Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[Shway]

On a side note…if the CSB has that much power, could they influence the waivers required for MLS Canadian teams? I.e forcing teams into the CPL. 

[The Ref]

I watched the press conference from the CSA.  I was surprised how short sighted the CSA is and their bs explanations.  They fail to see the other side.  Their claim of lack of money is not something they can hide behind it.  It is their responsibility to find other income to finance what they committed to.  Perhaps the CSB should simply replace the CSA.  The CSB is far more progressive finding sources of revenue and it would appear that using that income to pay for the CSA staff is a duplicity and a waste of resources.  The CSB so far has proven to have more initiative and intelligence.  The players deserve to be rewarded and fairly compensated and not be treated as half persons.

[SpursFlu]

I wonder if the players have to pay for their flight out of town tomorrow. The players that won't commit to playing on Thursday that is

Edited June 6, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Oh well, very soon - CPL will control the CSA... an extra 10 year option on top of this...

MLS clubs must feel nervous

Potentially 15 years of the CSB paying a flat rate with no chance for renegotiation or competitors should make all of us nervous. 

[RS]

Just now, Watchmen said:

Potentially 15 years of the CSB paying a flat rate with no chance for renegotiation or competitors should make all of us nervous. 

Yeah I’m not sure why @Ansem seems to think that his scenario is a good thing. 

[PegCityCam]

So the CSA sold these multiple rights (media, sponsorship, even WC windfalls?) to what basically amounts to a private business - err "innovative partnership enterprise" - for a guaranteed 3 mil revenue a year from the CSB. In turn, the CSB set up the CPL and has "invested tens of millions" into the sport yadda yadda. Clearly the CSA was in no position to start a league four years ago which would scrapped any possibility of hosting the WC in '26 so it made sense at the time...I guess? The CSA still has rights to ticket and merch revenue, is that right?

Sorry I'm just trying to figure this out. I find it so interesting that the CSA even had the right to sell all of these revenue streams...

Edited June 6, 2022 by PegCityCam

[Watchmen]

16 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

So the CSA sold these multiple rights (media, sponsorship, even WC windfalls?) to what basically amounts to a private business - err "innovative partnership enterprise" - for a guaranteed 3 mil revenue a year from the CSB. In turn, the CSB set up the CPL and has "invested tens of millions" into the sport yadda yadda. Clearly the CSA was in no position to start a league for years ago which would scrapped any possibility of hosting the WC in '26 so it made sense at the time...I guess? The CSA still has rights to ticket and merch revenue, is that right?

Sorry I'm just trying to figure this out. I find it so interesting that the CSA even had the right to sell all of these revenue streams...

This would be where we need more clarity on the CSB.

[BearcatSA]

Every time I keep seeing more details about this CSB-CSA arrangement, I also keep thinking back to Wheels' "you don't want to know how the sausage is made" metaphor from earlier today.

 

 

[BearcatSA]

Just now, Watchmen said:

This would be where we need more clarity on the CSB.

Such as ...is this the equivalent of a bad timeshare contract?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

This Star  article has more info on CSB.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/opinion/2022/06/05/canada-soccer-and-its-players-were-supposed-to-be-preparing-for-the-world-cup-they-werent-prepared-for-this.html

Interesting part of that article:

...So what can be done? The players demanded several steps: a transparent review of the CSB agreement, various changes in Canada Soccer leadership, gender equity in prize money (which Canada Soccer insists it is offering), the development of a women’s domestic league, 40 per cent of World Cup prize money for 2022 and “a comprehensive friends and family package” of tickets, travel and accommodation...

Looks like this is a shared set of demands from the CMNT and CWNT. One of the obvious issues with how CSB was handled was that it involves a men's domestic league that has only made vague aspirational statements about having a women's domestic league in future despite the way CWNT related rights were also handed over. It's also a men's domestic league that none of the CMNT players currently play in or are likely to even in a 2026 context which is not how it was being spun back in 2018.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Gian-Luca]

23 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Interesting part of that article:

...So what can be done? The players demanded several steps: a transparent review of the CSB agreement, various changes in Canada Soccer leadership, gender equity in prize money (which Canada Soccer insists it is offering), the development of a women’s domestic league, 40 per cent of World Cup prize money for 2022 and “a comprehensive friends and family package” of tickets, travel and accommodation...

Looks like this is a shared set of demands from the CMNT and CWNT. One of the obvious issues with how CSB was handled was that it involves a men's domestic league that has only made vague aspirational statements about having a women's domestic league in future despite the way CWNT related rights were also handed over. It's also a men's domestic league that none of the CMNT players currently play in or are likely to even in a 2026 context which is not how it was being spun back in 2018.

There are about three threads going on this subject so it may be worthwhile to re-post relevant tweets here as I gather not everyone reads all of the threads - the women's team is actually calling the CSA proposal a "positive step" while the men have called it "archaic", so they seem poles apart to me rather than coming up with a shared set of demands. Their own statement also takes time to point out to the men that equity doesn't necessarily mean "equal pay". They want "true pay equity" rather than equal percentages of prize money for their respective World Cups (which is what the men put as one of their demands and is not necessarily "equal compensation" as Westhead put it, only be yanksplained on this by Grant Wahl):

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Gian-Luca

[BradMack]

People seem to want to demonize CSB, MediaPro/OneSoccer, the CSA here... I get where ealier posts were coming fromwhen they asked "where were you then?" when it comes to people caring now... However my perspective is more, "do you know what was going on then?" we were ranked in the mid 100s, needed a league to get 2026, most of our players would constantly bring up how much we needed a league to compete (and will still say that about our women)... Well its all true, and its still true, and this is the deal that made that league happen. Everyone was absolutely thrilled with CSB when they signed that Mediapro deal and basically made the CPL stable for 10 years. 

We also have to remember that TSN and Sportsnet never gave a S*** about Canada Soccer before we made the octo. 

Yeah the CSA signed a deal that pretty much means they will only make 3Mil per year off of media and sponsorships for the national teams, but previously they were losing money on the teams. You'd take that deal 100/100 times in 2018. 

[Joe Keeper]

I think we are very crucially missing a much larger context of the events tonight;  events that will now cast an increasingly longer light back in time on the implications of the deal between the CSA and CSB and what it really means. 

This is not as simple as a player protest over world cup bonuses as we so often hear about in the global game. It certainly is that, but, more crucially, it looks like this is an issue of what has become of the actual nature of and power of the CSA versus a for profit company. Essentially, has a traditional national governing body of soccer been (or in the process of being) replaced, by contract and in the legal world, a corporation?

This raises massive questions over what Canadian soccer is and will be for all of us; a business where the development of everything is solely dependent on the whims and goals of shareholders from the national teams down to the grass roots development, or, a formal association of local to regional to provincial soccer bodies that come together for organisation and resource sharing in the forum of a national governing body with ties to the global body. 

The former means national development is at the whims of whether or not a few groups or people can make a profit off of kids kicking a ball with a youth program up to the national team's playing options. Think about that... 

Or, the later, is Canadian soccer development the right and responsibility of associations that are largely not for profit with decisions made that should be first about soccer planning and representative of everyone in the Canadian game.

This is now down to who owns all this association money from the bottom up and the professional money that has been or will be put in to anything Canadian football from the top down. What is "development" of Canadian soccer? How will those decisions be made? What becomes of people's rights as players and vice versa?

I don't mean to bring light to this simply for philosophical debate. This is a concrete issue that is extremely worrying. What the hell has the CSA signed themselves and us over to? The question of this "player deal" is about where the money goes, but only as an example that plays into the larger implications I've raised. 

To put it more bluntly, if the bulk of world cup money (being only the current example) goes to the people with a monetary, "investment" or "speculative" share in CSB, this is more a case of profit stripping with future development of Canadian soccer being destroyed or extremely short changed financially. If the world cup revenue and  the bulk of the future money invested into our game, or more worryingly, as paid by players and parents and clubs to the CSA for organizational support is going into private hands, the world cup run and our supposed wonderful future was sold off in a bad deal a few years ago. 

 

What does CSB have their hands on? Exactly who are all the group and individuals that comprise, profit from and have power in CSB? How are "Canadian soccer assets" defined now? Where does any and all of the money go? What does development mean? How is money dolled out beyond the guaranteed 3 million annually to the CSA? What say do non CSB entities, groups (see Supporters Groups) parents, players coaches, refs and volunteers have in CSA governance and control over CSB? 

In the document linked to in the first post of this thread, the brief announcement of the deal between the CSA and CSB lists the latter as controlling the rights to everything from National teams to grassroots development. It lists (or treats) these things as "properties in a portfolio"... 

If the deal is to give national development a fixed amount or lower percentage while most of any CSA or Canadian Soccer revenue is earmarked for a limited amount of private hands as the term for original or future investment, we are in deeper trouble than anyone dreamed, especially the CanPL.

With all due respect we are not taking this seriously enough. I believe we (fans,supporters, players, consumers, Voyageurs etc) should demand to see this entire deal and have open access to these contracts under the full time span past, present and future. We need to start asking questions openly of the CSA and CSB as a group. 

This is extremely f**ked up and has been going on for too long.This deal, might make the original corruption and incompetence of the old CSA in decades past much worse. 

Nothing in this country will or ever has changed by leaving it to the folks at the top... Time to demand answers. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Joe Keeper

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The mania that surrounded the launch of CanPL and CSB on this forum was certainly reminiscent of a certain Simpsons episode:

Hopefully the CSA board were behaving more rationally and didn't sign off on something that could see their end of the deal that supports the rest of the CSA's programs gobbled up by player compensation payments if the national team rosters ever played hardball over that. As things stand I suspect they could easily be down $1 million for the two cancelled friendlies.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The mania that surrounded the launch of CanPL and CSB on this forum was certainly reminiscent of a certain Simpsons episode:

Hopefully the CSA board were behaving more rationally and didn't sign off on something that could see their end of the deal that supports the rest of the CSA's programs gobbled up by player compensation payments if the national team rosters ever played hardball over that. As things stand I suspect they could easily be down $1 million for the two cancelled friendlies.

Panama gets all expenses, likely over 100k, and should still get their appearance fee. Iran's was 200k (plus 200k expenses) so they likely signed something lower. 

Then there is BC Place staff who have to be paid, while BC Place loses concessions and merchandise %s, meaning whatever the cost of renting the stadium the CSA should pay a compensation. 

So your estimate sounds right. But the losses of potential revenue are even higher. 

BC and Vancouver fans have been treated like shit by all involved, the CSA but also the players. 

[SpursFlu]

The CPL will put more money in the pockets of Canadians footballers than the CMNT ever will 

Edited June 6, 2022 by SpursFlu

[SpursFlu]

4 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Panama gets all expenses, likely over 100k, and should still get their appearance fee. Iran's was 200k (plus 200k expenses) so they likely signed something lower. 

Then there is BC Place staff who have to be paid, while BC Place loses concessions and merchandise %s, meaning whatever the cost of renting the stadium the CSA should pay a compensation. 

So your estimate sounds right. But the losses of potential revenue are even higher. 

BC and Vancouver fans have been treated like shit by all involved, the CSA but also the players. 

I really feel like the players acted like entitled brats on this one. If you consider the Iran situation they really put the boots to the CSA. This isn't something they cooked up at Cactus Club on Friday night. They watched the CSA going thru the Iran situation and watched them scramble to fill the game all the while having this trap set.

And when I say players, we're probably only talking about 6 or 7 guys here

[Meepmeep]

8 hours ago, RJB said:

In 2018, Canada Soccer signed a deal with an organization called Canadian Soccer Business, which is tied to the owners of the five-year-old Canadian Premier League. The deal guaranteed Canada Soccer a baseline level of revenue of $3 million a year, and the vast majority of everything after that — chiefly sponsorship deals and broadcast revenues — goes to CSB. The deal was spearheaded by then Canada Soccer president Victor Montagliani, who has since ascended to the presidency of CONCACAF; it was designed to benefit the CPL, partly because FIFA apparently prefers that World Cup host nations have their own domestic leagues. The CSB deal is for 10 years, and apparently has an option to extend it to 20.

It’s almost like the details of the deal we’re ignored because the goals of Canada Soccer leadership at the time were to host a couple of World Cup Games and get Vic a promotion. 
 

All in an environment where you have a generational talent moving to Bayern.  You have TFC winning MLS and going to CCL final.   
On the Women’s side you have back to back podium finishes. 
The Men’s team had just hired the most successful coach in Canadian history. 

You’d have to be Warner level corrupt or unfit to run a business to be signing away the games future (for $3mil a year?) at that point. 

[narduch]

I think a lot of assumptions here are being made about how lucrative the CSB is. Also that it props up the CPL.

My guess is that CSB only started to look like a good investment after October 2021.

The FC Edmonton owners recently threw in the keys and the league runs that team now. That doesn't scream 'propping up' like I keep seeing on this forum.

That being said, with the CSA being a non profit that receives government funding they absolutely must be transparent about the deal they have made. They can not hide 

Edited June 6, 2022 by narduch

[Ansem]

7 hours ago, RS said:

Yeah I’m not sure why @Ansem seems to think that his scenario is a good thing. 

I don't recall implying that this scenario was a good thing.

[Ansem]

26 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

It’s almost like the details of the deal we’re ignored because the goals of Canada Soccer leadership at the time were to host a couple of World Cup Games and get Vic a promotion. 
 

All in an environment where you have a generational talent moving to Bayern.  You have TFC winning MLS and going to CCL final.   
On the Women’s side you have back to back podium finishes. 
The Men’s team had just hired the most successful coach in Canadian history. 

You’d have to be Warner level corrupt or unfit to run a business to be signing away the games future (for $3mil a year?) at that point. 

Your threshold for success is low.

The points you made hardly demonstrated that soccer in Canada was doing great overall. Why are you leaving out Montreal going to CCL finals? Also, this was at a time where Canadians barely saw the pitch.

20 years is excessive - but status quo wasn't any better

[Ansem]

7 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Potentially 15 years of the CSB paying a flat rate with no chance for renegotiation or competitors should make all of us nervous. 

Looking at the success of the CanMNT team now - this is way too low, I agree with that.

[Ivan]

5 hours ago, Joe Keeper said:

I think we are very crucially missing a much larger context of the events tonight;  events that will now cast an increasingly longer light back in time on the implications of the deal between the CSA and CSB and what it really means. 

This is not as simple as a player protest over world cup bonuses as we so often hear about in the global game. It certainly is that, but, more crucially, it looks like this is an issue of what has become of the actual nature of and power of the CSA versus a for profit company. Essentially, has a traditional national governing body of soccer been (or in the process of being) replaced, by contract and in the legal world, a corporation?

This raises massive questions over what Canadian soccer is and will be for all of us; a business where the development of everything is solely dependent on the whims and goals of shareholders from the national teams down to the grass roots development, or, a formal association of local to regional to provincial soccer bodies that come together for organisation and resource sharing in the forum of a national governing body with ties to the global body. 

The former means national development is at the whims of whether or not a few groups or people can make a profit off of kids kicking a ball with a youth program up to the national team's playing options. Think about that... 

Or, the later, is Canadian soccer development the right and responsibility of associations that are largely not for profit with decisions made that should be first about soccer planning and representative of everyone in the Canadian game.

This is now down to who owns all this association money from the bottom up and the professional money that has been or will be put in to anything Canadian football from the top down. What is "development" of Canadian soccer? How will those decisions be made? What becomes of people's rights as players and vice versa?

I don't mean to bring light to this simply for philosophical debate. This is a concrete issue that is extremely worrying. What the hell has the CSA signed themselves and us over to? The question of this "player deal" is about where the money goes, but only as an example that plays into the larger implications I've raised. 

To put it more bluntly, if the bulk of world cup money (being only the current example) goes to the people with a monetary, "investment" or "speculative" share in CSB, this is more a case of profit stripping with future development of Canadian soccer being destroyed or extremely short changed financially. If the world cup revenue and  the bulk of the future money invested into our game, or more worryingly, as paid by players and parents and clubs to the CSA for organizational support is going into private hands, the world cup run and our supposed wonderful future was sold off in a bad deal a few years ago. 

 

What does CSB have their hands on? Exactly who are all the group and individuals that comprise, profit from and have power in CSB? How are "Canadian soccer assets" defined now? Where does any and all of the money go? What does development mean? How is money dolled out beyond the guaranteed 3 million annually to the CSA? What say do non CSB entities, groups (see Supporters Groups) parents, players coaches, refs and volunteers have in CSA governance and control over CSB? 

In the document linked to in the first post of this thread, the brief announcement of the deal between the CSA and CSB lists the latter as controlling the rights to everything from National teams to grassroots development. It lists (or treats) these things as "properties in a portfolio"... 

If the deal is to give national development a fixed amount or lower percentage while most of any CSA or Canadian Soccer revenue is earmarked for a limited amount of private hands as the term for original or future investment, we are in deeper trouble than anyone dreamed, especially the CanPL.

With all due respect we are not taking this seriously enough. I believe we (fans,supporters, players, consumers, Voyageurs etc) should demand to see this entire deal and have open access to these contracts under the full time span past, present and future. We need to start asking questions openly of the CSA and CSB as a group. 

This is extremely f**ked up and has been going on for too long.This deal, might make the original corruption and incompetence of the old CSA in decades past much worse. 

Nothing in this country will or ever has changed by leaving it to the folks at the top... Time to demand answers. 

I think your post asks the same question I have been pondering since this began, in one sentence. "Does the WCQ prize money actually belong to the CSB according to their contract?

 

[Meepmeep]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Your threshold for success is low.

The points you made hardly demonstrated that soccer in Canada was doing great overall. Why are you leaving out Montreal going to CCL finals? Also, this was at a time where Canadians barely saw the pitch.

20 years is excessive - but status quo wasn't any better

20 years now?  What other details of the arrangement can you share?

The point was that any business leader with a vision could see that handing over control of the organization (money is control) at that point in time for decades to a third party without input from the stakeholders or even a modicum of transparency was either corrupt or negligent.  
 

Spare me the CPL stuff.  Do you think a significant percentages of the 100k that watched the CNMT live in Edmonton. 20k in Hamilton and 30k at BMO all in freezing conditions, in addition to the millions that watched it on tv or online care about the CPL or OneSoccer?

[RJB]

The terms of deal seem tilted to CSB but it may be what was and is need for success of the CPL.  And that's ok, but the CSA can just come out and say so!  Say we stand by the deal and have nothing to hide, show us the terms of the deal that the players are so concerned about, and tell us about how it is integral to the success of soccer in this country.