Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[Mihairokov]

1 hour ago, Califax said:

I challenge you on the marketing. TSN took the WJHC and turned it into must see tv. It was an after thought tournament until they got their hands on it. Good marketing can inflate a mediocre product.

If TSN cared about putting marketing dollars behind it, with their pulpit and platform, they could have created a massive buzz behind this run. 

Onesoccer could not even preemptively answer people’s question:  “where do I watch the games”, because their pulpit was dog poop. 

And I disagree with your last point. I’d far rather have games properly marketed, and available to the most people possible on par with major sports news, than a boutique pay for play channel with extra repetitive vignettes to kill time in 3 hour pre game show. 

I think it goes without saying that TSN promoting a hockey product for two weeks over the holidays is an easier sell than Canadian soccer through the summer months. It helps when the U20s win for five or whatever years in a row like they did in the 90s and 00s. Even so, that project took a decade-plus to reach a wider mass appeal, much of it helped by the NHL Lockout in 2004-2005 and the All-Star team Canada was able to assemble that year. I'm not convinced TSN has the same interest in creating its own product as they did back then - how has their CFL promotion gone?

There's not much sense what-if'ing over the 2022 WC run. We can't change the past. It's just as uncertain that TSN would have given a damn just as much as it was uncertain that Canada would have won in Port-au-Prince or qualified at all. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

We'll have the disagree on the last point, then. Other than reaching more casuals I see no inherit benefit to being on a legacy broadcaster more interested in NCAA sports or miscellaneous talking-head shows. We don't owe TSN/SN anything. As for pre-show, who cares? If you don't want to watch repetitive vignettes on a loop nobody is forcing you to.

Why do people stress that OS wis pay-for-play when TSN/SN cost money, too? It's seems biased to refer to one as paywalled when all options are paywalled. It's not as if legacy broadcasters are free to view.

Edited January 27 by Mihairokov

[costarg]

9 hours ago, masster said:

I know for a fact this is incorrect. Lots of work was going on by CPL owners behind the scenes to establish a women's league. But then Matheson's premature announcement with the help of the Whitecaps (who were only too willing to kneecap a CPL initiative) stole the headlines and made for an impossible PR scenario. Competing against an ex-CWNT player would have not gone down well in the public eye.

Things have been rather quiet on this front, so I hope that positive collaborative talks are going on behind the scenes.

I would appreciate if someone could explain to me like I'm 5 how a women's league would work and succeed.  Of course it'd be ideal and nice to have, but I just don't see how it could sustain itself.  What am I missing, I just can't connect the dots?  Even the men's league has been hanging by a thread, how can we even consider adding a women's league.  Men's teams are already fighting for the few scraps of marketing dollars, attendance and TV.  Where will the fans come from?  Will people stop watching EU mens leagues to watch the women's league?  I just don't see where the fans time and dollars will come from.  Would love to understand if someone could enlighten me.

[Califax]

35 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

I think it goes without saying that TSN promoting a hockey product for two weeks over the holidays is an easier sell than Canadian soccer through the summer months. It helps when the U20s win for five or whatever years in a row like they did in the 90s and 00s. Even so, that project took a decade-plus to reach a wider mass appeal, much of it helped by the NHL Lockout in 2004-2005 and the All-Star team Canada was able to assemble that year. I'm not convinced TSN has the same interest in creating its own product as they did back then - how has their CFL promotion gone?

There's not much sense what-if'ing over the 2022 WC run. We can't change the past. It's just as uncertain that TSN would have given a damn just as much as it was uncertain that Canada would have won in Port-au-Prince or qualified at all. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say.

We'll have the disagree on the last point, then. Other than reaching more casuals I see no inherit benefit to being on a legacy broadcaster more interested in NCAA sports or miscellaneous talking-head shows. We don't owe TSN/SN anything. As for pre-show, who cares? If you don't want to watch repetitive vignettes on a loop nobody is forcing you to.

Why do people stress that OS wis pay-for-play when TSN/SN cost money, too? It's seems biased to refer to one as paywalled when all options are paywalled. It's not as if legacy broadcasters are free to view.

You don’t see how those loops make the whole product look cheaper and less polished? It’s a turn off. But if you think casuals don’t matter, how do we make soccer bigger? 

The  casuals in Canada watch hockey, the casuals in Italy watch soccer. The casuals move products and elect governments. The casuals are the bell weather for success. 

And games may not be free on tv, but they’re accessible. It’s easier to stumble across something on a basic cable tv package, or in a bar, rather than paying a months subscription fee or having to text your footy knowledgeable friends about how to get access 

 

[Mihairokov]

18 minutes ago, Califax said:

You don’t see how those loops make the whole product look cheaper and less polished? It’s a turn off. But if you think casuals don’t matter, how do we make soccer bigger? 

The  casuals in Canada watch hockey, the casuals in Italy watch soccer. The casuals move products and elect governments. The casuals are the bell weather for success. 

And games may not be free on tv, but they’re accessible. It’s easier to stumble across something on a basic cable tv package, or in a bar, rather than paying a months subscription fee or having to text your footy knowledgeable friends about how to get access 

 

I don't think those vignette loops are any better or worse than the filler content that lives on TSN/SN. MLB misplays from 2022 whatever. How do you feel about legacy broadcasters lifting American coverage of meme sports like pickleball or cornhole rather than prioritizing Canadian sport? USports may as well die and they wouldn't even blink - we've got American talking heads talking about NFL for the next four hours! There's no interest in promoting or building Canadian sport because there isn't a need to. Some of this is very chicken-and-egg.

I didn't say that casuals don't matter - what I take issue with is this perpetual focus on gathering casuals together for a product when our focus should really be on improving the quality of that product as the priority. Generally that means a really slow and gradual buildup on focusing on gameday, facilities, and general quality of the sport, sort of the general grassroots. This has more to do with CPL than CMNT, but I think it can still apply under most circumstances.

It's really difficult for me to try and elaborate on this but it's very tiring to read post after post for half a decade (not you specifically) lamenting OS, running under the assumption that our legacy broadcasters are a silver bullet for soccer in this country. Yeah, more eyeballs would be neat, and maybe make the product feel "bigger", but it rubs me the same way as attendance threads rub me when the overriding implication is always that that bigger crowd sizes are automatically better with no other real analysis or thought. I'm not trying to pile on, but after so many years of neglect I don't think crawling back to legacy broadcasters is all it's cracked up to be, even if that means Valour might inexplicably be on at a bar in Cape Breton at 1AM.

Edited January 27 by Mihairokov

[Bison44]

56 minutes ago, costarg said:

I would appreciate if someone could explain to me like I'm 5 how a women's league would work and succeed.  Of course it'd be ideal and nice to have, but I just don't see how it could sustain itself.  What am I missing, I just can't connect the dots?  Even the men's league has been hanging by a thread, how can we even consider adding a women's league.  Men's teams are already fighting for the few scraps of marketing dollars, attendance and TV.  Where will the fans come from?  Will people stop watching EU mens leagues to watch the women's league?  I just don't see where the fans time and dollars will come from.  Would love to understand if someone could enlighten me.

Shhhhhhhhh.  Ixnay on the Womanay talkay eh?  

I'm sure it will be done smarter, have more fans, better owners, good stadiums etc better than the men and wont run into any of the problems all the mens leagues have run into.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

55 minutes ago, costarg said:

I would appreciate if someone could explain to me like I'm 5 how a women's league would work and succeed...

By spending significantly less money than CanPL has and keeping travel more sensible with a strong focus on regional conferences in the Windsor-Quebec corridor in the east and BC and Alberta in the west. Not holding my breath that they'll actually do that though as they seem to think the world owes them a living. Wouldn't be so quick to write it off because the women's league angle might actually work better as a selling point than York United has in the GTA, which admittedly is setting the bar quite low.

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

By spending significantly less money than CanPL has and keeping travel more sensible with a strong focus on regional conferences in the Windsor-Quebec corridor in the east and BC and Alberta in the west. Not holding my breath that they'll actually do that though as they seem to think the world owes them a living. Wouldn't be so quick to write it off because the women's league angle might actually work better as a selling point than York United has in the GTA, which admittedly is setting the bar quite low.

FYI, Matheson had initially promised a league that could compete with NWSL. I'm waiting for your comments about their delusions of grandeur 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^normally wouldn't respond to this guy but did he even read my post? I literally already did highlight that I think the Project 8 people have inflated expectations.

[phil03]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

I would appreciate if someone could explain to me like I'm 5 how a women's league would work and succeed. 

I am not saying we necessarely should have started with the women's league first, or that starting one right now would necessarily succeed, but I do think a women's league would have at least two advantages over a men's one in Canada:

I. Generally people, and people with a lot of money in particular, are more willing to see women's sports as a cause and/or a service to the community than men's sports. Essentially, you still do have a descent chunk of investors who see supporting women's sports as more about doing the right thing in general, and supporting gender equality in particular, or at least getting good PR for it, then making money.

Now, arguably we are starting to transition away from that, and more toward a reality where women's sports would be sustained by the same business/service to the community/hobby for rich people then men's sports (which I'd argue is a good thing and show how much progress women's sports have made in the last twenty years say) but we are still early in said transition IMO. That means that they'd probably be more tolerance for losing money with a women's league, both in terms of amount and in terms of how long it would take for the investment to pay off.

II. While bad in and of itself the wages gap between male and female players might allow a women's league in Canada to attract some players who regularly play for CWNT and market their clubs around these players. In fact, that's precisely what Project 8 plans to do.

CPL clubs simply can't afford to do the same thing with players from the CMNT due to the wages they command. In fact, Canada's situation is actually far from uncommon in that regard: most countries with national teams worth a damn usually have only a handful of clubs able to attract players from said national teams, whose lineups are usually dominated by players having gone abroad to play at a higher level.

Edited January 27 by phil03

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, phil03 said:

Generally people, and people with a lot of money in particular, are more willing to see women's sports as a cause and/or a service to the community than men's sports. Essentially, you still do have a descent chunk of investors who see supporting women's sports as more about doing the right thing in general, and supporting gender equality in particular, or at least getting good PR for it, then making money.

I think this is partly true but I don’t see it as really contributing to the sustainability of a league.   A lot of people like the idea of a women’s league but I am skeptical that the sentiment will get sufficient numbers of people willing to regularly spend their Saturday afternoons and Wednesday evenings in the stands. Tuning in to watch the CWNT play in a high profile tourney like the Olympics is a very different proposition to watching a club team grind out a whole season from the stands.  It’s why I have never felt that the level of national interest in the CWNT at peak events will translate into ongoing support for a pro league.  The equity dynamic definitely might sustain some corporate patience for any short term losses, but I just don’t see it driving long term interest in the league.  The one caveat is that the league could be sustained for quite a while if the equity factor drives a level of “altruistic” corporate investment that is disproportionate to actual interest.  

[Colonel Green]

4 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think this is partly true but I don’t see it as really contributing to the sustainability of a league.   A lot of people like the idea of a women’s league but I am skeptical that the sentiment will get sufficient numbers of people willing to regularly spend their Saturday afternoons and Wednesday evenings in the stands. Tuning in to watch the CWNT play in a high profile tourney like the Olympics is a very different proposition to watching a club team grind out a whole season from the stands.  It’s why I have never felt that the level of national interest in the CWNT at peak events will translate into ongoing support for a pro league.  The equity dynamic definitely might sustain some corporate patience for any short term losses, but I just don’t see it driving long term interest in the league.  The one caveat is that the league could be sustained for quite a while if the equity factor drives a level of “altruistic” corporate investment that is disproportionate to actual interest.  

The PWHL’s launch has gone extremely well in terms of ticket sales, so they can take encouragement from that — even if, obviously, hockey tickets have a much longer track record of saleability here.

[red card]

4 hours ago, Califax said:

I’m not conflating, I just may not have explained it properly. 

Obviously if you compare two different eras one shit and one good, you’ll get different results.

I challenge you on the marketing. TSN took the WJHC and turned it into must see tv. It was an after thought tournament until they got their hands on it. Good marketing can inflate a mediocre product. 

If TSN cared about putting marketing dollars behind it, with their pulpit and platform, they could have created a massive buzz behind this run. 

Onesoccer could not even preemptively answer people’s question:  “where do I watch the games”, because their pulpit was dog poop. 

And I disagree with your last point. I’d far rather have games properly marketed, and available to the most people possible on par with major sports news, than a boutique pay for play channel with extra repetitive vignettes to kill time in 3 hour pre game show. 

It's not the 90s tv world anymore. Back when cable was growing subs as penetration hit 90% of households, TSN had the money to invest to grow a property like World Juniors or the CFL. Though, it was no guarantee as CSL failed. And they didn't inflate a mostly mediocre product that was CMNT in the 90s.

Today, TSN/SN are in less than 50% of households. The majority demo watching is over 55, a group that grew up not caring about football. Bell/Rogers have cut their media division's budget. So, the days of spending money to market a non-tier 1 sports property are over.

So with less reach, wrong demos and fragmented viewing habits none of the non-tier 1 Canadian properties that have been shown on TSN have broken through. They still aren't getting paid for rights. This season, TSN eliminated regular season CHL games on their linear channels since no bump in audience or sponsors seen. Instead of sharing ad revenue showing CHL for 3 hours/week, they can keep it all by showing an ESPN feed or a repackaged highlights show.

Even when there was money, they demurred in backing the CWNT. There was a window of opportunity post 2012 Olympics to hosting WWC 2015 but TSN failed to show more than half of the women's team friendlies. Bell did become a Canada Soccer sponsor but that was more to become a FIFA service provider for WWC 15. Bell didn't do any CWNT related marketing and didn't renew their sponsorship post WWC 15.

 

[Big_M]

Very sad period for CPL...Mediapro did the production + paid around $25M over five years helping the league survive...no one will offer such a deal at this point...not sure theres even a 2024 season at this point...need to set up production in under three months which will be extremely difficult...and if Mediapro wins that $50m lawsuit its likely the end of CSB and maybe even CPL

Also very likely that some ownership groups look to sell + possibly more uncertainty or opposition concerning the proposed hailfax stadium

Anyway for CPL to survive they also need a shift in operations to cut costs...which likely means moving to east-west asap which means more teams asap which means lowering expansion fees and stadium requirements

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, Big_M said:

Very sad period for CPL...Mediapro did the production + paid around $25M over five years helping the league survive...no one will offer such a deal at this point...not sure theres even a 2024 season at this point...

Think things are too far along in terms of players signing contracts and arranging stadium dates etc for this year's schedule for the 2024 season not to happen but if you were Dean Shillington do you want to sign the new five year lease for Starlight Stadium for the second club you own that you don't really want? Something to keep an eye on is how many multiyear player contracts are signed from now on as rosters are completed.

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, Big_M said:

Very sad period for CPL...Mediapro did the production + paid around $25M over five years helping the league survive...no one will offer such a deal at this point...not sure theres even a 2024 season at this point...need to set up production in under three months which will be extremely difficult...and if Mediapro wins that $50m lawsuit its likely the end of CSB and maybe even CPL

Also very likely that some ownership groups look to sell + possibly more uncertainty or opposition concerning the proposed hailfax stadium

Anyway for CPL to survive they also need a shift in operations to cut costs...which likely means moving to east-west asap which means more teams asap which means lowering expansion fees and stadium requirements

I hate being a CPL pessimist but if CSB is moving this way without at least some contigency, and without the concurrence of the clubs, this could be the scenario.

[Copes]

I see a lot of doom and gloom and I'm worried about my ability to watch games in Newfoundland... 

...but I am far from "league is facing imminent death" crisis mode. There have been comments / reports that CPL is talking to TSN and Sportsnet. Derek Martin, owner of the Wandrers, tweeted out something to the effect of "everything will be alright". Let's pump the breaks mourning the dead. So far it's only been a weekend since the news broke. 

[CanadaFan123]

The player movement this offseason certainly doesn’t point to doom and gloom either. 

[El Hombre]

So for the last 3 years, the only thing I have heard about the CSB is that they are a group of Machiavellian boardroom hawks that were able to lock the CSA into an ironclad contract giving them millions of dollars off the backs of our poor players and have guaranteed to allow them to make money hand over fist for the next 10 years.  And now the story is that these titans of industry have decided, less than two months after securing a new ownership group and international partner for one of its franchises, to risk everything by randomly dropping their broadcast partner on a Thursday in January without a backup plan?

I've never seen a company drop a supplier and then say: "Okay, what do we do now?".  There are two possibilities: they are either super incompetent or maybe there has been something in the works already.  Just because the world finds out about this on Thursday doesn't mean this hasn't been discussed ad nauseum behind closed doors.  And if the MediaPro money has been so crucial to the CPL's survival, I'm betting the $0 they got from them last year really went a long way to stabilizing VFC and attracting new owners.

But maybe I'm just an optimist.

[Kent]

https://northerntribune.ca/new-details-emerge-in-canada-soccer-business-mediapro-dispute/
 

https://canadiansoccerdaily.com/2024/01/27/cpl-csb-canada-soccer-opinion/?amp=1
 

I don’t think those articles have been posted here yet.

On the doom and gloom scenario, one of those articles mentions Media Pro’s legal case against CSB is a 50 page document. Although we heard from CSB first, it could be that it was actually Media Pro that got the wheels in motion first but then CSB claimed to be the ones orchestrating the break up to save face. If that’s the case that may mean they don’t have someone better lined up.

The only thing that is giving me any sort of hope is Derek Martin’s tweet claiming it will be fine. Hopefully that isn’t misplaced confidence.

[Aird25]

9 hours ago, Big_M said:

Anyway for CPL to survive they also need a shift in operations to cut costs...which likely means moving to east-west asap which means more teams asap which means lowering expansion fees and stadium requirements

Don't they already own and operate all the League Ones?

[narduch]

Just started listening to the Footy Prime episode on this topic. 

First thing Sharman says is that they heard murmuring for a bit that Media Pro was either pulling out or were being pushed out by CSA

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Kent said:

...The only thing that is giving me any sort of hope is Derek Martin’s tweet claiming it will be fine. Hopefully that isn’t misplaced confidence.

What's he going to say when he is trying to obtain $40 million from the city council for a permanent stadium? To say the timing of this news is unfortunate from that standpoint would be an understatement.

Given Mediapro's argument revolves around the alleged minimum number of games over ten years, it's maybe not a coincidence that this news broke not long after the full 2024 schedule was announced. Maybe they felt they needed that officially announced to prove it is now impossible for CanPL to hit that number by 2028.

Edited January 28 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

37 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What's he going to say when he is trying to obtain $40 million from the city council for a permanent stadium?

Why would he still be pushing a permanent stadium if there was uncertainty around the league/club? Same for Pacific apparently negotiating for RAP improvements 

Edited January 28 by Aird25

[Watchmen]

39 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Why would he still be pushing a permanent stadium if there was uncertainty around the league/club? Same for Pacific apparently negotiating for RAP improvements 

Well, it's not their money. I'm not saying they think the league is in danger, simply that they need to continue with business as usual and the risk on any new stadium/improvements is on the cities. So the question might be, does this give the cities pause on any new stadium/renovations? I think they at least have to see what the new broadcast deal is.

[narduch]