Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, Shway said:

Wait what…I might need you to reword this for me.

Near 50% of the CSA revenue comes from Player, Coach, and Referee registration fees.

Full stop. That’s the issue. They rely way to much on the community. (Side note, what was interesting is that the number increased in the hot year of the pandemic when a lot of sports were cancelled).

Then you look deeper into the cost to play the game here (specifically in Ontario) and the prices are crazzzzzzzzy. 

Then you look at the amount of youth camps we have, and question where the hell is the money going too…..

CSB deal was needed, but it is now horrible.

The senior national teams shouldn’t be funded by the parents. 

Sure. I will do my best to explain it better. 
 

I agree that 50% comes from youth fees.  We have 750,000 youth playing soccer and csa collects 10 million in fees from these youth players. That means that each youth player pays a 10-15$ fee to csa. The remainder of their registration fee stays at whichever local team they play on.  
 

I agree fees to play are crazy but if we remove the csa fee then the price to play goes down by 10-15$ a year.  This hardly makes it more affordable and youth development doesn’t get any better if you just reduce the fee by 10-15$.  
 

I also agree that too high of a percentage of csa budget comes from youth soccer.  However, prior to this round of qualifying, where else would the money come from.  No one was willing to invest in Canada soccer. 
 

now we have the opportunity to find revenues elsewhere but it goes to csb which we all think is the worst deal ever.  
 

if we stop charging youth players 10-15$ a year, we won’t be able to fund our men’s or women’s program.  Therefore, I support the fee. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 hours ago, red card said:

CIBC do state in their press release about supporting a pro women's league...

"CIBC is excited to contribute to Canadian soccer's ongoing journey ...and support for the development of the women's professional game."

The actual wording you quoted says nothing about a league and is probably phrased that way for a reason.

[red card]

3 hours ago, Shway said:

I honestly believe there needs to be a better way to implement a women’s professional league rather than using investors to eventually bleed money.

We honestly don’t know how the CPL would be doing without the CSB deal and the success of the CMNT. 

So here me out….

The CPL is near its 5th anniversary. 
MLS clubs are going on 15+ years of existing in the American setup.

Shouldn't we look at launching expansion teams in the NWSL, seeing how they do before splurging on a women’s coast to coast league?

The needs of the men’s game Vs the women’s has been completely different. Canadian women haven’t been overlooked like the men have. 

Current & former Canadian players like Sinclair, Kyle & Matheson have all said they want a domestic league rather than 1 or 2 NWSL teams in Canada.

Reasons why is that NWSL expansion fee means splurging US$25 million. Better to splurge that money in Canada. A domestic women's league has a chance to be a top 10 league in a very short time frame.

Plus, a league provides way more jobs from assistant coaches to players to management. There are over 150 Canadians playing in the NCAA but only 1 or 2 get drafted/signed by the NWSL every year. There are over 100 Canadians play in Europe. 

[Bigandy]

54 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The actual wording you quoted says nothing about a league and is probably phrased that way for a reason.

For sure it is phrased that way on purpose. Cibc is not going to create a women’s league…. It would be foolish to think they would or that they have the resources to execute it properly or that they would be willing to invest in a league that is most likely not viable financially. The sponsorship is likely no where near the dollars that are needed to fund a women’s league.  

[red card]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Sure. I will do my best to explain it better. 
 

I agree that 50% comes from youth fees.  We have 750,000 youth playing soccer and csa collects 10 million in fees from these youth players. That means that each youth player pays a 10-15$ fee to csa. The remainder of their registration fee stays at whichever local team they play on.  
 

I agree fees to play are crazy but if we remove the csa fee then the price to play goes down by 10-15$ a year.  This hardly makes it more affordable and youth development doesn’t get any better if you just reduce the fee by 10-15$.  
 

I also agree that too high of a percentage of csa budget comes from youth soccer.  However, prior to this round of qualifying, where else would the money come from.  No one was willing to invest in Canada soccer. 
 

now we have the opportunity to find revenues elsewhere but it goes to csb which we all think is the worst deal ever.  
 

if we stop charging youth players 10-15$ a year, we won’t be able to fund our men’s or women’s program.  Therefore, I support the fee. 

CSB only gets sponsorship & media rights money. There are plenty of other levers Canada Soccer can pull but have historically barely done it or did it poorly.

Besides player's registration fees & CSB monies, CSA gets match revenues, royalties from merchandise sold, licensing revenue, FIFA/Concacaf grants, Own the Podium money for the women & World Cup prize money. Match revenues should exceed sponsorship monies if CSA execution improves markedly i.e. in run up to 2026, hold about 10 domestic friendlies/yr against top 20 opponents with healthy ticket pricing + more women's friendlies for 2023 World Cup & 2024 Olympics.

The biggest revenue stream of all will come in 2026 from hosting the World Cup. In 2015, CSA generated $80 million in gross revenue from hosting the 2015 Women's World Cup.

Edited November 11, 2022 by red card

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 minutes ago, red card said:

...Match revenues should exceed sponsorship monies if CSA execution improves markedly i.e. in run up to 2026, hold about 10 domestic friendlies/yr against top 20 opponents with healthy ticket pricing...

How is that going to happen with the limited number of FIFA window dates now largely taken up with Nations League games?

[red card]

Just now, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

How is that going to happen with the limited number of FIFA window dates now largely taken up with Nations League games?

 

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

How is that going to happen with the limited number of FIFA window dates now largely taken up with Nations League games?

With no WCQ, there will be windows to fill. Also women need to have domestic friendlies vs top 10 opponents to prep for World Cup/Olympics in the next 2 years.

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, red card said:

CSB only gets sponsorship & media rights money. There are plenty of other levers Canada Soccer can pull but have historically barely done it or did it poorly.

Besides player's registration fees & CSB monies, CSA gets match revenues, royalties from merchandise sold, licensing revenue, FIFA/Concacaf grants, Own the Podium money for the women & World Cup prize money. Match revenues should exceed sponsorship monies if CSA execution improves markedly i.e. in run up to 2026, hold about 10 domestic friendlies/yr against top 20 opponents with healthy ticket pricing. 

The biggest revenue stream of all will come in 2026 from hosting the World Cup. In 2015, CSA generated $80 million in gross revenue from hosting the 2015 Women's World Cup.

Good point that there’s different revenue streams. 
 

Canada taps into  all of those streams and generates around 10 mil total for an average year. 
 

looking at things prior to our recent qualifying campaign - because everything has changed since then. 
 

merch- how do you increase demand for merch if no one cares about cmnt. 
 

playing top10-20 teams. - how do you get these games if none of them want to play a bad canada team. How do u have a healthy ticket price if no one wants to go to the games?
 

licensing -  this is why we did the csb deal… because no one wanted to license our games

 

wc revenue- how do u get them if you don’t qualify.  
 

it’s not like csa is not aware of these streams, they just couldn’t tap into them because the demand was so low. 

that’s why we need youth player fees. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 minutes ago, red card said:

With no WCQ, there will be windows to fill...

Most of your desired top 20 FIFA ranking opponents are going to have other commitments during those windows. The addition of UEFA's Nations League to UEFA and WC qualifiers now severely limits the number of friendlies played by top European national teams, especially if a couple of transatlantic flights are involved. COMNEBOL has an 18 game round robin format for WC qualification that also doesn't leave much room for a jaunt to Toronto or Vancouver to play the CMNT.

[Unnamed Trialist]

We have to give credit to League One for establishing women's leagues along with men's (is it so also in Quebec?).

Perhaps the most reasonable next step is to take those 3 leagues and bolster them, create a serious model where they shift to a longer season and be authentically semipro. I know this won't satisfy those who want a pro women's league, but I can't see how we can find a women's CPL with 6 teams, say. We'd need a yearly 10 million dollar investment. Specific sponsors, CSB backing, the CSA dedicating revenue such as from gates of NT matches, deep pocket investors and play at a loss. With players making about half what the guys make in CPL.

So I'd say it'd be better to try to push up the level of L1 to provide, 1- an equivalent to NCAA without having to go to university, which isn't for everyone, and 2-a competitive level for players readying to go to a European league or even Mexico, Colombia, 3- minor remuneration for players, and 4- a more entertaining better quality product for fans.

It seems a manageable first step option.

The other part of this is to really reinforce a tournament of the best L1 teams across the nation. Like literally a 8 team tournament, a cup.

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

We have to give credit to League One for establishing women's leagues along with men's (is it so also in Quebec?).

 

Quebec indeed does have a league.

This year the 3 leagues got together and had a 4 team Championship. Blainville are the champions.

 

[Mattd97]

Remember when they claimed the strike against Panama cost them 5 million in gate revenue?

[Shway]

19 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Most of your desired top 20 FIFA ranking opponents are going to have other commitments during those windows.

Not Conembol…. So we’ll have a great opportunity to schedule A friendlies against them. The key is being proactive and not trying to schedule it last minute.

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, Shway said:

Not Conembol…. So we’ll have a great opportunity to schedule A friendlies against them. The key is being proactive and not trying to schedule it last minute.

I’m not sure, but wouldn’t those nations also be in World Cup qualifying games?  Agree we need to schedule friendlies early. 

[Bigandy]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

We have to give credit to League One for establishing women's leagues along with men's (is it so also in Quebec?).

Perhaps the most reasonable next step is to take those 3 leagues and bolster them, create a serious model where they shift to a longer season and be authentically semipro. I know this won't satisfy those who want a pro women's league, but I can't see how we can find a women's CPL with 6 teams, say. We'd need a yearly 10 million dollar investment. Specific sponsors, CSB backing, the CSA dedicating revenue such as from gates of NT matches, deep pocket investors and play at a loss. With players making about half what the guys make in CPL.

So I'd say it'd be better to try to push up the level of L1 to provide, 1- an equivalent to NCAA without having to go to university, which isn't for everyone, and 2-a competitive level for players readying to go to a European league or even Mexico, Colombia, 3- minor remuneration for players, and 4- a more entertaining better quality product for fans.

It seems a manageable first step option.

The other part of this is to really reinforce a tournament of the best L1 teams across the nation. Like literally a 8 team tournament, a cup.

This! 
 

as much as I’d love a women’s league, no investor will want to operate at a loss, csa can’t afford anything, and the cpl is just trying to stay alive and can’t try to subsidize a second league.  I’m trying to think of how you improve the quality though.  Maybe create loan agreements with pro usa clubs, give salaries, link up with uni teams so you can take graduated players. 
 

I think it’s def a great option and maybe you could take away the subsidizing of players in nwsl and funnel it into L1.  Hopefully there’s other ways to fund it because I think the csa knows they’d be crucified if they stopped subsidizing women’s player wages(maybe rightly so). 

[Shway]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

I’m not sure, but wouldn’t those nations also be in World Cup qualifying games?  Agree we need to schedule friendlies early. 

There's only 10 teams, they usually have open dates and typically are the federation that is left out in the cold looking to play friendlies other than the 9 teams they usually face. 

It's been an issue for them. There's even been talks of them joining UEFA nations league. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I’m not sure, but wouldn’t those nations also be in World Cup qualifying games?  ...

I even pointed out that they play a marathon 18 game round robin for WC qualifying in the post he replied to but he probably didn't even bother reading to the end before hitting Quote. Bear in mind this is what I originally responded to:

On 11/11/2022 at 8:28 PM, red card said:

...hold about 10 domestic friendlies/yr against top 20 opponents with healthy ticket pricing...

That seems easier said than done to me and more a way to try to deflect from how questionable the deal signed with CSB in 2018 is turning out to be from a CSA perspective than something genuinely practical.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[red card]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I even pointed out that they play a marathon 18 game round robin for WC qualifying in the post he replied to but he probably didn't even bother reading to the end before hitting Quote. Bear in mind this is what I originally responded to:

That seems easier said than done to me and more a way to try to deflect from how questionable the deal signed with CSB in 2018 is turning out to be from a CSA perspective than something genuinely practical.

It isn't easy which is why CSA has been weak at it. But the Americans have been able to get at least tier 2 Conmebol countries for friendlies. They have Serbia & Colombia lined up for January. Since 2018, the US have had domestic friendlies with Paraguay, Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, Chile, Venezuela & Uruguay (2).

With hosting 26, there will be countries looking to play friendlies in North America - more easier to package matches with US/Mexico also involved. There should also be a window of about 9 months before the World Cup that is free of formal competitions (assuming no event shocks condensing schedules).

It will help if Canada can advance past the group stage and have a moment or two as a team or individually (to sell kits beyond Davies). For the women, it would help if they make at least the semis next year and a new star is created to take over Sinclair's mantle. 

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by red card

[Ansem]

Another partnership, this time to view the games at Samsung store in Toronto and Montreal.

 

 

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

Another partnership, this time to view the games at Samsung store in Toronto and Montreal.

 

 

I want to meet the person who waited 36 years so they could watch Canada play from a Samsung store. 

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I want to meet the person who waited 36 years so they could watch Canada play from a Samsung store. 

Facts!!!

[Cblake]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I want to meet the person who waited 36 years so they could watch Canada play from a Samsung store. 

I am sure having the GOAT in attendance at this event in Toronto will draw people in, but the more I think about it the more I am surprised she is not in Qatar for the match. At the end of the day, deals like this are only good for exposure and growth of the game. 

[Dominic94]

The more deals that are signed the more of a hose this deal becomes.. it’s hard seeing all this money fund that Can PL losses that the owners were supposed to fund..

[Bison44]

10 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

The more deals that are signed the more of a hose this deal becomes.. it’s hard seeing all this money fund that Can PL losses that the owners were supposed to fund..

Do you think a few Samsung stores setting up big screens for watching parties is bringing in a bunch of money??  Or did I miss something about a deal like CIBC etc??  

[narduch]

28 minutes ago, Dominic94 said:

The more deals that are signed the more of a hose this deal becomes.. it’s hard seeing all this money fund that Can PL losses that the owners were supposed to fund..

The new Gatorade ad pretty much puts to bed that this is even an issue anymore. 

They will hammer out a deal eventually. 

Everybody still trying to shit on CSB (and the CPL) just look overly pessimistic at this point