the Cuban guys are actually 26 excuse 

That and just play our best players. Sick of all this over thinking squad rotation crap that always backfires 

Edited June 19, 2022 by SpursFlu