Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[narduch]

8 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Regardless, what does CSB have to do with it, and why is it being discussed in this thread, now?

CSB are the Canada Soccer Boogeymen now.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, nolando said:

It's ludicrous that Vancouver gets ignored as a venue choice for the men...

Rightly or wrongly, is it not the larger timezone difference for European based players that makes the CMNT reluctant?

[nolando]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Rightly or wrongly, is it not the larger timezone difference for European based players that makes the CMNT reluctant?

It's always the excuse. I mean it has some merit but, c'mon , throw us the occasional bone, especially when it makes sense financially and attendance-wise.

[sandman]

The last time the CMNT came to the west coast they started an international incident, and inflamed one of the largest immigrant groups in the area. Then they cancelled the game. Couldn't get worse in theory. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

40 minutes ago, sandman said:

The last time the CMNT came to the west coast they started an international incident, and inflamed one of the largest immigrant groups in the area. Then they cancelled the game. Couldn't get worse in theory. 

There is something in the air in Vancouver that makes it not worth going unless you want trouble. There's a book about it but I forgot who wrote it, Rabindranath Tagore, Khali Gibran or Priyanka Chopra.

[red card]

7 hours ago, Free kick said:

Juegos Panamericanos 2023 (results-santiago2023.org)

Looks like we didn't send a team to the Pan Am games, usually its a u23 event.  .  We didn't send a Men's team nor a Women's team.    The Pan Am games is one of those very rare opportunities to play good competition (in a meaningful - non friendly event) that we so rarely get.   Should someone ask the CSB why?   Or who should be asked?  

The men didn't qualify given their performance at the most recent Concacaf u20.

The women did qualify but couldn't send a senior team given not knowing if required to play in Gold Cup qualifiers and tourney also lasts beyond the FIFA window. Difficult to send a u20 team as US colleges don't like releasing players in the last weeks of season/first week of playoffs. 

Could have sent a u17 team but given financial constraints and questions about being competitive likely resulted in a no go. US pool is big enough that they can sent a u19 team of non-college players but it still was the first time they sent a women's team since 2007. 

[Free kick]

1 hour ago, red card said:

The men didn't qualify given their performance at the most recent Concacaf u20.

The women did qualify but couldn't send a senior team given not knowing if required to play in Gold Cup qualifiers and tourney also lasts beyond the FIFA window. Difficult to send a u20 team as US colleges don't like releasing players in the last weeks of season/first week of playoffs. 

Could have sent a u17 team but given financial constraints and questions about being competitive likely resulted in a no go. US pool is big enough that they can sent a u19 team of non-college players but it still was the first time they sent a women's team since 2007. 

Thanks!  That makes a lot sense.  I wasnt sure that there was a qualifying process for the Pan Am games.   And i was curious as to how they determine who goes and doesn’t.  Moreso given that we didn’t send a mens nor womens basketball team (same for volleyball) either and both of those teams are always in the mix for top spots in the americas.  It would make sense for the basketball teams to voluntarily take a pass.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Free kick

[SF]

15 hours ago, Wasp said:

Their insistence on playing every home game at BMO, in my opinion, is one of the main factors in the weak ticket sales. Toronto has the Leafs and Raptors just starting up their seasons, and CANMT games have lost their "event" status since there have been so many there in the past 3-5 years. Why not have them play at Stade Saputo? Or BC Place? The former is the only other MLS-level grass field in the country, and the latter at least holds MLS matches on the regular and can expand into the upper decks if there is a lot of demand. I get the travel concerns with playing in Vancouver, but the fact that they have never played in Montreal at Stade Saputo is pretty inexcusable. International airport, closer to Europe than Toronto, and MLS-level grass field and training facilities. They really need to start playing games elsewhere than Toronto.

Fair enough, but how does this explain how the women's team has been a hot ticket?  

Or maybe we should be having more woman's team games (which, I suppose, we are doing this and next month).

Just strikes me that the woman's tickets are hot and the mens tickets are less hot.

Not expressing a view, just making an observation.

[SF]

15 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not sure how you are making this argument.  This is an exchange of good or services - not a one-way subsidy.   The CSA is getting something very tangible out of the transaction - they aren’t generously providing funds to some NGO.   Framing this sort of negotiated arrangement as anything other than a negotiated business deal seems pretty misleading.  

My view is that it is an egregiously mispriced of exchange of good/services and, as such, a de facto subsidy.

What the CSA is getting out of this transaction is tangible, but materially less tangible if they had negotiated this with full competence and/or good faith.

Let me ask this - I buy a bag of milk in Ontario for $3 a litre. Is this a proper exchange of money for a good? Sure - but is it subsidized? You bet it is - absent this subsidy I would probably pay half that amount.  And, by the way, dairy farmers don't get a cheque from the government. They only get a cheque from the consumer, but the price is controlled by the government.

All of which is to say that price manipulation/subsidies can come in many forms. The best argument that the CSB deal is not a subsidy (or a transfer of CSA funds to a professional league) is that the CSA were historically naive.  Which may be true, but as a fan of Canadian soccer it doesn't make me feal any better.

Honestly, this is either economics 101 (it's a subsidy) or finance 101 (the CSA got its ass handed to it in a business transaction).  Both suck.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

10 hours ago, SF said:

...The best argument that the CSB deal is not a subsidy (or a transfer of CSA funds to a professional league) is that the CSA were historically naive...

Think we all know it happened because CanPL was Victor Montagliani's pet hobby horse and the top officeholders at the CSA had way too much control over decision making at the time with no proper oversight by the board. The flat fee with no percentage over a certain threshold was clearly all about deliberately giving the CSB investors a 2026 related pot of gold at the end of the money losing first decade rainbow that otherwise would have been expected to go primarily to the national team program and its players.

[VinceA]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Think we all know it happened because CanPL was Victor Montagliani's pet hobby horse and the top officeholders at the CSA had way too much control over decision making at the time with no proper oversight by the board. The flat fee with no percentage over a certain threshold was clearly all about deliberately giving the CSB investors a 2026 related pot of gold at the end of the money losing first decade rainbow that otherwise would have been expected to go primarily to the national team program and its players.

I love that this post has three different reactions to it

[Bigandy]

On 10/27/2023 at 4:30 PM, SF said:

I think the audited financial statements of the CSA are quite clear that it pays a $1 million direct annual fee to the CSB. It's right there in the footnotes. 

I suppose we can debate whether the trading of broadcast and sponsor rights for a fixed fee is a fairly priced market transaction or a de facto subsidy. 

But, let me ask this - would the CPL have been launched absent the CSB deal? Would it still exist?  If the answer to either is "no", I think we're pretty clearly talking about a subsidy.

I will add that the cost to the CSA for this transaction/subsidy is only going to get larger as Canada moves toward hosting a World Cup (which is one the points Amy Walsh was trying to make while being dismissed).

And - one more time - I don't blame the CSB. They took on a pile of risk and have made material investments in Canadian soccer.  Good and brave things.  What I take issue with is how they have been able to finance these investments and the incredible lack of transparency from the CSA.

 

Im not sure what you are talkign about with a fee? The financial statemtents state that CSA pays CPL 350k a year. Am i missing the 1 million CSB fee, because I cant find it? (I 100% support the CSA paying 350k a year so that we have the CPL and can host a WC. Theres probably no better value option for player development. paying 350k on youth teams likely wont get the returns that having the CPL will.  

There are many companies who only have 1 or 2 clients. That doesnt make their business efforts a subsidy. 

If the CSB generated 4.1 million in revenue and paid the CSA 4 million, would it still be a subsidy? Again, the whole anti CSB talk is hogwash unless you use actual financial figures to back up your claim. given that the CSA made less than 1 million in sponsorship and paid 1 mil in broadcasting fees pre CSB, what would you say is a fair deal for CSA-CSB today?

[red card]

On 10/30/2023 at 9:43 AM, Bigandy said:

Im not sure what you are talkign about with a fee? The financial statemtents state that CSA pays CPL 350k a year. Am i missing the 1 million CSB fee, because I cant find it? (I 100% support the CSA paying 350k a year so that we have the CPL and can host a WC. Theres probably no better value option for player development. paying 350k on youth teams likely wont get the returns that having the CPL will.  

 

You can say 350k/yr is Canada Soccer money. Another tranche of up to 650k/yr is also provided to the CPL. Canada Soccer is passing through monies from FIFA as part of FIFA's Forward Development Programme as per financial notes.

FIFA's program provides each FA up to US$1.25m/yr with 500k for ongoing ops and 400k for 8 specific elements with at least 2 related to women's football. Certain FAs can also get 250k to cover travel/accomodation.

FIFA will also provide up to US$750k/yr for specific projects such as organising a men's league. 

https://www.fifa.com/football-development/fifa-forward/history

Edited November 1, 2023 by red card

[red card]

Scott Mitchell was on McCown's podcast the day before he was on Footy Prime. His interview starts just after 35 mins.

First part was with Sharman discussing Sinclair. But in the last portion of his interview, Sharman said Canada's women players are pretty happy with what’s on the table. Problem is with the men. Not all men onside/understand pay equity. Sharam hopes men will understand that you don’t get rich playing for your country. FAs need money for the good of the sport. 

Mitchell said similar things to his Footy Prime appearance. But added stuff was he/CSB offered dozens of times to help Canada Soccer. It has been toxic between Canada Soccer/players in the past 18 months but there is a slow movement to getting it better. Players getting some very interesting advice from American lawyers. At some point, parties have decide if it is time to move it forward or tear it apart. 

Maybe unintentional, but CSB was thrown in as a negotiating tactic when Canada Soccer was at a stalemate. But it was a major mistake as CSB deal wasn’t understood by everybody.

3 Presidents, 3 General Secretaries over 2 years makes it hard to figure out what needs to be amended in CSB deal. But have made major advances since Crooks has come in.

Mitchell has been on both sides. Was a player agent and was part of CFL collective bargaining committee for 10 years. He/CSB have offered advice and resources to Canada Soccer but difficulty is CSB isn’t at the negotiating table. Don’t want to create more confusion. Deal should have been made long before World Cup. Labour dispute is hurting the CSB business. 

Canada Soccer needs to get their pieces in place. Players need to get better advice to understand it is about building a project together rather than burning the house down.

He also said League 1s are the equivalent of junior hockey leagues. CSB goal is to develop Canada as a sovereign soccer country (apparently a favourite saying of Montagliani).

https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/james-sharman-on-christine-sinclairs-retirement-the/id1518820915?i=1000632743452

Edited November 1, 2023 by red card

[Bigandy]

14 hours ago, red card said:

You can say 350k/yr is Canada Soccer money. Another tranche of up to 650k/yr is also provided to the CPL. Canada Soccer is passing through monies from FIFA as part of FIFA's Forward Development Programme as per financial notes.

FIFA's program provides each FA up to US$1.25m/yr with 500k for ongoing ops and 400k for 8 specific elements with at least 2 related to women's football. Certain FAs can also get 250k to cover travel/accomodation.

FIFA will also provide up to US$750k/yr for specific projects such as organising a men's league. 

https://www.fifa.com/football-development/fifa-forward/history

I appreciate your knowledge on this. Just so i understand, CSA pays out of pocket 350k a year. Fifa gives CSA up to 650k a year to pass onto CPL. Or is all of the money from fifa and/or CSA?

In either case, any money coming from Fifa discredits that CSA is subsidizing CPL via the CSB deal, as its literally fifa providing the money. Obviously the CSA is likely to subsidize a pro league like to a certain extent independent of the CSB deal.  Same way the csa subsidizes women wages.

[red card]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I appreciate your knowledge on this. Just so i understand, CSA pays out of pocket 350k a year. Fifa gives CSA up to 650k a year to pass onto CPL. Or is all of the money from fifa and/or CSA?

In either case, any money coming from Fifa discredits that CSA is subsidizing CPL via the CSB deal, as its literally fifa providing the money. Obviously the CSA is likely to subsidize a pro league like to a certain extent independent of the CSB deal.  Same way the csa subsidizes women wages.

Canada Soccer doesn't provide details on source of 350k funding. So, it comes from a revenue lever ex FIFA/Concacaf. 

Canada Soccer may get more than 650k from FIFA Forward but not disclosed. FIFA also doesn't provide details of how they distribute these funds. 

Last year, Canada Soccer got $18.4m from FIFA/Concacaf. They also got $1.4m from FIFA for World Cup 2026 which will be increasing in the next 3 years. In 2014, Canada Soccer got $22 million for WWC 2015 ($7.2m in 2013).

FAs providing monies to their domestic leagues is common to very likey (women's leagues) especially since FIFA is willing to provide funding. Just need to apply.

[red card]

Coincidentally, FIFA just out a post/article about FIFA Forward funding CPL.

They say funding started in 2017 and US$2m will be invested in the CPL from 2023-26. FIFA’s funding will go towards the travel, accommodation, and match fees of the league’s referees, as well as supporting the travel and accommodation budgets of the teams.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by red card

[king1010]

 

 

Edited January 25 by king1010

[king1010]

 

[maplebanana]

I was trying to post these tweets but couldn't remember how to embed tweets. 

Combined with the post about a 2009 born player called up to Poland, it's a double whammy of 'I am old'.

[Vasi]

Lol. Never a dull moment. 

Hope Sportsnet and TSN pounce. Wont give the program more money....but more people will watch the games and more exposure. 

[toontownman]

If there is true interest from the Canadian networks this is positive news. I'm not convinced. Fingers crossed for CBC. I imagine this means no CPL on fubo too,unless they are fronting up to produce the games. I dont think they do that though.

Maybe CSB fancy they can do it themselves now they have had people working with one soccer 5 years.

I don't want to have to go pay for sportsnet or tsn again. They simply don't deserve it!

[Vasi]

1 minute ago, toontownman said:

If there is true interest from the Canadian networks this is positive news. I'm not convinced. Fingers crossed for CBC. I imagine this means no CPL on fubo too,unless they are fronting up to produce the games. I dont think they do that though.

Maybe CSB fancy they can do it themselves now they have had people working with one soccer 5 years.

I don't want to have to go pay for sportsnet or tsn again. They simply don't deserve it!

They might not deserve it, but have the largest reach and have many people who do subscribe. 

Feelings aside and unfortunately, having the CPL and the Nat teams on TSN or Sportsnet is the best thing for exposure for them. 

No-one else gets ad many eyeballs they get. 

[jhoops__]

TSN has the Copa rights and WC so it makes sense to get a full deal for men’s and women’s games you’d think…

[El Diego]

Much easier to sell national team matches than CPL, I would think