Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[SpursFlu]

I think what we have have once again is the 1% trying to suck up and hog all the wealth 

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

20 years now?  What other details of the arrangement can you share?

It was in the Toronto Star

7 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

The point was that any business leader with a vision could see that handing over control of the organization (money is control) at that point in time for decades to a third party without input from the stakeholders or even a modicum of transparency was either corrupt or negligent.  

What was the CSA doing with all that power when they had control of everything? Wasn't great either

 

8 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

Spare me the CPL stuff.  Do you think a significant percentages of the 100k that watched the CNMT live in Edmonton. 20k in Hamilton and 30k at BMO all in freezing conditions, in addition to the millions that watched it on tv or online care about the CPL or OneSoccer?

Not being on cable TV and mention of major sport channel is a disadvantage for sure. I'm intrigued that you seem to prefer status quo over what has been happening and planned in Canadian soccer.

I mean there are no perfect deals and there's plenty to criticize here but if your main argument is that status quo should have stayed so we go back to an impotent CSA banking it all on 3 MLS clubs and potentially a NWSL club - disagree with that rationale as well.

[kohanz]

Here's what it comes down to, for me: were the players and/or their representation either involved/aware of the CSB/CSA deal that basically pegs & caps the CSA's revenue at $3M/year? Did they know about this when the deal was made or in the years since?

If they were aware of this contract and the benefits & limitations that it imposed and didn't raise a stink until now, then that's on them (the players), in my opinion. You can't knowingly reap the benefits of such a contract and then complain later about the drawbacks.

However, if the CSA was not transparent and forthcoming about this and the players have only recently learned that the big FIFA payout that they earned was never going to result in a larger financial reward for them, then that is on the CSA and they deserve all the criticism they are getting. 

My hunch is its the latter (especially given how difficult it might be to recruit players if you were forthcoming about those kind of handcuffs), but hopefully we find out one way or another.

Edited June 6, 2022 by kohanz

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, kohanz said:

Here's what it comes down to, for me: were the players and/or their representation either involved/aware of the CSB/CSA deal that basically pegs & caps the CSA's revenue at $3M/year? Did they know about this when the deal was made or in the years since?

If they were aware of this contract and the benefits & limitations that it imposed and didn't raise a stink until now, then that's on them (the players), in my opinion.

However, if the CSA was not transparent and forthcoming about this and the players have only recently learned that the big FIFA payout that they _earned_ was never going to result in a larger financial reward for them, then that is on the CSA and they deserve all the criticism they are getting. 

My hunch is its the latter (especially given how difficult it might be to recruit player if you were forthcoming about those kind of handcuffs), but hopefully we find out one way or another.

A union would be great for both parties. The players not knowing and bringing it up now is partially on them but as an employer, you HAVE to let your employees know how things are working in the business.

If you can`t do that as an employer, you have no business not supporting a union as one of its mandate is to keep its member in the loop of stuff like this.

[kohanz]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

A union would be great for both parties. The players not knowing and bringing it up now is partially on them but as an employer, you HAVE to let your employees know how things are working in the business.

If you can`t do that as an employer, you have no business not supporting a union as one of its mandate is to keep its member in the loop of stuff like this.

That's my other thought: do the players have good representation that offers continuity and understanding of the landscape (CSA, FIFA, things like CSB, etc.)? Given the disorganization we've witnessed, is it possible that some of the players were made aware of this deal when it was made, but others that are unaware have been brought into the fold since? I agree that the onus is at least partially on the CSA to keep all recruits aware of the stakes.

[maccaliam]

1 hour ago, SpursFlu said:

The CPL will put more money in the pockets of Canadians footballers than the CMNT ever will 

This is actually something I have been thinking about a lot since last night. Isn’t this CSB/CPL owners group who hold all rights for sponsorship earning, etc for our National teams the same group who refuse to discuss CPL players union where the players want open dialogue on minimum salaries and revenue sharing? 

Sounds like your other post about the 1% wanting to keep all of the money for themselves is correct. CSB were open about how much money they have spent, but no where have they mentioned how much money they have earned or are in line to earn. It’s almost like they want to remain quiet on the money they are taking out of our game for their own purposes. 

[Meepmeep]

22 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm intrigued that you seem to prefer status quo over what has been happening and planned in Canadian soccer.

A bit of a straw man argument there if we’re being honest. 
No one I know of has said status quo was a preferred option. 
Bringing up the increase in popularity during the qualifying cycle was to show that there is/was a path to success without signing away everything to a small group of men.  
The CPL and MedioPro had little to nothing to do with what happened over the past 6-9 months with the Mens team.  Nothing to do with the Women winning Gold. Yet for some reason we are to believe that the CSA had no choice but to sign everything but a small allowance away.  I don’t believe that at all.  

[Ruud]

Reminded of this classic 99 year deal 

The 407 is worth $30B today – Ontario sold it for $3.1B in 1999. SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. will sell 10.01 per cent of its stake in 407 International Inc., the private consortium that controls the profitable tolled highway in north Toronto, for an expected $3.25 billion, the company announced Friday
 

https://www.thespec.com/news/canada/2019/09/03/birth-of-a-fiasco-how-the-ontario-tories-completely-botched-the-sale-of-highway-407.html

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

I'm not defending Bontis or Cochrane or the CSB deal but... remember when Doneil was saying that guys don't like going back to their clubs because they aren't as well run as the National Team? This was truly outstanding for those of us who remember jersey sharing and everyone flying coach.

How did this change happen? Surely Herdman had a lot to do with it but JH seems very much a part of the CSA. It seems to me that one theory is that Scott Mitchell and CSB helped to professionalize the landscape and provide a basic level of funding to run the programs (oh yeah and the CPL). Not a perfect level (youth camps had to suffer) but a basic professional level.

I'm not sure this has a whole lot to do with the players concerns, which I hope amount to tweaks and disclosures in the end. But surely they have to realize that Canada Soccer has done their part in Qualification, several times choosing what was best over what was most profitable.

I believe all money in football should ultimately go to the players and owners should accept this from the get go. But cancelling this Iran friendly, hiding behind politics to do so, was a horrible mistake and a horrible waste of the Brotherhood's collective voice.

 

[prairiecanuck]

The CSB has a partnership interest in Mediapro, which owns onesoccer.  I'm not sure what their interest is, but I can't see it being less than 50%.  There's a reason not one soccer employee has made a single tweet since the game was cancelled. 

This seems pretty easy.  What are the details of the agreement signed in 2018.  What were the alternatives at the time.  Let's have some transparency.  The CSA still collects all the ticket revenue from matches for the national team, so the CSA lost out on a lot of potential revenue from last nights game and is saddled with all the expenses.  I don't see how not playing that game benefited the players.  They cut their noses off to spite their face.  They obviously see it as short term pain for long term gain.  This circus show is just in the first act.  Grab your popcorn.  It's going to be an interesting fun few days.

Edited June 6, 2022 by prairiecanuck

[kohanz]

4 minutes ago, prairiecanuck said:

The CSB has a partnership interest in Mediapro, which owns onesoccer.  I'm not sure what their interest is, but I can't see it being less than 50%.  There's a reason not one soccer employee has made a single tweet since the game was cancelled. 

This also explains Wheeler constantly towing the company line.

[Ruud]

They are all walking on eggshells to be fair. 
we all trust KJ and his silence is deafening. 
 

 

[prairiecanuck]

11 minutes ago, Ruud said:

They are all walking on eggshells to be fair. 
we all trust KJ and his silence is deafening. 
 

 

Everyone employed at onesoccer is employed because of this deal.   This is a mess.

[SpursFlu]

Something stinks in Soccer City. This could be right up there with Enron. I bet KJ is working on a blockbuster expose that's gonna blow the lid of this entire scam these bozos have been running for years 

"KJ meet me at the diner off the hwy and come alone. I've got some CSB documents that are gonna shock the world"

KJ "how do I know I can trust you?"

"Because I'm a women and a minority and I'm part of the LGBTQ+ community"

KJ "OK OK ill meet you there in 1 hour"

"And KJ, one more thing"

KJ "Yay what is it?"

"Do not talk to Gareth Wheeler. He's one of them"

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by SpursFlu

[prairiecanuck]

This deal has layers of complexity to it.  Is a domestic league ultimately good for the CSA in the long run?  The deal was struck in 2018. It was spearheaded by Victor Montagliani.   Domestic men's soccer leagues have a history of failure and bankruptcy.   Were there kickbacks involved?  What other offers were on the table in 2018.  The landscape and risks associated with any deal in 2018 are vastly different than the current environment.   There's broadcast rights and then there's changing the landscape of Canadian soccer.  Was the deal seemingly attractive in 2018 and now looks like terrible?  A lot could be learned with a little transparency.  I have no clue about the deal or alternatives or what was the driving force behind this deal.  Victor is probably the guy the media should be reaching out for comment from.   The problem is he's going to be the one handing out sanctions and penalties if we don't play Thursday for a deal he structured 4 years ago.   What a world we live in. 

 

[SpursFlu]

Guys guys... I'm in the streets of Vancouver and people are taking to the streets demanding change "sack the CSA sack the CSA!" "CSB is Corruption CSB is Corruption!"

This is amazing. What a time to be alive 

"Gareth Wheeler is a stooge, Gareth Wheeler is a stooge!"

This is like occupy wall street. Remember that? Yah no one does but trust me "Viva la Revolucion!"

[prairiecanuck]

2 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Guys guys... I'm in the streets of Vancouver and people are taking to the streets demanding change "sack the CSA sack the CSA!" "CSB is Corruption CSB is Corruption!"

This is amazing. What a time to be alive 

"Gareth Wheeler is a stooge, Gareth Wheeler is a stooge!"

This is like occupy wall street. Remember that? Yah no one does but trust me "Viva la Revolucion!"

Everything the CSB and onesoccer has done has clearly taken soccer in Canada back into the dark ages.  

[SpursFlu]

1 minute ago, prairiecanuck said:

Everything the CSB and onesoccer has done has clearly taken soccer in Canada back into the dark ages.  

Buddy they're robbing us blind

And that one time they're stream was pixely for a few minutes.. I thought I was gonna die. Bastards

[El Diego]

I think CSB/MediaPro's main bet was on the CPL, which has failed, but their side bet on the national team(s) has hit big time and now there are unforeseen consequences because of that. I also think the CSA deal was shortsighted -- it's easy to say this now, however. 

Ultimately, I think the distrust sowed between the men's team and the CSA over the past three decades is the root cause of all this. I don't think the players trust the CSA on any real level, so even if the facts and details are legit the players are unable to accept any explanation from the CSA.

[Ivan]

So let me try and answer my own question, probably grotesquely simplified, but here goes:

• Prize money for qualifying for the WC is $10 million.
• CSB deal with the CSA is for $3 million per year, with the rest of the revenues going to CSB.
• Players asking for 30 % of the bonus money.
• Bontis alluded to the fact, in his press conference, that the players are asking for 100 % of the bonus money which causes me great confusion, because he also throws out the 30 % number.
• 30 % of $10 million is 3 million, so the players are asking for all of the money CSA is getting from CSB, in effect, the 100 % Bontis alluded to.
• Conclusion - If the players want more of the bonus money, CSB has to come to the table which, of course, they have no obligation to do so.   

[Aird25]

9 minutes ago, El Diego said:

I think CSB/MediaPro's main bet was on the CPL, which has failed, but their side bet on the national team(s) has hit big time and now there are unforeseen consequences because of that

Wasn't the length of the deal specifically intended to incorporate the 2026 World Cup, and wasn't CPL largely developed to strengthen Canada's position and be considered as part of that bid? 

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Meepmeep said:

A bit of a straw man argument there if we’re being honest. 
No one I know of has said status quo was a preferred option. 
Bringing up the increase in popularity during the qualifying cycle was to show that there is/was a path to success without signing away everything to a small group of men.  
The CPL and MedioPro had little to nothing to do with what happened over the past 6-9 months with the Mens team.  Nothing to do with the Women winning Gold. Yet for some reason we are to believe that the CSA had no choice but to sign everything but a small allowance away.  I don’t believe that at all.  

Yet you can't answer what you would have done differently with the data you had around 2017/2018 and if that was the only offer that was put on your table.

You're implying that getting a better deal at that time would have been easier while keeping control of everything. I don't buy it.

There's criticizing for the sake of it, but what's the alternative other than status quo? Oh and yeah, CPL-MediaPro had nothing to do with this "golden era". Hate to break it to you but this "golden era" is an outlier and tons of luck and the "status quo" also had little to do with it. If you don't want this to be a "one time" success story, you need to come up with solid programs/plans to ensure future sustainable success - the status quo would have NEVER accomplished that

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Wasn't the length of the deal specifically intended to incorporate the 2026 World Cup, and wasn't CPL largely developed to strengthen Canada's position and be considered as part of that bid? 

Also, the CPL was designed to increase the pool to ensure the sustainable success of the national team long term - betting on CPL is also betting on the national team - there's a reason everything was bundle together. Their future will become more and more intertwined

--> The better the league does, the better the National teams will do

-->The better the national teams perform, the more interest it will bring to soccer which will help CPL

[El Diego]

3 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Wasn't the length of the deal specifically intended to incorporate the 2026 World Cup, and wasn't CPL largely developed to strengthen Canada's position and be considered as part of that bid? 

Indeed. I guess it's better for me to say that the national team bet hit early. I think the CPL bit is true, but in a vacuum I think the CPL is a miss (and I say this as someone who subscribes to OS, follows the league, wants a team in SK, and wants it to succeed a lot). If the main purpose of the CPL is to allow us to get the WC then what are we doing here (note that I don't think that's the case, but I think you're right those two things were inextricably linked).

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Ivan said:

So let me try and answer my own question, probably grotesquely simplified, but here goes:

• Prize money for qualifying for the WC is $10 million.
• CSB deal with the CSA is for $3 million per year, with the rest of the revenues going to CSB.
• Players asking for 30 % of the bonus money.
• Bontis alluded to the fact, in his press conference, that the players are asking for 100 % of the bonus money which causes me great confusion, because he also throws out the 30 % number.
• 30 % of $10 million is 3 million, so the players are asking for all of the money CSA is getting from CSB, in effect, the 100 % Bontis alluded to.
• Conclusion - If the players want more of the bonus money, CSB has to come to the table which, of course, they have no obligation to do so.   

Forgive me if this is elementary, as I haven't been getting into the nitty gritty on this, but:

1 - CSB is a revenue source for the CSA, as they are paying them 3M a year, but in exchange any CSA revenue on top of that flows back to the CSB? Is that right?

2 - So that being the case, 3M players are asking for is essentially all the revenue from CSB, and since any revenue on top of that goes to CSB, the CSA is left with 0 revenue. 

Do I understand this mess correctly?