Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[Ivan]

20 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I find all this complaining about Westhead being biased or trying to topple giants on behalf of TSN pretty laughable.  It's like looking for a conspiracy where there isn't one.

The players striking was a big story.  Obviously a guy whose bread and butter are stories like that is going to latch on. 

You don't want a biased article written about you?  Then maybe you should answer his phone calls and comment so that he can write both sides.  I can understand the CSA being caught off-guard by his first article, but there is no excuse for the second one.  The minute you find out that you have someone like Westhead looking into you, you hire a PR firm and you make sure you have your story straight the next time he comes around.  A journalist can't write both sides if he only has access to one. 

TSN and Sportsnet have shown that they care fuck all about soccer.  They're just trying to drive clicks.  Plus, if this was some master plan by TSN, why would they have allowed the release of the story the night before NHL free agency, their second biggest day of the year?  If they wanted to make this a bigger story, they would've forced Westhead to release it next week after everything has died down so that they stay relevant during the summer doldrums.

I do agree with most of this.  My point was to those criticising OS for there apparently biased coverage, also need to extend those opinions to TSN, and for that matter all other networks with contracts to cover certain leagues.  I mean, how else do you explain headline, front page coverage for the CFL on TSN?  Not looking for a conspiracy, it is a well known fact TV and digital coverage is biased toward their content.

Also, I would never accuse DeGuzman of being a rocket scientist or brain surgeon, or even a rocket surgeon!  But his criticism of CSB (as @Gian-Lucapointed out above) is even more laughable when it is his stated goal to own a team in the CPL and he could eventually be a part of CSB! 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ivan

[Aird25]

37 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I find all this complaining about Westhead being biased or trying to topple giants on behalf of TSN pretty laughable.  It's like looking for a conspiracy where there isn't one.

The players striking was a big story.  Obviously a guy whose bread and butter are stories like that is going to latch on. 

You don't want a biased article written about you?  Then maybe you should answer his phone calls and comment so that he can write both sides.  I can understand the CSA being caught off-guard by his first article, but there is no excuse for the second one.  The minute you find out that you have someone like Westhead looking into you, you hire a PR firm and you make sure you have your story straight the next time he comes around.  A journalist can't write both sides if he only has access to one. 

TSN and Sportsnet have shown that they care fuck all about soccer.  They're just trying to drive clicks.  Plus, if this was some master plan by TSN, why would they have allowed the release of the story the night before NHL free agency, their second biggest day of the year?  If they wanted to make this a bigger story, they would've forced Westhead to release it next week after everything has died down so that they stay relevant during the summer doldrums.

I’m not at all saying that’s why this article was written but I think it was listening to Craig Forrest in the Footy Prime podcast where I got some real incite into the gate keeping that the major networks in Canada do, and the attitude they would hold towards a major foreign player like MediaPro coming in

[TOcanadafan]

40 minutes ago, The Pessimist said:

 

This all about greed.

Ya, it’s also about the greed of some shady businessmen (and the guy that they’ve installed as CSA dictator) who take advantage of a non-profit org which will have real repercussions to the future of the quality of the game in this country.  

You like having no serious national youth program - few camps, friendlies, for the next 20 yrs?  Well this deal will ensure that.  Oh, so you want the Sr. team to play Argentina, France or Brazil in a friendly, well you can’t do that either because all you have is $3M / yr… even as ad revenue for the CMNT rises to peak levels as we lead up to the World Cup.  Again, I’ll restate, the CSB deal was signed AFTER  the awarding of the World Cup to Canada… although the deal had been in the works for some time, that’s an enormous game changer.

Yes, we needed a deal to help jump start the CPL which will improve the game, but we haven’t even peeled off the layer of how the money collected by CSB funnels to the CPL and how much of that actually trickles down to the players, facilities or staff.  

[SpursFlu]

The CSB is so evil and bad but what have we accomplished in the last 3 years? And during a pandemic 

[EJsens1]

6 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

The CSB is so evil and bad but what have we accomplished in the last 3 years? And during a pandemic 

Allow maturing young athletes born in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s to grow up, develop and become really good players over the last 20-30 years who are now hitting their peak. Surely you’re not suggesting that the CSB deal and us qualifying go hand in hand?

[Macktruck]

6 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

The CSB is so evil and bad but what have we accomplished in the last 3 years? And during a pandemic 

I would say most of what has been accomplished comes down to the players and coaches(qualifying for a World Cup for the first time in 36 years) ...the CSB...not so much, Yes the CPL but most would argue that WC qualifying is worth a lot more to the future of soccer in Canada

 

[SpursFlu]

I was referring to what has been accomplished in the boardroom 

CPL - bigger accomplishment than qualifying for the World Cup

Onesoccer

Expanded Voyageurs Cup

League1 Ontario BC etc

Listening to the guests on Onesoccer last night the argument basically was.. we think we are the most amazing soccer players ever and we think the CSA are terrible business people and we think we could be amazing business people also so get out of the way and give us your job. Maybe some of these people should move on and get their own lives and stop trying to leech of other people's accomplishments. That goes for people on this forum Twitter wherever. Everyone just talks a big game and are nothing but full time haters. Let people do their jobs and you go do yours.. whatever the hell that is. Stop falling for the same old traps by these corporate manipulators. They throw out a couple buzzwords and everyone goes running like a dumb dog chasing a tennis ball

Edited July 15, 2022 by SpursFlu

[ted]

1 hour ago, Macktruck said:

...Yes the CPL but most would argue that WC qualifying is worth a lot more to the future of soccer in Canada

That's a very short-term vision of the future. A more long-term vision includes giving as many Canadians a place to play professionally between the ages of 16-20 in Canada. The combination of WC qualifying AND a pro league is the best path to a successful future for the CMNT.

[Free kick]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Bob Young is thought to be the money behind HFX Wanderers as well.

Also.  CSB is headed up by Scott Mitchell.   Who also happens to be Managing Partner and CEO of Hamilton Sports Group and lead league governor for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Mitchell has been with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 2008 when he was appointed President and has served as the CEO of Bob Young Group of Canadian Companies since 2015.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Free kick

[SpursFlu]

3 hours ago, ted said:

That's a very short-term vision of the future. A more long-term vision includes giving as many Canadians a place to play professionally between the ages of 16-20 in Canada. The combination of WC qualifying AND a pro league is the best path to a successful future for the CMNT.

36 team World Cup we were gonna stumble in to it eventually anyways. We beat El Salvador! Wooohooo

A couple times a year let's huddle around a TV kids and watch a bunch of guys who left Canada at 13 play at BMO field against Haiti. What a Canadian soccer experience that would be

Edited July 15, 2022 by SpursFlu

[phil03]

Honestly, the idea that the CPL is somehow a bigger deal for Soccer in Canada then the men's making the World Cup just doesn't fit reality for many reasons but two among them stand out to me.

I) People just care more about international competitions. That's just a fact. The gold medal game vs Sweden was THE Soccer game in term of viewerships and the men's World Cup and Euro usually take more Soccer attention then any club teams despite Canada not achieving anything in the recent past. Even the MLS teams, which have far deeper pockets and had time to establish themselves, basically run on people liking what they see in international tournaments and following these teams to get their fix more regularly. That's just how things work for most sports in most countries, I am affraid. Like, in Canada there is only four sports where professional leagues are bigger: Giridon, Hockey, Basketball and Baseball, and even then only for the men's side of things. The first of them basically doesn't matter in enough countries to have an international scene and the other three have Canadian teams on the top league in the World for their sport. Oh, and in Hockey's case the teams sometime had litterally more then a century to make themselves an ubiquitous part of our culture...

Sure, an established league like the MLS can command big tv deals but that's purely based on the number of games available. Go on American Soccer medias and basically everyone will tell you that the MLS just need the national teams to do well for the interest in the game to remain high overall. Same thing for the CPL in Canada. There is just no way to overstate how big it is that Canada at the men's world cup just went from a distant memory and a theoretical possibility to a present day reality. It is THE biggest thing that could happen to foster interest in the game in Canada (well, except making a run at the World Cup first, obviously, but you need to qualify first for that...) and it is the rising tide that lift all boat.

Now, we can debate whether that's good or bad but honestly it just doesn't matter IMO. This is where Canadians are at when it come to Soccer, when it come to most sports. It might change at some point down the line but it won't be anytime soon and if we want to build the game in the country we need to accept things how they are and go from there. 

II) The CPL is not gonna become a powerhouse among Soccer leagues anytime soon, even inside CONCACAF. We do not have the massive population and GDP the US has or the cultural hegemony for the sports Mexico has. That's not me saying it, its the CPL themselves as their target is to become the third best league in CONCACAF, nothing more. This has a few consequences:

a) It obviously mean that, to be self sustainable financially at some point, it need the game to keep growing in popularity and, as per point one, the best way for that are our national teams. 

b) It mean that the wages are never gonna be that great anytime soon, altough they can definitely get better, especially for something that tend to be short career, and that the main draw for the players would be the chance to immitate Waterman and join the much maligned MLS or Volturi and join the ''kids who left at 13'' in a descent European club. 

c) The ods of players from CPL clubs playing for the national team in descent numbers are pretty small while the ods of CPL clubs to  do very well in CONCACAF champions league are barely better. This means that the CPL isn't so much an end in and of itself but a mean when it come to Canadian soccer in general, and I say that as a guy who is faithfully following my local CPL team. Its role is to build up the Waterman and Volturi of this world, to hopefully find some that might have gone under the radar in the past and develop them (sidenote: alongside not having French publications while calling themselves the Canadian league the fact that most CPL don't have academy is, IMO at least, the biggest thing to critic about the league) as well as playing a similar role for journalists, coaches and refs.

None of that mean that the CPL isn't worth supporting and that its existence isn't good for Canadian Soccer, of course but we need to avoid getting starry eyed at dreams of us become like European countries when it come to our Soccer culture, and be clear eyed as to what we are getting out of the CPL being a thing and its role in Canada's broader Soccer ecosystem. We need to stop with the disdain toward our MLS clubs coming from some, and recognise both the role they played in building our national team as well as keeping a wider fan base interested in the game outside of international team and that the opportunity to maybe play for them as a domestic player one day is actually a big part of what get players to sign up for the CPL in the first place! If that make me lacking in vision then so be it, I'd rather lack in vision and have sufficient pragmatism and realism then the other way around.

Edited July 16, 2022 by phil03

[Ally McCoist]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, the idea that the CPL is somehow a bigger deal for Soccer in Canada then the men's making the World Cup just doesn't fit reality for many reasons but two among them stand out to me.

I) People just care more about international competitions. That's just a fact. The gold medal game vs Sweden was THE Soccer game in term of viewerships and the men's World Cup and Euro usually take more Soccer attention then any club teams despite Canada not achieving anything in the recent past. Even the MLS teams, which have far deeper pockets and had time to establish themselves, basically run on people liking what they see in international tournaments and following these teams to get their fix more regularly. That's just how things work for most sports in most countries, I am affraid. Like, in Canada there is only four sports where professional leagues are bigger: Guiridon, Hockey, Basketball and Baseball, and even then only for the men's side of things. The first of them basically doesn't matter in enough country to have an international scene and the other three have Canadian teams on the top league in the world for their sport. Oh, and in Hockey's case the teams sometime had litterally more then a century to make themselves an ubiguitous part of our culture...

Sure, an established league like the MLS can command big tv deals but that's purely based on the number of games available. Go on American Soccer medias and basically everyone will tell you that the MLS just need the national teams to do well for the interest in the game to remain high overall. Same thing for the CPL in Canada. There is just no way to overstate how big it is that Canada at the men's world cup just went from a distant memory and a theoretical possibility to a present day reality. It is THE biggest thing that could happen to foster interest in the game in Canada (well, except making a run at the World Cup first, obviously, but you need to qualify first for that...) and it is the rising tide that lift all boat.

Now, we can debate whether that's good or bad but honestly it just doesn't matter IMO. This is where Canadians are at when it come to Soccer, when it come to most sports. It might change at some point down the line but it won't be anytime soon and if we want to build the game in the country we need to accept things how they are and go from there. 

II) The CPL is not gonna become a powerhouse among Soccer leagues anytime soon, even inside CONCACAF. We do not have the massive population and GDP the US has or the cultural hegemony for the sports Mexico has. That's not me saying it, its the CPL themselves as their target is to become the third best league in CONCACAF, nothing more. This has a few consequences:

a) It obviously mean that, to be self sustainable financially at some point, it need the game to keep growing in popularity and, as per point one, the best way for that are our national teams. 

b) It mean that the wages are never gonna be that great anytime soon, altough they can definitely get better, especially for something that tend to be short career, and that the main draw for the players would be the chance to immitate Waterman and join the much maligned MLS or Volturi and join the ''kids who left at 13'' in a descent European club. 

c) The ods of players from CPL clubs playing for the national team in descent numbers are pretty small while the ods of CPL clubs do very well in CONCACAF champions league are barely better. This means that the CPL isn't so much an end in and of itself but a mean when it come to Canadian soccer in general, and I say that as a guy who is faithfully following my local CPL team. Its role is to build up the Waterman and Volturi of this world, to hopefully to find some that might have gone under the radar in the past and develop them (sidenote: alongside not having French publications while calling themselves the Canadian league the fact that most CPL don't have academy is, IMO at least, the biggest thing to critic about the league) as well as playing a similar role for journalists, coaches and refs.

None of that mean that the CPL isn't worth supporting and that its existence isn't good for Canadian Soccer, of course but we need to need get starry eyed at dreams of us become like European countries when it come to our Soccer culture, and be clear eyed as to what we are getting out of the CPL being a thing and its role in Canada's broader Soccer ecosystem. We need to stop with the disdain toward our MLS clubs coming from some, and recognise both the role they played in building our national team as well as keeping a wider fan base interested in the game outside of international team and that the opportunity to maybe play for them as a domestic player one day is actually a big part of what get players to sign up for the CPL in the first place! If that make me lacking in vision then so be it, I'd rather lack in vision and have sufficient pragmatism and realism then the other way around.

This is the comment everybody has been thinking since the CSB dilemma started but nobody wanted to say it. I think I also made a comment a few weeks back saying something along the lines of "I couldn't care less about the CPL".

[narduch]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, the idea that the CPL is somehow a bigger deal for Soccer in Canada then the men's making the World Cup just doesn't fit reality for many reasons but two among them stand out to me.

Who is saying that?

People are just (rightfully) arguing that having our own league is important.

[Free kick]

2 hours ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, the idea that the CPL is somehow a bigger deal for Soccer in Canada then the men's making the World Cup just doesn't fit reality for many reasons but two among them stand out to me.

I) People just care more about international competitions. That's just a fact. The gold medal game vs Sweden was THE Soccer game in term of viewerships and the men's World Cup and Euro usually take more Soccer attention then any club teams despite Canada not achieving anything in the recent past. Even the MLS teams, which have far deeper pockets and had time to establish themselves, basically run on people liking what they see in international tournaments and following these teams to get their fix more regularly. That's just how things work for most sports in most countries, I am affraid. Like, in Canada there is only four sports where professional leagues are bigger: Guiridon, Hockey, Basketball and Baseball, and even then only for the men's side of things. The first of them basically doesn't matter in enough country to have an international scene and the other three have Canadian teams on the top league in the world for their sport. Oh, and in Hockey's case the teams sometime had litterally more then a century to make themselves an ubiguitous part of our culture...

Sure, an established league like the MLS can command big tv deals but that's purely based on the number of games available. Go on American Soccer medias and basically everyone will tell you that the MLS just need the national teams to do well for the interest in the game to remain high overall. Same thing for the CPL in Canada. There is just no way to overstate how big it is that Canada at the men's world cup just went from a distant memory and a theoretical possibility to a present day reality. It is THE biggest thing that could happen to foster interest in the game in Canada (well, except making a run at the World Cup first, obviously, but you need to qualify first for that...) and it is the rising tide that lift all boat.

Now, we can debate whether that's good or bad but honestly it just doesn't matter IMO. This is where Canadians are at when it come to Soccer, when it come to most sports. It might change at some point down the line but it won't be anytime soon and if we want to build the game in the country we need to accept things how they are and go from there. 

II) The CPL is not gonna become a powerhouse among Soccer leagues anytime soon, even inside CONCACAF. We do not have the massive population and GDP the US has or the cultural hegemony for the sports Mexico has. That's not me saying it, its the CPL themselves as their target is to become the third best league in CONCACAF, nothing more. This has a few consequences:

a) It obviously mean that, to be self sustainable financially at some point, it need the game to keep growing in popularity and, as per point one, the best way for that are our national teams. 

b) It mean that the wages are never gonna be that great anytime soon, altough they can definitely get better, especially for something that tend to be short career, and that the main draw for the players would be the chance to immitate Waterman and join the much maligned MLS or Volturi and join the ''kids who left at 13'' in a descent European club. 

c) The ods of players from CPL clubs playing for the national team in descent numbers are pretty small while the ods of CPL clubs do very well in CONCACAF champions league are barely better. This means that the CPL isn't so much an end in and of itself but a mean when it come to Canadian soccer in general, and I say that as a guy who is faithfully following my local CPL team. Its role is to build up the Waterman and Volturi of this world, to hopefully to find some that might have gone under the radar in the past and develop them (sidenote: alongside not having French publications while calling themselves the Canadian league the fact that most CPL don't have academy is, IMO at least, the biggest thing to critic about the league) as well as playing a similar role for journalists, coaches and refs.

None of that mean that the CPL isn't worth supporting and that its existence isn't good for Canadian Soccer, of course but we need to need get starry eyed at dreams of us become like European countries when it come to our Soccer culture, and be clear eyed as to what we are getting out of the CPL being a thing and its role in Canada's broader Soccer ecosystem. We need to stop with the disdain toward our MLS clubs coming from some, and recognise both the role they played in building our national team as well as keeping a wider fan base interested in the game outside of international team and that the opportunity to maybe play for them as a domestic player one day is actually a big part of what get players to sign up for the CPL in the first place! If that make me lacking in vision then so be it, I'd rather lack in vision and have sufficient pragmatism and realism then the other way around.

This pretty much sums it up for me.  The CPL is setup in markets where you just cant generate the commercial revenues and broadcast revenues that you would with the teams that are currently in MLS.  That's because of their market size.  And its highly unlikely that even Match day revenues will even come close more so given the state of the facilities that CPL teams play in.  What this means is that CPL teams are forced and will continue forever to operate on budgets more or less similar to what they operate on now.   And on these budgets of approximately half a mill per team,  you will struggle to be professional and you cannot develop world class talent in a semi professional environment.  

You stuck a chord with your point about some people dreaming like Canada is like any other European country.  No European country (nor any other country) has a land mass of 9.9 million square kilometres with only 38 million people.  and 80% of them live within 200 km of the US border and where those three major urban areas account for a similar percentage of the total population.   Hence no credible professional could never make a busines case for a setup whereby clubs only in these markets that would be considered minor pro markets ( at best) in the US and expect operate at any scale to have an environment to develop quality that will ever have any impact internationally.   So if we want to be able to compete internationally, its going to be MLS that will have to develop the talent to do so.  

Having said all that, I still have have no issues with CPL.   If the game is being played and followed by even a 2-3K in a greater number of towns and cities, then all the better.    What people (investors) do with with their money, is none of our business.   Where I have an issue with is ( as you aptly said) is the disdain towards MLS, MLS clubs and what MLS has been able to do for soccer in Canada over the past 15 years.   What's troubling is the fact that some believe that we would be better off if the existing MLS clubs pull out and compete and operate in a competition the scale of CPL.   You cant sway rational people to deny what anyone can see when they watch an MLS match versus a CPL match.   Clubs in Tor, Van & Mtl would be forgoing a massive amount commercial revenues and broadcast revenues and the product would suffer.  They would get dragged down much closer to a semi- pro level  than the others would ever gate raised to pro status.   We would back to the dark days of 1986-2007.   I fairly am confident that i know why some propagate these viewpoint, but I wouldnt go there.   I will just say this,  there is a lot petty regionalism in this country and we are unique in the world (in a negative way) in the sence every community feels that they are entitled to the same perks and amenities as the major urban centres.   And if they cant get it,  then they bash.  Professional sports and sports teams are a perfect example. 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Free kick

[Free kick]

16 minutes ago, narduch said:

Who is saying that?

People are just (rightfully) arguing that having our own league is important.

At least on person (in an earlier post) did say or allude to just that

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

Honestly, the idea that the CPL is somehow a bigger deal for Soccer in Canada then the men's making the World Cup just doesn't fit reality for many reasons but two among them stand out to me.

I) People just care more about international competitions. That's just a fact. The gold medal game vs Sweden was THE Soccer game in term of viewerships and the men's World Cup and Euro usually take more Soccer attention then any club teams despite Canada not achieving anything in the recent past. Even the MLS teams, which have far deeper pockets and had time to establish themselves, basically run on people liking what they see in international tournaments and following these teams to get their fix more regularly. That's just how things work for most sports in most countries, I am affraid. Like, in Canada there is only four sports where professional leagues are bigger: Guiridon, Hockey, Basketball and Baseball, and even then only for the men's side of things. The first of them basically doesn't matter in enough country to have an international scene and the other three have Canadian teams on the top league in the world for their sport. Oh, and in Hockey's case the teams sometime had litterally more then a century to make themselves an ubiguitous part of our culture...

Sure, an established league like the MLS can command big tv deals but that's purely based on the number of games available. Go on American Soccer medias and basically everyone will tell you that the MLS just need the national teams to do well for the interest in the game to remain high overall. Same thing for the CPL in Canada. There is just no way to overstate how big it is that Canada at the men's world cup just went from a distant memory and a theoretical possibility to a present day reality. It is THE biggest thing that could happen to foster interest in the game in Canada (well, except making a run at the World Cup first, obviously, but you need to qualify first for that...) and it is the rising tide that lift all boat.

Now, we can debate whether that's good or bad but honestly it just doesn't matter IMO. This is where Canadians are at when it come to Soccer, when it come to most sports. It might change at some point down the line but it won't be anytime soon and if we want to build the game in the country we need to accept things how they are and go from there. 

II) The CPL is not gonna become a powerhouse among Soccer leagues anytime soon, even inside CONCACAF. We do not have the massive population and GDP the US has or the cultural hegemony for the sports Mexico has. That's not me saying it, its the CPL themselves as their target is to become the third best league in CONCACAF, nothing more. This has a few consequences:

a) It obviously mean that, to be self sustainable financially at some point, it need the game to keep growing in popularity and, as per point one, the best way for that are our national teams. 

b) It mean that the wages are never gonna be that great anytime soon, altough they can definitely get better, especially for something that tend to be short career, and that the main draw for the players would be the chance to immitate Waterman and join the much maligned MLS or Volturi and join the ''kids who left at 13'' in a descent European club. 

c) The ods of players from CPL clubs playing for the national team in descent numbers are pretty small while the ods of CPL clubs do very well in CONCACAF champions league are barely better. This means that the CPL isn't so much an end in and of itself but a mean when it come to Canadian soccer in general, and I say that as a guy who is faithfully following my local CPL team. Its role is to build up the Waterman and Volturi of this world, to hopefully to find some that might have gone under the radar in the past and develop them (sidenote: alongside not having French publications while calling themselves the Canadian league the fact that most CPL don't have academy is, IMO at least, the biggest thing to critic about the league) as well as playing a similar role for journalists, coaches and refs.

None of that mean that the CPL isn't worth supporting and that its existence isn't good for Canadian Soccer, of course but we need to need get starry eyed at dreams of us become like European countries when it come to our Soccer culture, and be clear eyed as to what we are getting out of the CPL being a thing and its role in Canada's broader Soccer ecosystem. We need to stop with the disdain toward our MLS clubs coming from some, and recognise both the role they played in building our national team as well as keeping a wider fan base interested in the game outside of international team and that the opportunity to maybe play for them as a domestic player one day is actually a big part of what get players to sign up for the CPL in the first place! If that make me lacking in vision then so be it, I'd rather lack in vision and have sufficient pragmatism and realism then the other way around.

The reason this doesn't make any sense is that you are mudding up the core debate. 

The NT made the WC with the CSB present.

The CPL coincides with the best period of Canadian soccer, men and women in fact. 

The CSB is facilitating a league and thus pro development in the country, which is an essential piece of mid to long term NT future. The sustainability of that is not incompatible with anything the senior men or women are talking about. In fact the women are calling for a league and the men support it. 

Then, there is no evidence the CSB will limit either the men's or women's prrogramne to 2026, and maybe not beyond. In both cases on field success is getting players better club contracts and better sponsorship deals. Our women have never had so few NCAA amateurs in their ranks. The market value of the men, even excluding Davies, has risen sharply even just this year. 

The players have a decent offer on the table for their WC bonus with the CSB operative. The CSA offer is not bad and irs comparable and even better than other WC team bonuses. Them not getting a massively higher bonus cannot be attributed to the CSB, at least not entirely. There are other objective factors limiting CSA revenue streams (many historical and not CSB related, then 7 home qualifiers during Covid, or their boycotting the Panama game with major entailing revenue loss).

Anyways, the difference of a bonus between 60 or 90 thousand for each player, or getting 6 free tickets each for family instead of 2, is not going to affect their play at the WC and if it does they're chumps. If anyone is  here blaming the CSA if they don't get out of the group then y they are too, has to be said. 

Arguing a one or the other scenario and concluding the National Teams are way more important than the CPL is effectively arguing off topic. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[phil03]

21 hours ago, Ally McCoist said:

This is the comment everybody has been thinking since the CSB dilemma started but nobody wanted to say it. I think I also made a comment a few weeks back saying something along the lines of "I couldn't care less about the CPL".

I mean, I do care about and support them. What I will admit is that I care more about (especially) the national programs and my MLS club then any CPL team. Others feel differently and that's 100% fine but if we are to discuss how to move the game forward in the country we need to look at what the public as a whole care about or can be made to care about and I'd argue that by that metric the CPL's natural role and situation is to depend on and serve the successes of our national programs.

21 hours ago, narduch said:

Who is saying that?

People are just (rightfully) arguing that having our own league is important.

At least one person said so explicitely:

On 7/15/2022 at 10:37 AM, SpursFlu said:

I was referring to what has been accomplished in the boardroom 

CPL - bigger accomplishment than qualifying for the World Cup

Now, I agree that the CPL being a thing is definitely a plus and that it definitely fulfill a need for more opportunity for Canadian players. All that I am saying is that people's expectations in term of what the league can do for the game in Canada in the forseable future might not be realistic and that we should be able to both criticise the CPL where it is warranted, such as the absence of French and the small number of academies, as well as having a fairer take on the MLS' teams contributions.

21 hours ago, Free kick said:

This pretty much sums it up for me.  The CPL is setup in markets where you just cant generate the commercial revenues and broadcast revenues that you would with the teams that are currently in MLS.  That's because of their market size.  And its highly unlikely that even Match day revenues will even come close more so given the state of the facilities that CPL teams play in.  What this means is that CPL teams are forced and will continue forever to operate on budgets more or less similar to what they operate on now.   And on these budgets of approximately half a mill per team,  you will struggle to be professional and you cannot develop world class talent in a semi professional environment.  

You stuck a chord with your point about some people dreaming like Canada is like any other European country.  No European country (nor any other country) has a land mass of 9.9 million square kilometres with only 38 million people.  and 80% of them live within 200 km of the US border and where those three major urban areas account for a similar percentage of the total population.   Hence no credible professional could never make a busines case for a setup whereby clubs only in these markets that would be considered minor pro markets ( at best) in the US and expect operate at any scale to have an environment to develop quality that will ever have any impact internationally.   So if we want to be able to compete internationally, its going to be MLS that will have to develop the talent to do so.  

Having said all that, I still have have no issues with CPL.   If the game is being played and followed by even a 2-3K in a greater number of towns and cities, then all the better.    What people (investors) do with with their money, is none of our business.   Where is have an issue with is ( as you aptly said) is the disdain towards MLS, MLS clubs and what MLS has been able to do for soccer in Canada over the past 15 years.   What's troubling is the fact that some believe that we would be better off if the existing MLS clubs pull out and compete and operate in a competition the scale of CPL.   yeah might very marginally help a few clubs but there clubs would be forgoing a massive amount commercial revenues and broadcast revenues.   So they get dragged down much closer to a semi- pro level  than the others would ever gate raised to pro status.   We would back to the dark days of 1986-2007.   I fairly confident that i know why some propage these viewpoint, but i would go there.   But i will just say this,  there is a lot petty regionalism in this country and we are unique in the world (in a negative way) in the sence every community feels that they are entitled to the same perks and amenities as the major urban centres.   

 

Staying asside of the political side if things (in fact, I actually think the CPL would be actually be better served by some smaller markers where they can repeat their Halifax's success and be the big game in town inquestionably while playing) I'd generally argue that forcing teams in a league against their will isn't good for the teams or league they'd be in. It just cause divisions, infighting and a poisonous atmosphere. 

I'd also argue we ought to be able to both walk and chew gum at the same time, if that make sense? We ought to be able to help out or MLS club, defend the homegrown clause that give access to the MLS of tons of Canadian players, and work for greater access for Canadian players while also working on making the CPL vibrant, prosperous and able to play a key role in the development of the game in Canada. And yeah, as much as it is a bummer to admit it players from a tier two CONCACAF league aren't enough to qualify to the World Cup (Costa Rica is the exception but much of it is Navas-related) and the CPL is unlikely to make it above that in the forseable future.

Hell, it would be a mid to long term project to negociate it but some kind of partnership where all, or perhaps at least one or ton per team, players coming from the CPL to the MLS wouldn't count as foreign players in American team would be awesome!

21 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The reason this doesn't make any sense is that you are mudding up the core debate. 

The NT made the WC with the CSB present.

The CPL coincides with the best period of Canadian soccer, men and women in fact. 

The CSB is facilitating a league and thus pro development in the country, which is an essential piece of mid to long term NT future. The sustainably of that is not incompatible with anything the senior men or women are talking about. In fact the women are calling for a league and the men support it. 

The players have a decent offer on the table for their WC bonus with the CSB operative. Them not getting a massively higher bonus cannot be attributed to the CSB, at least not entirely. There are other objective factors limiting CSA revenue streams (many historical and not CSB related, 7 home qualifiers during Covid, or their boycotting the Panama game with major entailing revenue loss).

Anyways, the difference of a bonus between 60 or 90 thousand for each player, or getting 6 free tickets each for family instead of 2, is not going to affect their play at the WC and if it does they're chumps.

Arguing a one or the other scenario and concluding the National Teams are way more important than the CPL is effectively arguing off topic. 

I fail to see the link between the CPL and the national teams successes considering neither had a CPL player, or even a player having played in the CPL, in them. It obviously might change going forward (perhaps as early as the World Cup with Waterman) but right now the two are as separate on a performance level as they are linked on a business one. More broadly, and while aknowledging the other factors you brought up, I'd argue that the whole reason the crisis spun as badly as it had was because Bontis said ''we can't give you more money due to the CSB deal'' and that, for better or worse, it does bring the whole take the CSA has on the CPL in the debate.

I would also respectfully disagree that my take was ''one or the other''. I made sure to emphatically say that I think the CPL is good, that its role is meaningful and that I have my team that I support. I simply argued that we need to be more realistic in crafting its role in Canadian Soccer and that having it as the number one priority isn't wise, that's all.

Edited July 17, 2022 by phil03

[TOcanadafan]

19 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The reason this doesn't make any sense is that you are mudding up the core debate. 

The NT made the WC with the CSB present.

The CPL coincides with the best period of Canadian soccer, men and women in fact. 

The CSB is facilitating a league and thus pro development in the country, which is an essential piece of mid to long term NT future. The sustainably of that is not incompatible with anything the senior men or women are talking about. In fact the women are calling for a league and the men support it. 

The players have a decent offer on the table for their WC bonus with the CSB operative. Them not getting a massively higher bonus cannot be attributed to the CSB, at least not entirely. There are other objective factors limiting CSA revenue streams (many historical and not CSB related, 7 home qualifiers during Covid, or their boycotting the Panama game with major entailing revenue loss).

Anyways, the difference of a bonus between 60 or 90 thousand for each player, or getting 6 free tickets each for family instead of 2, is not going to affect their play at the WC and if it does they're chumps.

Arguing a one or the other scenario and concluding the National Teams are way more important than the CPL is effectively arguing off topic. 

It’s not as simple as CPL vs player bonuses.  From the sounds of it, the current CSB deal is going to hamper funding to the National Team programs at all age levels…by keeping it at the current levels, where we can’t put together enough youth team camps.  And even at the senior level, we’ve had so many problems putting together quality camps with decent friendlies because of lack of funds. This CSB deal keeps our national programs at the poverty level.

Edited July 16, 2022 by TOcanadafan

[narduch]

People really going to site Sports Flu, who is obviously taking the piss out of you all

 

[Aird25]

1 hour ago, Free kick said:

I will just say this,  there is a lot petty regionalism in this country and we are unique in the world (in a negative way) in the sence every community feels that they are entitled to the same perks and amenities as the major urban centres.   And if they cant get it,  then they bash.

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, TOcanadafan said:

It’s not as simple as CPL vs player bonuses.  From the sounds of it, the current CSB deal is going to hamper funding to the National Team programs at all age levels…by keeping it at the current levels, where we can’t put together enough youth team camps.  And even at the senior level, we’ve had so many problems putting together quality camps with decent friendlies because of lack of funds. This CSB deal keeps our national programs at the poverty level.

You've made this point a few times and I don't know how you are coming to the conclusion that the CSB deal hampers the NT camp funding.  I would have thought that when the CSA made the deal with CSB, they would have budgeted what they need to run the organisation properly with the right amount of age level camps .  They would have thought the $3M per year in advertising revenue would be enough (along with other revenue streams) to run required camps.  The fact that the players are asking for more than the WCQ bonus is what is hampering the revenue, not the CSB deal. 

Although, while typing this, I see the dichotomy between the fixed commercial revenue and the players' ask.

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, TOcanadafan said:

It’s not as simple as CPL vs player bonuses.  From the sounds of it, the current CSB deal is going to hamper funding to the National Team programs at all age levels…by keeping it at the current levels, where we can’t put together enough youth team camps.  And even at the senior level, we’ve had so many problems putting together quality camps with decent friendlies because of lack of funds. This CSB deal keeps our national programs at the poverty level.

Listen to Craig Forrest's tirade on the Footy Prime podcast from Wednesday, July 13th.  I would think he knows a lot more about this than we do!

[Aird25]

24 minutes ago, Ivan said:

Listen to Craig Forrest's tirade on the Footy Prime podcast from Wednesday, July 13th.  I would think he knows a lot more about this than we do!

A must listen.

[smeghead]

an even better listen is fridays footy prime interview. More nuanched than Craigs jaded rant. Its amateur hour at the CSA.

[Gian-Luca]

Not sure if it has been mentioned but the creation of the CPL caused the MLS to “relax” some of the restrictions in Canadian players in US teams, making it possible for more Canadians across the league, which is also helpful for the National team now and will continue to be in future years.