Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[Cheeta]

No CPL no co-hosting the world Cup finals in '26.  It would be Mexico-USA 2026.

No CSB no CPL.  

No CSB no OneSoccer.  

That's how I connect the dots.  

Canada playing at home in the greatest sporting event on planet earth.  The creation of a league which will be the foundation of the footballing pyramid in the country for years to come. And a media body which has done a hell of a job strengthening the footie ecosystem in this country.

 

 

 

[TOcanadafan]

1 hour ago, Ivan said:

You've made this point a few times and I don't know how you are coming to the conclusion that the CSB deal hampers the NT camp funding.  I would have thought that when the CSA made the deal with CSB, they would have budgeted what they need to run the organisation properly with the right amount of age level camps .  They would have thought the $3M per year in advertising revenue would be enough (along with other revenue streams) to run required camps.  The fact that the players are asking for more than the WCQ bonus is what is hampering the revenue, not the CSB deal. 

Although, while typing this, I see the dichotomy between the fixed commercial revenue and the players' ask.

I am making the assumption that this value was not at 0 prior to the CSB deal.  I can’t make out what these values were by looking at past financial statements… maybe someone with this expertise could.  If after this deal, things are relatively the same as before, then how can we suddenly have an improved youth program?

[narduch]

Craig Forrest mentioned on Footy Prime that prior to CSB the CSA used to have a similar relationship with IMG

[mpg_29]

The idea that a professional domestic league holds the NT's back or it has to be one or the other is just laughable when you look at the rest of the world.

You can debate the level but at the end of the day having 100+ Canadians playing in a professional league outweighs any one youth camp. And I'm not saying those are not important.

It grows and maintains the depth of the player pool.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

The idea that a professional domestic league holds the NT's back or it has to be one or the other is just laughable when you look at the rest of the world.

You can debate the level but at the end of the day having 100+ Canadians playing in a professional league outweighs any one youth camp. And I'm not saying those are not important.

It grows and maintains the depth of the player pool.

Thanks.

Then there are some here arguing that the CPL does not supply the National Team, not even developing players for it.

Well it's only been a few years in Covid, so give it time. Anyways, according to many here there is at least one player coming out of CPL who should get a NT callup (Waterman), and CPL is currently in the middle of only its second proper season.

But also: no one in England argues that because League One and League Two do not supply a lot of players to the National Team, even indirectly, the lower leagues are an impediment to the success of The Three Lions. Unthinkable. 

Putting the two points together: if you scour the national teams of the great nations of the world, you will find a certain percentage who did spend time in lower tiers. As youth, true; and some even as adults. Vardy played for Fleetwood Town and Halifax when he was already into his 20s. 

[Aird25]

3 former CPL players starting in Toronto vs Montreal tonight. One played for Vancouver earlier in the week. If our National team wasn’t as strong as it’s ever been we would have undoubtedly seen the league contributing to the team sooner 

[Cheeta]

 

 

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

3 former CPL players starting in Toronto vs Montreal tonight. One played for Vancouver earlier in the week. If our National team wasn’t as strong as it’s ever been we would have undoubtedly seen the league contributing to the team sooner 

Wrote it before, write it a-gin, the Canadian MLS sides have to recognize what a God send the CPL is for them.  And if you subscribe to the idea that Canadian football has benefited from participating in MLS, well, more CPL the better, eh?

 

[ted]

13 hours ago, phil03 said:

... we need to avoid getting starry eyed at dreams of us become like European countries when it come to our Soccer culture, and be clear eyed as to what we are getting out of the CPL being a thing and its role in Canada's broader Soccer ecosystem.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Literally no one is, "getting starry eyed at dreams of us become like European countries". NO ONE is is saying that the CanPL is going to be at the same level as the EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga etc any time in the near (or possibly even far) future.

The importance of the CanPL is that is fills a hole in our development system that has held us back for decades. Young players, 16-18 years old, who might have had a shot and could have played in World Cups between 1986 and 2022 were forced to play in Europe before MLS came along and even after MLS the number of spots was limited and only slightly better geographically.

So let's keep the discussion based on reality and what people are actually saying please.

[An Observer]

4 hours ago, ted said:

This is why we can't have nice things.

Literally no one is, "getting starry eyed at dreams of us become like European countries". NO ONE is is saying that the CanPL is going to be at the same level as the EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga etc any time in the near (or possibly even far) future.

The importance of the CanPL is that is fills a hole in our development system that has held us back for decades. Young players, 16-18 years old, who might have had a shot and could have played in World Cups between 1986 and 2022 were forced to play in Europe before MLS came along and even after MLS the number of spots was limited and only slightly better geographically.

So let's keep the discussion based on reality and what people are actually saying please.

I agree with this and what others have said about CPL.  But where I think long term it makes the most sense is that 1. It gives a real local pathway to players all around the country that didn’t exist before.  The 3 MLS sides do that for the 3 largest markets in Canada but that leaves the rest of the country without a local pathway for development; I foresee in the future many more players at the national level coming from the maritime or prairies or even Ottawa than previously (and I know David came from Ottawa) as they will grow up attending live local professional matches that will give them something to dream about, which leads to my 2. Point, we will never become a footballing nation unless the country buys in beyond the 3 largest cities.  That doesn’t mean we will become like a European country where football dominates as I don’t see it ever replacing hockey as the number 1 sport.  But soccer could become the dominant summer sport, and surpass (or stay ahead) of CFL, basketball, and baseball in the way that it does in the Scandi countries like Sweden and others like Russia and Czech Republic who also have hockey as their number one sport or at least one that is a strong second to football.

[mpg_29]

10 hours ago, ted said:

The importance of the CanPL is that is fills a hole in our development system that has held us back for decades. Young players, 16-18 years old, who might have had a shot and could have played in World Cups between 1986 and 2022 were forced to play in Europe before MLS came along and even after MLS the number of spots was limited and only slightly better geographically.

 

Well I would say it was worse than being forced to play elsewhere...it was that so many young players just went undiscovered altogether. There was no pathway.

The 3 Canadian MLS teams definitely do fill a gap these days. The question is it as thorough and extensive as with 8(potentially more) CPL teams. Most definitely not. 

Also my memory could be bad on this but it has definitely felt like the Canadian MLS teams play more Canadians since the CPL has started than what it was like before. The CPL puts some pressure on them just from a domestic market perspective.

 

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

 

Also my memory could be bad on this but it has definitely felt like the Canadian MLS teams play more Canadians since the CPL has started than what it was like before. The CPL puts some pressure on them just from a domestic market perspective.

 

I agree with this point!

In my opinion the 3 MLS clubs didn't really take developing Canadian players seriously enough until they had competition from the CPL

[ShaneC06]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

I agree with this point!

In my opinion the 3 MLS clubs didn't really take developing Canadian players seriously enough until they had competition from the CPL

To be fair, wasn't there an American ratio rule up until five years ago for MLS clubs? People forget it's main goal is still for it to be an "American development league" 

[narduch]

24 minutes ago, ShaneC06 said:

To be fair, wasn't there an American ratio rule up until five years ago for MLS clubs? People forget it's main goal is still for it to be an "American development league" 

No. That was never a thing.

The Canadian teams are allowed to count Americans as domestics. They still can. And it's still bullshit

[Ivan]

21 hours ago, smeghead said:

an even better listen is fridays footy prime interview. More nuanched than Craigs jaded rant. Its amateur hour at the CSA.

Yup, just listened to it.  That Eva Havaris is very impressive.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

21 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned but the creation of the CPL caused the MLS to “relax” some of the restrictions in Canadian players in US teams, ...

That's a narrative that gets pushed a lot on here but how do we know that wouldn't have happened anyway even if CanPL hadn't emerged? Think the honest answer would be that we don't know for sure either way so that's very much in the realm of conjecture.

Have been doing a lot of travelling in recent days but would have thought the main talking point at the moment should be whether as appeared to be implied by the Westhead (?) article the second 10 year option on access to CMNT and CWNT sponsorship revenues is something that CSB can implement unilaterally.

 

 

[narduch]

21 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned but the creation of the CPL caused the MLS to “relax” some of the restrictions in Canadian players in US teams, making it possible for more Canadians across the league, which is also helpful for the National team now and will continue to be in future years. 

And it still didn't go far enough.

Its ludicrous that guys like Crepeau and Henry are internationals.

 

[Ivan]

13 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

 

Have been doing a lot of travelling in recent days but would have thought the main talking point at the moment should be whether as appeared to be implied by the Westhead (?) article the second 10 year option on access to CMNT and CWNT sponsorship revenues is something that CSB can implement unilaterally.

 

 

Good point.  Eva Havaris, referenced in a post above, was part of the CSB negotiation (or was aware of it) and stated on the Podcast that the length of the deal (10 years, plus an option for an additional 10) was to ensure the stability of the league.

[RS]

On 7/16/2022 at 12:27 PM, narduch said:

People really going to site Sports Flu, who is obviously taking the piss out of you all

 

He also loves talking shit about our players.

As someone who too often falls for his bullshit, I'm going to try to ignore his posts more often.

[TOcanadafan]

3 hours ago, Ivan said:

Yup, just listened to it.  That Eva Havaris is very impressive.

Agreed. And completely slammed the CSA… doesn’t want anything to do with the rotting stink.

The scary thing is that she said the Tennis Canada turnaround started 20 years ago, and just now in the past 5 years we’re seeing the results.  

[Kent]

I'm repeating some things others have said, but here are some of my thoughts, mainly in response to @phil03's comments.

A single World Cup appearance will get more attention than a single CPL season, yes. But you can't just get to World Cups without somehow earning it. Making it to the 1986 World Cup wasn't enough of an inspiration to sustain success. It took 36 more years to make it back.

Just because CPL is where it is at now doesn't mean there isn't any room for growth. That's just silly. I'm looking up some numbers and seeing that in the 1920's the Toronto Maple Leafs were drawing fewer than 7k fans per game. In the 1950's they were drawing about 13k per game. That's growth, how on earth could that happen? And wait, it continued! In the 1970's they were drawing about 16k, and since the 2000's it's up to 19k. There is absolutely room for growth for the CPL, time will tell if the growth happens or not, but you can't say there is no chance for it to grow.

I got the sense that Phil03 was saying since CPL can't reasonably expect to compete on a financial or competitive level with leagues like MLS, Liga MX, Premier League, Bundesliga, Serie A, and La Liga, that means it can't make an impact on Canada and it's national teams. The Polish, Danish, and Croatia leagues can't compete with those big 4 European leagues, the Polish league is all the way down in 28th by UEFA league rankings, Denmark is 19th and Croatia is 18th, but do you think Poland, Denmark, or Croatia would be able to qualify for 2022 if they had never had their own pro league? Besides, the CPL absolutely has the potential to compete with and overtake the likes of the Costa Rican, Honduran, and Panamanian leagues. These are our CONCACAF competition, so even if that goal is met that will have been worthwhile.

As others have mentioned, I do believe (and of course this can't be proved) that the CPL has created a bit of pressure on MLS teams to play more Canadians, and as has been pointed out by CPL grads playing on CPL teams, has given more opportunity for it to happen. In a world with just the 3 MLS teams and no CPL there will be times when, let's say 1 or 2 of those teams will be pretty set with their lineup, doing well in the league and not having much room for young Canadians to break into the team. Like let's say Alex Bono locks down the GK position for TFC for the next 10 or 15 years. That means there are only 2 Canadian teams to unearth a goalkeeper. With the CPL all of a sudden instead of relying on just 3 teams, we have 11, and that number could grow. We will not get more MLS teams, but could get more CPL teams.

As for the importance of academies, I'm not so convinced that is the way to go. It doesn't seem like there is magical coaching going on at the academies that produce players that aren't being produced elsewhere. And not having an academy could aid in having a broader net. For example, why have 1 team in L1O and choose players from there, when you can choose players from the entire 20ish team league. Although I will say there is value in free to play academies. If there is a financial barrier to playing at the highest youth levels, that is room for improvement. Anyways, looking at the team from the final qualifying window, plus Alphonso Davies, by my count there were 14 players that didn't leave Canada/USA to develop as a player before playing pro. 6 played in academies (Crepeau, Henry, Adekugbe, Fraser, Kaye, and Davies) and 8 did not (St. Clair, Miller, Johnstone, Laryea, Kone, Buchanon, David, Larin). Really I should have counted how many L1O players are in the list, but I didn't and I've already spent enough time on this post.

[phil03]

6 hours ago, Kent said:

I'm repeating some things others have said, but here are some of my thoughts, mainly in response to @phil03's comments.

I. A single World Cup appearance will get more attention than a single CPL season, yes. But you can't just get to World Cups without somehow earning it. Making it to the 1986 World Cup wasn't enough of an inspiration to sustain success. It took 36 more years to make it back.

II. Just because CPL is where it is at now doesn't mean there isn't any room for growth. That's just silly. I'm looking up some numbers and seeing that in the 1920's the Toronto Maple Leafs were drawing fewer than 7k fans per game. In the 1950's they were drawing about 13k per game. That's growth, how on earth could that happen? And wait, it continued! In the 1970's they were drawing about 16k, and since the 2000's it's up to 19k. There is absolutely room for growth for the CPL, time will tell if the growth happens or not, but you can't say there is no chance for it to grow.

III. I got the sense that Phil03 was saying since CPL can't reasonably expect to compete on a financial or competitive level with leagues like MLS, Liga MX, Premier League, Bundesliga, Serie A, and La Liga, that means it can't make an impact on Canada and it's national teams. The Polish, Danish, and Croatia leagues can't compete with those big 4 European leagues, the Polish league is all the way down in 28th by UEFA league rankings, Denmark is 19th and Croatia is 18th, but do you think Poland, Denmark, or Croatia would be able to qualify for 2022 if they had never had their own pro league? IV. Besides, the CPL absolutely has the potential to compete with and overtake the likes of the Costa Rican, Honduran, and Panamanian leagues. These are our CONCACAF competition, so even if that goal is met that will have been worthwhile.

V. As others have mentioned, I do believe (and of course this can't be proved) that the CPL has created a bit of pressure on MLS teams to play more Canadians, and as has been pointed out by CPL grads playing on CPL teams, has given more opportunity for it to happen. In a world with just the 3 MLS teams and no CPL there will be times when, let's say 1 or 2 of those teams will be pretty set with their lineup, doing well in the league and not having much room for young Canadians to break into the team. Like let's say Alex Bono locks down the GK position for TFC for the next 10 or 15 years. That means there are only 2 Canadian teams to unearth a goalkeeper. With the CPL all of a sudden instead of relying on just 3 teams, we have 11, and that number could grow. We will not get more MLS teams, but could get more CPL teams.

VI. As for the importance of academies, I'm not so convinced that is the way to go. It doesn't seem like there is magical coaching going on at the academies that produce players that aren't being produced elsewhere. And not having an academy could aid in having a broader net. For example, why have 1 team in L1O and choose players from there, when you can choose players from the entire 20ish team league. Although I will say there is value in free to play academies. If there is a financial barrier to playing at the highest youth levels, that is room for improvement. Anyways, looking at the team from the final qualifying window, plus Alphonso Davies, by my count there were 14 players that didn't leave Canada/USA to develop as a player before playing pro. 6 played in academies (Crepeau, Henry, Adekugbe, Fraser, Kaye, and Davies) and 8 did not (St. Clair, Miller, Johnstone, Laryea, Kone, Buchanon, David, Larin). Really I should have counted how many L1O players are in the list, but I didn't and I've already spent enough time on this post.

(Numbers for my ease of answer)

I. And the CPL cannot survive and prosper without the attention that only international games have been able to give Soccer in Canada. I am repeating myself but international competitions are what have the most attention in Canada for Soccer, wether we like it or not, and to build the game in the country that's where we need to succeed. Hell, I'd argue that the for the men's game the World Cup has been the big drawer for a very long time in Canada now. Canada playing there, not just as an host but as a qualified team, going from a therotical possibility to a reality is just massive in term of building the game in the country.

Can the CPL help us keep performing well? Of course, but ultimately for the CPL to be able to work financially in the long run, to have the interest from the public it need, you need a good national program. Mind you, the same relationship also exist for MLS teams IMO, at least to a degree. That's why it should be considered the priority IMO.

II. With all due respect, that's apples and oranges. The NHL was the top league in the world for the number one sport in the country. Its development basically went along with the growth of the sports scene and overall prosperity in Canada. Besside both being sports leagues with clubs in Canada there is no commonality between the two. That doesn't mean that the CPL can't grow, mind you, but IMO there is limits to how much could happen in the forseable future. A pretty healthy grow that allow it to become a solid first among peers in the second tier of CONCACAF (the objectives of the league's owners) and be a solid business model that give pretty wages to players and other employees? Sure. If the national program keep doing well and is the tide that lift all boats. But they won't have the kind of astronomical growth the NHL had in the Hockey world, to use your exemple.

III. I feel there is a bit of misunderstanding here. What I did say was that a tier II CONCACAF league usually doesn't have the level of play to be the basis of a World Cup team, and that, by the very admission of its owners through their public goals, that's what the CPL is, in all probability gonna be. Therefore the main thing the CPL can do for the national team (and I'd therefore argue for both Soccer in Canada in general and their own future as a result) is to help develop players like Waterman and Voturi, who would later play elsewhere and then make it to the CMNT. Look at the squad of the Polish, Danish and Croatian teams you mentioned: most of their players are from bigger leagues abroad.

Would not having a domestic league that could serve to develop them hurt their national teams? Of course, but the reverse is also true: not having the enthusiasm from the public and the occasions to build players' careers created by those national teams would hurt these domestic leagues tremendously. I would freely confess to not be super familiar with the Polish, Danish and Croatian federations but I'd be fairly surprised if they see their domestic leagues as more important then their national teams instead of the other way around.

IV. I would respectfully disagree there. Our natural opponents are the USA and Mexico. That's what Canada's population, wealth and player pool allow us to do. Besside, I'd argue that at least two of these three teams actually help me make my point re players from second tier CONCACAF leagues not being enough to qualify. The team that came close for Panama was mostly players from abroad and the mostly domestic Honduran team crashed and burned despite a pretty massive homefield advantage that I'd argue wouldn't have flied in another confederation. Costa Rica, it is true, has proved to be the exception to that rule but there is few things better then a truly great goalie and you don't get much greater then Nevas. 

V. As you said yourself, there is no proof there is a relation between the two. Furtermore, I would also argue that limiting the presence of Canadians in the MLS to three Canadian clubs is forgetting many good players playing elsewhere, including domestic ones thanks to the homegrown clause (where a player having been developed in an MLS academy is automatically considered domestic). I would agree that its unlikely we will get more then three MLS clubs but a greater access for Canadian players might be possible IMO, and ought to be pursued alongside the CPL rather then seen as an alternative to it.

VI. I have to disagree on this one. If, like everyone more or less seem to agree, the primary role of the CPL is to discover and develop Canadian players and if they are to be given some sizable funds through the deal with CSB to make it happen then I feel its fair to ask them to develop academies to do just that. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by phil03

[SF]

Interesting article on FC Barca and how they have sold some of their TV rights.

Now, they have only sold a minority interest to be clear.  There are also some numbers that have been released, so you can get a decent picture of the terms of the transaction.

A few of points that come to mind. 

One, the selling of the TV rights isn't that unusual (you also see it in other industries). 

Two, these numbers suggest this is a decent deal for FCB. Of course, that could change over the term as the value of the rights changes.

Three, it's really hard to judge the CSA/CSB deal without some sense of the numbers. Based on what has been reported, it sounds like an awful deal for the CSA, but hard to judge definitively.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/barcelona-espbarcelona/story/4699069/barcelona-sell-further-15-percent-of-tv-rights-to-investment-firm-sixth-street-sources

[Kent]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

III. I feel there is a bit of misunderstanding here. What I did say was that a tier II CONCACAF league usually doesn't have the level of play to be the basis of a World Cup team, and that, by the very admission of its owners through their public goals, that's what the CPL is, in all probability gonna be. Therefore the main thing the CPL can do for the national team (and I'd therefore argue for both Soccer in Canada in general and their own future as a result) is to help develop players like Waterman and Voturi, who would later play elsewhere and then make it to the CMNT. Look at the squad of the Polish, Danish and Croatian teams you mentioned: most of their players are from bigger leagues abroad.

I don't really know anything about Poland, Denmark, or Croatia either, but yes I agree that their players play in bigger leagues than their domestic leagues. My point is just that if they didn't have their domestic league, probably many of those players don't end up playing in those bigger leagues. I'm not sure what your endgame is to your point about the national team being more important than the CPL, but if we set up our league to fail, our national team will eventually fail as well. It's kind of like not taking World Cup Qualifiers seriously because the important games are in the World Cup. You can't get there without the other.

The point isn't to have current CPL players on the national team. Like you said, players from the CPL through good performances can move on to bigger leagues and make the national team that way. I'm sure most of the players from the teams I mentioned have spent time playing in their domestic league at some point. Same with central american teams. For example, Keylor Navas got his start at Saprissa in Costa Rica. And what I meant about Honduras, Costa Rica, and Panama being our competition is that if we can establish ourselves firmly above them at a league level and national team level, that would be great. That doesn't mean we can't also approach, match, and/or surpass USA and Mexico.

[phil03]

38 minutes ago, Kent said:

I'm not sure what your endgame is to your point about the national team being more important than the CPL, but if we set up our league to fail, our national team will eventually fail as well. It's kind of like not taking World Cup Qualifiers seriously because the important games are in the World Cup. You can't get there without the other.

The post you originally answered too was more of a rebutal of arguments made by others that I felt were a bit overoptimistic and/or exagerated how much I felt it could do in the near future.

More broadly though, my point was that it shouldn't be seen as THE project on which everything depend for the future, which is how I read some of the comments at least. Yeah, the CPL is important and worth doing (altough I do feel it is worth point out that the current qualifications show it is at least possible to make it without having a domestic league), really important even, but there is other important stuff as well: a better youth program, more access for Canadian players to MLS, figuring out a way to end the current mess with the deal and having structures put in place in the CSA to avoid a repeat of it or of the Iran fiasco (or at least limit the ods of it happening again), working to generate more interest in mainstream media (as this is still where most Canadians take most of their news in one way or another), continuing to build the women's game with perhaps a female equivalent of the CPL happening, etc... All those things are part of the broader picture too and just like the CPL can help the success of several of those several of those can help the success of the CPL

Essentially my point is that tunnel vision isn't helping Soccer in Canada in general and, in the mid to long run, it isn't helping the CPL in particular either as a result.

[Aird25]

Folks, CSB is not just CPL. I don’t understand this conversation 

https://canpl.ca/article/league1-canada-launches-womens-inter-provincial-championship