Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[SpecialK]

Ok …. Is the CSB a good thing …. Yes because the CSA is so incompetent and doesn’t have any smart there. The CSB helped with the CPL( the CSB and CPL are the same people)  and now the games are on mediapro and finally…. And finally we have merchandise and yes small stadium with pro teams in new markets. 
 

CSB is bad …. Because the CSA sold all their revenue streams for peanuts - 3 million dollars a year for the next 10 years- like a drug addict selling all their things for a small amount of drugs. 
 

they talk about growing the the game - ok ya they have grown the game but for who …. The owners of the CPL… the owners of CSB not for the CSA and the players of the national team. 

example  - 3 million vs 20 million - 200 million over 10 for the CSB from mediapro and that’s just one example. 
 

The players had zero say in this deal and still to this day the details of the deal haven’t been made public- what are they hiding ?? The CSB is not gonna take the prize the money Jesus . But they have robbed the CSA blind . Now the CSA needs money and the players are saying not from our prize money, You crack head. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by SpecialK

[El Diego]

5 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

What about the time I said Koleosho flew all the way to Vancouver just to bag an Earls server at Junior Hoilett's birthday party? How can that not be considered adding something substantial?

I will admit that of all your useless joking posts, that one kinda made me chuckle

[Markoaleks]

Curious With the recent sale of Forge/tiger cats by Bob Young - does that mean Stelco and Jim Lawson are also partial owners of CSB by virtue of the sale ?

 

 

[prairiecanuck]

48 minutes ago, Markoaleks said:

Curious With the recent sale of Forge/tiger cats by Bob Young - does that mean Stelco and Jim Lawson are also partial owners of CSB by virtue of the sale ?

 

 

He sold a portion of his interest, but he remains the single largest shareholder of the Hamilton Sports Group that owns the ticats and Forge FC.  He's also the chair of the company.

[prairiecanuck]

4 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Ok …. Is the CSB a good thing …. Yes because the CSA is so incompetent and doesn’t have any smart there. The CSB helped with the CPL( the CSB and CPL are the same people)  and now the games are on mediapro and finally…. And finally we have merchandise and yes small stadium with pro teams in new markets. 
 

CSB is bad …. Because the CSA sold all their revenue streams for peanuts - 3 million dollars a year for the next 10 years- like a drug addict selling all their things for a small amount of drugs. 
 

they talk about growing the the game - ok ya they have grown the game but for who …. The owners of the CPL… the owners of CSB not for the CSA and the players of the national team. 

example  - 3 million vs 20 million - 200 million over 10 for the CSB from mediapro and that’s just one example. 
 

The players had zero say in this deal and still to this day the details of the deal haven’t been made public- what are they hiding ?? The CSB is not gonna take the prize the money Jesus . But they have robbed the CSA blind . Now the CSA needs money and the players are saying not from our prize money, You crack head. 

How has the CSB robbed the CSA blind?   In 2018 Sportsnet and TSN were offering 0 dollars for TV rights.  They didn't think they could make a penny broadcasting CAN Soccer games.  The CSB offered a min of 3 mil a year.  That doesn't seem like robbing.  It seems a lot like offering 3 million more than anyone else.

The CSB offered 3 mil because they knew media pro would give them 20 mil a year for 10 years packaging their product the CPL and team Canada games as well.  The CPL plays 128 games and then there's the Canadian championship.    Team Canada plays anywhere from 6 to 10 games a year depending on the year.  On a per game basis Canada's 3 mil is still a lot higher than the other games.   The 17 mil split amongst 8 teams and the league may expand is a couple mil a team.  When you talk about stadium and training infrastructure, salaries, coaches and marketing a new league the CPL teams aren't making money hand over fist.  I doubt their making money at all  

Some people hear 20 mil and think that the CSA is missing out on 17 mil.  They're not.  That is going towards hundreds of games bein games being played in the CPL.  Would sportsnet or TSN offer more than 3 mil a year now.  Possibly. Maybe 4 or 5 mil.    They aren't paying 10 mil though.  We're a ways off from that.  The CSA received a lot more in 19 and 20 than they would have received from TSN or Sportsnet, like 6 mil more...lol.  

I still don't know the exact details of the CSB deal, but I've heard a min of 3 mil, so maybe they're getting more.  Montagliani was the one that structured the deal and I don't think it was bad deal at all.  The CSB were more rich people supporting CAN soccer in 2018 than shrewd business people that thought they would make a mint.  The CSB doesn't receive any of the prize money the teams receives.  That all goes to the CSA.  The CSB are definitely not pariahs preying on the CSA.

The big winner is Mediapro out of Europe that paid 20 mil for the CPL and CAN rights.  They probably aren't doing fantastic with CPL but holding their own.  They were are startup desperate for content and probably felt they were overpaying but needed content at the time.  They are probably in disbelief as much as anyone that they struck gold with the CAN men's national team, but they took the risk and that risk paid off. 

[SpecialK]

See that’s the issue. Is 3 million a year over 10 years the right value - me I don’t think so, it was very short cited on the CSA. 
 

the CSB and CPL are one and the same. So basically the CSA gave the media rights away for 3 million a year and private CPL owners( Bob young ) sold it for 20 million. Ok so how does that help the national team ? Bob young doesn’t need 20 million he’s a fucking billionaire. If forge loses money he rights it off on his taxes. 
 

The CSB got a great deal from the CSA. It was an horrible deal for the CSA looking at it now. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by SpecialK

[Big_M]

20 million is production costs of media pro, not cash

3 million is cash CSB is giving to CSA

CSA also has other sources of revenue, CSB is just one of them

[SpecialK]

By the way with mediapro - they are not a startup - yes they started in Spain in 1994 but they are owned by a Chinese private equity firm Orient Hontai Capital. 
 

once the firm got mediapro - they got ligue 1 and 2 and Canada. They are not some small time thing here. Also they just bought Argentina fox sports from Disney. 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by SpecialK

[CoachRetired]

Here is a couple of interesting reads on the USSF and SUM - 

The Murky Partnership Between US Soccer and MLS is Finally Coming to an End - https://urbanpitch.com/the-murky-partnership-between-us-soccer-and-mls-is-finally-coming-to-an-end/#:~:text=The United States Soccer Federation,renewing their commercial rights agreement.

 

U.S. Soccer, MLS-owned Soccer United Marketing parting ways after nearly 20 years - 
https://www.espn.com/soccer/united-states-usa/story/4393273/us-soccer-mls-owned-soccer-united-marketing-parting-ways-after-nearly-20-years

I wonder how much of CSB mirrors the old SUM?

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by CoachRetired

[Kadenge]

4 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

See that’s the issue. Is 3 million a year over 10 years the right value - me I don’t think so, it was very short cited on the CSA. 
 

the CSB and CPL are one and the same. So basically the CSA gave the media rights away for 3 million a year and private CPL owners( Bob young ) sold it for 20 million. Ok so how does that help the national team ? Bob young doesn’t need 20 million he’s a fucking billionaire. If forge loses money he rights it off on his taxes. 
 

The CSB got a great deal from the CSA. It was an horrible deal for the CSA looking at it now. 

@SpecialKyou are assuming that the CSA could have reached a similar deal with Mediapro directly. We  know that the CSA have not been great business people from past years. Sure the product is hot now, but what if the CMNT flunked and did not qualify for Qatar? No one on this board thought it was a slam dunk let alone finishing 1st.  I'm certainly not defending the CSA, but risk and reward are related. The CSA decided to presumably  mitigate their downside risk for what at the time seemed a good return. I'm just speculating here btw as we really don't know until we have all the details.

[SpecialK]

10 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

@SpecialKyou are assuming that the CSA could have reached a similar deal with Mediapro directly. We  know that the CSA have not been great business people from past years. Sure the product is hot now, but what if the CMNT flunked and did not qualify for Qatar? No one on this board thought it was a slam dunk let alone finishing 1st.  I'm certainly not defending the CSA, but risk and reward are related. The CSA decided to presumably  mitigate their downside risk for what at the time seemed a good return. I'm just speculating here btw as we really don't know until we have all the details.

Yes they could have. If they had the right people and vision for it. I believe that’s what the players want too. In 2018 CSA was bleeding for money, Victor also wanted the 2026 World Cup. To get the World Cup Canada needed a league. That’s where Young and the rest come in. Now conspiracy theory here , I bet Victor said OK will give you the media rights and control of all commercial assets for 3 million a year X10 year with an option for another 10 as the sweetening of the deal for the CFL owners to create the CPL and victor got his World Cup and right after he took off for FIFA literally right after that. I’m a person that doesn’t believe in coincidence. 
 

it really doesn’t sound like from listening to the podcasts the CSA wasn’t expecting Canada to get this good so fast and make the 2022 World Cup. I don’t think they really knew or saw the full value of the team. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by SpecialK

[kohanz]

Here's a thought: with the CSA being run by people that can be described as volunteers or part-time employees, did they ever stand a chance negotiating a "fair" deal with any all-in, full-time for-profit entity? It feels like sheep and wolves. Doesn't matter whether it's CSB or someone else - it seems like an inherent problem of having an underfunded association that is run that way the CSA has been.

[Colonel Green]

44 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

it really doesn’t sound like from listening to the podcasts the CSA wasn’t expecting Canada to get this good so fast and make the 2022 World Cup.

Nobody was expecting Canada to get this good this fast. When this deal was struck the team was terrible.

[TOcanadafan]

21 minutes ago, kohanz said:

Here's a thought: with the CSA being run by people that can be described as volunteers or part-time employees, did they ever stand a chance negotiating a "fair" deal with any all-in, full-time for-profit entity? It feels like sheep and wolves. Doesn't matter whether it's CSB or someone else - it seems like an inherent problem of having an underfunded association that is run that way the CSA has been.

Don’t assume that the people running the show wanted a fair deal and that they are so naive.  I’m sure some of these board members know what they are doing when it comes to benefitting their own pockets and future interests, especially Mr. Bontis.

[ted]

10 hours ago, Bison44 said:

TED....maybe you can clear this up, because there are plenty of guys on here saying the exact opposite, that CSB is getting a cut of the prize pool.  Where would you get the info to clear this up one way or the other?? This isnt like the usual i think Altidore is washed up opinion disagreement....there should be real black and white proof eh??  

I have no inside knowledge and would love to see some actual transparency. All I am going from is published information since 2018 when they started CSB and the CanPL.

The confusing thing is the $10M the CSA will get from FIFA. $1.5M is for tournament preparation while the bulk is the guaranteed prize money for the group stage. The details of what sort of cut the CSB gets from the $1.5 for games in Canada would be useful to know but it cannot be the bulk of the money.

The CSB owns the promotional/TV rights to CSA teams in CANADA and has been paying a fee for that for years. How would prize pool money, earned in World Cup play, be included in a deal to lease the promotional and TV rights?
The money is paid from FIFA to the National Association involved. How would you "sell" a possibility? That would literally be gambling.

I suppose anything is possible, but CSB is crucial to the future of pro soccer in Canada and unless something has gone horribly wrong from the idiots in charge of the CSA, CSB has nothing to do with the prize money the players will earn as a team.

[BradMack]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

@SpecialKyou are assuming that the CSA could have reached a similar deal with Mediapro directly. We  know that the CSA have not been great business people from past years. Sure the product is hot now, but what if the CMNT flunked and did not qualify for Qatar? No one on this board thought it was a slam dunk let alone finishing 1st.  I'm certainly not defending the CSA, but risk and reward are related. The CSA decided to presumably  mitigate their downside risk for what at the time seemed a good return. I'm just speculating here btw as we really don't know until we have all the details.

 

53 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Yes they could have. If they had the right people and vision for it. I believe that’s what the players want too. In 2018 CSA was bleeding for money, Victor also wanted the 2026 World Cup. To get the World Cup Canada needed a league. That’s where Young and the rest come in. Now conspiracy theory here , I bet Victor said OK will give you the media rights and control of all commercial assets for 3 million a year X10 year with an option for another 10 as the sweetening of the deal for the CFL owners to create the CPL and victor got his World Cup and right after he took off for FIFA literally right after that. I’m a person that doesn’t believe in coincidence. 
 

it really doesn’t sound like from listening to the podcasts the CSA wasn’t expecting Canada to get this good so fast and make the 2022 World Cup. I don’t think they really knew or saw the full value of the team. 

SpecialK you are very Anti CSA and CSB it seems but you are making wild theories without an understading of mediapro or the CSB's business. I feel like with more clear information about how their business works you would not be so closed minded. There is not a chance the CSA would get a 200 million dollar deal for media rights. Let me break it down.

Firstly, the CMNT draws anywhere between 600k and 1.3M viewers for their games in WCQ. That is heavily dependant on the night the game is on and the opponents. Soccer is not a super valuable TV advertising sport because of the nature of the game not having breaks for ads. Sportsnet & TSN would most likely see gross profit at about 500k on the extreme high end for WCQ games against teams like the USA, Mexico, Jamaica. Now, if it wasn't for mediapro, they would need to invest in actually producing the game, which is a massive cost, especially in international soccer where they either need to pay for a foreign feed, or travel to produce themselves. during 2022 and late 2021 its possible they mightve paid around 200/300K for the rights to broadcast the game and been able to make money on that, but thats most likely the absolute high point and might not even be realistic. Something like 50/100K per game might be more reasonable at this point in time given the lack of options. 

Second, if you're suggesting they could've gotten a deal with mediapro themselves, theres even less of a chance of that happening. Mediapro only sees value in this deal as it believes it can break into the canadian television market, which is extremely hard to do. You need to have a certain % of canadian content and as a soccer network everywhere else, the only way they could get that content was the CPL. The CPL is a major part of the deal because it is consistent content, which is key for a channel. You cant own a network that has, at a high point 30 games per year (Vcup, MNT, WNT, Youth) CPL was absolutely key in this deal. CPL = CSB. The CMNT is much more valuable on a per game basis for Mediapro, yes, but as onesoccer, you need a flagship league just for the sheer number of games to be able to exist.

The third point, and this is absolutely key... The CSA would've been absolutely broke through covid had it not been for the 3mil/year. No money for camps, not money for qualifying, no money for herdmans prep. They had literally 0 dollars coming in from the elite programs, and a super limited amount of money coming in from youth registrations. Its super likely the MNT doesn't make the WC under terrible conditions like those. And then they recieve no money from SN or TSN because nobody gives a shit about the team, like the last 30 years.  

[SpecialK]

I am very Anti-CSA because they are a bunch of clowns running around. The CSB I’m on the fence. I don’t trust the CSB why because how secret they are and I have read their hands are not just in media rights. For example they got the gatorade deal but again no details on it. Plus why did Mitchell get so pissy and defensive before when Rollins was digging into the details. I really do think that a billionaire , bunch of business people who are smart took advantage of the CSA because the CSA was desperate Victor wanted his World Cup and the board is full of dumb non-business people. 

do I think the CSA could’ve got a TV deal worth $20 million based on Canadian national team  content  no I don’t . Do I think they could’ve got a better deal than $3 million yes. Because right now that 3 million dollar deal is hurting our program and Association. It has tied our hands behide your backs. This whole blaming COVID for being broke is bullshit- just plan bullshit lies why - The Canadian government bailed them out and pay 75% of wages plus grants and loans for nonprofits, FIFA also had massive loans and grants that they were giving out to all associations who asked for them. 
Do I believe that the CSB/that deal was created to help Victor get his World Cup yes I do. 

[SpecialK]

And when you go to link that announcement from the CSA website - it doesn’t work - the removed it. Why are they are hiding that press release 

[Shway]

There’s been a lot of recent “broken links” on the CSA.

[SpecialK]

https://thedeepdive.ca/understanding-canadian-soccer-business-the-halting-of-play-amid-world-cup-qualifier/

[Wingback6]

Where was the federal government in all of this? Our virtue signalling bum of a PM has no problem calling out the CSA when they want to host a game with a nation that, outside of Canada, has GREAT footballing pedigree, again, wondering WHO exactly he was pandering too. But when it comes to the health of the GAME ITSELF in this country. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Wingback6

[SpecialK]

So I am just a simple guy, but common sense in me make me believe it’s way more than just media rights with that statement “representing commercial assets and inventory for marquee soccer properties in Canada", including "all corporate partnerships and broadcast rights related to Canada Soccer's core assets including its national teams, along with all rights associated with the CPL".

[SpecialK]

3 minutes ago, Wingback6 said:

Where was the federal government in all of this? Our virtue signalling cuck of a PM has no problem calling out the CSA when they want to host a game with a nation that, outside of Canada, has GREAT footballing pedigree, again, wondering WHO exactly he was pandering too. But when it comes to the health of the GAME ITSELF in this country. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

If the federal government gets more involved that would not be good!!! FIFA really does not take kind to governments getting involved with associations. Fine and sanction associations because of government interference. 
 

now because the CSA gets government money. The government could demand on audit

[Soro17]

21 minutes ago, Wingback6 said:

Where was the federal government in all of this? Our virtue signalling cuck of a PM has no problem calling out the CSA when they want to host a game with a nation that, outside of Canada, has GREAT footballing pedigree, again, wondering WHO exactly he was pandering too. But when it comes to the health of the GAME ITSELF in this country. Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

Sorry, I am confused. Why do we want the federal government involved? What would they bring to the table and on what basis? I can’t see anything useful coming from government involvement. 

[Wingback6]

15 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

If the federal government gets more involved that would not be good!!! FIFA really does not take kind to governments getting involved with associations. Fine and sanction associations because of government interference. 
 

now because the CSA gets government money. The government could demand on audit

I mean, isn't an audit getting involved?