Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[SpecialK]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

And 2026 is 4 years away so let’s not include it in the 10 million being discussed in the context of current funds.  

Why ? It’s very relevant because the CSB deals is finished after the 2026 correct ? Also the players agreement will probably include 2026. 

[Aird25]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

24 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

 

@Watchmen means that the CSA did not create CSB, which is correct.

Is it?

[ECW]

1 hour ago, Ally McCoist said:

Everybody who was supporting this deal in this thread will look like real idiots in no time.  

Keep supporting shit deals. I'm happy to have been anti-CSB from day 1 of this ordeal.

I pretty much agree. It’s tiring to support a NT that’s without the governing structure and personnel to succeed, but I can’t ignore almost 40 years of watching the CSA fuck up (amateur in the very worst and not the best sense of the word). 

[Watchmen]

39 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Is it?

Are you working on the basis that the CSA helped private investors create the CSB? I mean yes, that is true. Doesn't mean the CSA has an ownership stake in the CSB or that they benefit financially from the CSB beyond whatever is in the negotiated agreement. 

[king1010]

oof thats a terrible deal for the CSA. 

two points... 

1. there should have been a guaranteed base payment to the CSA AND a percent of profit sharing on sponsorship revenue so the CSA sees increased revenue as their brand improves (and CSB still gets a fair cut)

2. it sounds like the 10 year extension is unilateral and not mutual, so the CSB can extend no matter what the CSA says, even if sponsorship revenues are $50M, the CSA get $4M a year for years 11 to 20

 

 

.... brutal 

[dyslexic nam]

9 minutes ago, king1010 said:

 

2. it sounds like the 10 year extension is unilateral and not mutual, so the CSB can extend no matter what the CSA says, even if sponsorship revenues are $50M, the CSA get $4M a year for years 11 to 20

 

 

.... brutal 

I would be surprised if this part is true, or if true, enforceable.  Any contract I have seen has since revisions for termination.  This one may be a bit different because the whole intent was to secure long term investment in soccer in this country, but it would be pretty surprising to have a contract where one party could unilaterally extend it regardless of the wishes of the other party.  I have seen my fair share of agreements and I have never seen one that one-sided.  

[SF]

Without seeing the contract it's hard to know for sure what is/isn't enforceable. My best guess is that the CSB people will have entered into the arrangement with (a) more experience and (b) some degree of leverage (i.e. they were willing to take the risk and spend on CPL franchises).

If this is all true, what has happened is that the CSA has entered into a de facto subsidy arrangement for the CPL. 

We can argue the merits of such a subsidy, but that is what it seems.

What I think should have been done is some form of sliding scale and/or earn out on the assigning of the marketing rights. No different than you see in public/private transactions all the time.  But, see points (a) and (b) above and you can easily conclude the CSA lost the plot somewhere along the line. 

[narduch]

We're fucked.

 

 

[The Pessimist]

"On Jan. 1, 2019, six months after FIFA awarded the 2026 World Cup to Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, Canada Soccer and CSB signed a nine-year contract".

Everyone here is debating the CSA/CSB deal based on things as they are today. Yes, Canada did qualify for the World Cup and therefore stands to bring in big revenue for the CSB.

But back in January 2019 Canada was nowhere near qualifying for the World Cup. Qualification for the World Cup in CONCACAF still involved the HEX, and Canada was not part of the HEX. We were on the outside looking in. The HEX was not reformatted into the OCTO until July 2020, thanks to COVID. So back in 2019 our best chance of making the World Cup would have been as hosts in 2026. 

The CSB deal of $3 mil and the formation of a domestic CPL probably looked like a good idea at the time.

I do have a problem though with the CSB being able to extend the contract for another 10 years. You would think that any contract extension would be subject to agreement of both parties.

[SF]

14 minutes ago, The Pessimist said:

"On Jan. 1, 2019, six months after FIFA awarded the 2026 World Cup to Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, Canada Soccer and CSB signed a nine-year contract".

Everyone here is debating the CSA/CSB deal based on things as they are today. Yes, Canada did qualify for the World Cup and therefore stands to bring in big revenue for the CSB.

But back in January 2019 Canada was nowhere near qualifying for the World Cup. Qualification for the World Cup in CONCACAF still involved the HEX, and Canada was not part of the HEX. We were on the outside looking in. The HEX was not reformatted into the OCTO until July 2020, thanks to COVID. So back in 2019 our best chance of making the World Cup would have been as hosts in 2026. 

The CSB deal of $3 mil and the formation of a domestic CPL probably looked like a good idea at the time.

I do have a problem though with the CSB being able to extend the contract for another 10 years. You would think that any contract extension would be subject to agreement of both parties.

This is fair.  It is easy to judge in hindsight. 

[Meepmeep]

For context, and I’m not an accountant, it appears from my viewing of the 2012 financials that CSA had 5.2 million of sponsorship revenue in 2012 and 4.3 in 2013.  
 

If CSB guarantees only 3 million why do that deal?  

https://www.canadiancharitylaw.ca/uploads/Canadian_Soccer_Association_2013-12-31_Financial_Statements.PDF

Edited July 12, 2022 by Meepmeep

[Meepmeep]

7 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

For context, and I’m not an accountant, it appears from my viewing of the 2012 financials that CSA had 5.2 million of sponsorship revenue in 2012 and 4.3 in 2013.  
 

If CSB guarantees only 3 million why do that deal?  

https://www.canadiancharitylaw.ca/uploads/Canadian_Soccer_Association_2013-12-31_Financial_Statements.PDF

Like I said I might be off base in my reading but 2017 commercial revenue was 8.2 million 2016 14.3 million 

I wonder if commercial revenue includes gate receipts?  Doesn’t mention it in the notes  

 

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/4dea2f972251054a/original/uozsijkzqrikkdubqiln-pdf.pdf

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

"Player agent Courtney James, whose clients include men’s national team members Samuel Piette and Doneil Henry, said he understands the anger of national team players but says they also should accept a measure of responsibility for not taking more of an interest in the business of Canada Soccer before now."

If i am Henry or Piette I am firing this guy immediately. It's not the players job to be responsible for what goes on in Canada Soccer. If anything that is the agents job. It is the agents responsibility to take care of financial deals. Why the agent would publicly blame his client for this is beyond me.

Wrong.

First, the player agent has no negotiating role in a player's relationship with his national team. He may get some commissions, since sometimes a player's contract includes incentives or bonuses if they make a NT callup, but that is all, it is minor. For example, in many player's contracts, NT bonuses are not part of the payment package subject to commission for the agent. 

Second, the player agent cannot intervene in a negotiation involving the national team, as represented by the captains, and the national federation. Indeed, the negotiations going on between national federations/associations and players agents are not significant at all. 

What he is saying is this: where I cannot work and have no role, either legally  or de facto, you have to take it upon yourself to behave like a responsible worker who cares about the conditions of his employment. And the point is well taken: a player cannot live with his head in the sand and then be involved in boycotting an official international friendly. On the same day it was meant to be played. Which is a serious choice to make and mostly unheard of in world football. 

I find it funny that people agree that the agent is wrong and like posts saying he should be fired, when he is quite possibly offering the most mature opinion we've heard in a long while.

What gets liked and supported on this board is treating players like immature idiots and defending their right to remain so regardless of the facts or their own interest.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[grigorio]

54 minutes ago, The Pessimist said:

"On Jan. 1, 2019, six months after FIFA awarded the 2026 World Cup to Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, Canada Soccer and CSB signed a nine-year contract".

Everyone here is debating the CSA/CSB deal based on things as they are today. Yes, Canada did qualify for the World Cup and therefore stands to bring in big revenue for the CSB.

But back in January 2019 Canada was nowhere near qualifying for the World Cup. Qualification for the World Cup in CONCACAF still involved the HEX, and Canada was not part of the HEX. We were on the outside looking in. The HEX was not reformatted into the OCTO until July 2020, thanks to COVID. So back in 2019 our best chance of making the World Cup would have been as hosts in 2026. 

The CSB deal of $3 mil and the formation of a domestic CPL probably looked like a good idea at the time.

I do have a problem though with the CSB being able to extend the contract for another 10 years. You would think that any contract extension would be subject to agreement of both parties.

Bingo. There may be bad elements to the deal (lack of rev-sharing on sponsorship being a biggie), but CSB gambled BIG and the bet hit. They probably needed those low probability high benefit payouts as even feasible ideas to have made the deal in the first place. Had we not made the World Cup (which was pretty unlikely until the Octo was invented and then began), we likely wouldn't be talking about this. Had we not made the World Cup (or even the Hex/Oct), and soccer in Canada descended once again into a deep dark hole until 2026, would we be saying thank f*ck the CSB is propping up pro and national level soccer in Canada when there's absolutely zero money to be made?

We all shoulda bought Microsoft stock in the 90's but here the CSB actually did. 

Soccer in Canada needed a loan shark when no one else would come forward and it got a savvy one. 

[ted]

4 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

Yes, but you are the one re-ordering events to fit your narrative.  

No sir. You are making a false claim based on the date that CSB deal was signed, ignoring the negotiations and well-reported discussions between FIFA and CSA for literally years beforehand. The CSA talked about bids for tournaments before the one for 2026 and the understanding was that in order to be awarded a full WC tournament a domestic professional league was a requirement. In fact this has been a standard talking point in Canadian soccer since 1994.

[Stryker911]

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Wrong.

First, the player agent has no negotiating role in a player's relationship with his national team. He may get some commissions, since sometimes a player's contract includes incentives or bonuses if they make a NT callup, but that is all, it is minor. For example, in many player's contracts, NT bonuses are not part of the payment package subject to commission for the agent. 

Second, the player agent cannot intervene in a negotiation involving the national team, as represented by the captains, and the national federation. Indeed, the negotiations going on between national federations/associations and players agents is not significant at all. 

What he is saying is this: where I cannot work and have no role, either legally,  or de factor, you have to take it upon yourself to behave like a responsible worker who cares about the conditions of his employment. And the point is well taken: a player cannot live with his head in the sand and then be involved in boycotting an official international friendly. On the same day it was meant to be played. Which is a serious choice to make and mostly unheard of in world football. 

I find it funny that people agree that the agent is wrong and like posts saying he should be fired, when he is quite possibly offering the most mature opinion we've heard in a long while.

What gets liked and supported on this board is treating players like immature idiots and defending their right to remain so regardless of the facts or their own interest.

This is Henry's testimonial regarding Courtney on his agent qebsite.

“I’ve known Courtney for the better part of 10 years and, if I can describe our professional player agent relationship in one word, it would be loyal. He’s always been 100 percent transparent and responsive with everything off the pitch. As a player with more testing times in the game, I never felt that Courtney wasn’t doing his best to get me fit and in an environment where I could play and dominate. Courtney is a hardworking family man who’s committed and believes in all the players he takes on.”

This is perhaps the most important part I take out of this quote "He’s always been 100 percent transparent and responsive with everything off the pitch." If his agent is supposed to be transparent with everything off the pitch why is it now Henrys responsibly to know what kind of deal the CSA took on?

Between Henry or his agent, who should be better equipped to take a long look at it? Is he agent only supposed to help him out when he makes money off of it, or as Henry said, is 100% transparent with everything off the pitch?

Henry in his own words said above all else he is loyal. Is someone who is loyal supposed to go to the media and give direct quotes undermining Henry's knowledge of the subject? 

I stand by that if someone I was paying to help my career came out and said this, I am asking questions why he never looked into it himself, and without a good answer it is time to hire someone that would.

[Bison44]

I'll do you one better Grigorio..in a years time in a world with no CSB deal, when the WC is over and we are back to our usual schedule and the sponsors dry up inbetween WC cycles, no one gives a shit about CMNT friendlies or CONCACAF games against T+T (the f#ckin puck head hosts will go back to making fun of the national team),  and we have to go back to paying TSN to put games on TV.   

At it isnt a surprise to me that the TSN reporter doesnt put much value in creating a domestic league, when the parent company barely even mentions it at all. 

[SpecialK]

Creating a Domestic league is important and Canada needed one. No question. But the CSA got raped. Victor needed a league for the world 2026, Reed and little Nicky sold away everything and now that the men and women’s are making money the CSA gets 3 million dollars. It was a horrible deal plan and simple. TV rights is one thing , sponsorship is another and the CSA sold both off. 

[DeRo_Is_King]

35 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

Henry in his own words said above all else he is loyal. Is someone who is loyal supposed to go to the media and give direct quotes undermining Henry's knowledge of the subject? 

This is key. If the agent actually said  the players weren't interested in the business side until now, that paints them as immature idiots and is unacceptable. I didn't agree with the no-show vs Panama, but who knows what went on behind the scenes before that strike action. 

[Cheeta]

45 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

This is Henry's testimonial regarding Courtney on his agent qebsite.

“I’ve known Courtney for the better part of 10 years and, if I can describe our professional player agent relationship in one word, it would be loyal. He’s always been 100 percent transparent and responsive with everything off the pitch. As a player with more testing times in the game, I never felt that Courtney wasn’t doing his best to get me fit and in an environment where I could play and dominate. Courtney is a hardworking family man who’s committed and believes in all the players he takes on.”

This is perhaps the most important part I take out of this quote "He’s always been 100 percent transparent and responsive with everything off the pitch." If his agent is supposed to be transparent with everything off the pitch why is it now Henrys responsibly to know what kind of deal the CSA took on?

Between Henry or his agent, who should be better equipped to take a long look at it? Is he agent only supposed to help him out when he makes money off of it, or as Henry said, is 100% transparent with everything off the pitch?

Henry in his own words said above all else he is loyal. Is someone who is loyal supposed to go to the media and give direct quotes undermining Henry's knowledge of the subject? 

I stand by that if someone I was paying to help my career came out and said this, I am asking questions why he never looked into it himself, and without a good answer it is time to hire someone that would.

Score.

Clap-clap-clap.

[red card]

1 hour ago, Meepmeep said:

Like I said I might be off base in my reading but 2017 commercial revenue was 8.2 million 2016 14.3 million 

I wonder if commercial revenue includes gate receipts?  Doesn’t mention it in the notes  

 

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/4dea2f972251054a/original/uozsijkzqrikkdubqiln-pdf.pdf

 

 

The notes to the financials say commercial revenue includes goods & services received like equipment, hosting services, transportation, federal services & team supplies. And government covid payments in more recent years. 

It also says changes in revenue were largely due to sponsorship & international tv rights (hasn't been stated if CSB gets a cut of this also).

There was also a bump in commercial revenue due to hosting WWC15. CSA had tier 1 sponsors like Bell & BMO who let their deals expire post 2015.

So, CSA was facing a barren cupboard till 2026. Assuming qualifying for 2022 would be rolling a dice and not a prudent forecast for a non-profit sport org. They also promised a FIFA a domestic league for hosting 2026 - otherwise, FIFA could have pulled the Canada-based matches and there goes most of the World Cup sponsorship bump.

 

 

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, The Pessimist said:

"On Jan. 1, 2019, six months after FIFA awarded the 2026 World Cup to Canada, the U.S. and Mexico, Canada Soccer and CSB signed a nine-year contract".

Everyone here is debating the CSA/CSB deal based on things as they are today. Yes, Canada did qualify for the World Cup and therefore stands to bring in big revenue for the CSB.

But back in January 2019 Canada was nowhere near qualifying for the World Cup. Qualification for the World Cup in CONCACAF still involved the HEX, and Canada was not part of the HEX. We were on the outside looking in. The HEX was not reformatted into the OCTO until July 2020, thanks to COVID. So back in 2019 our best chance of making the World Cup would have been as hosts in 2026. 

The CSB deal of $3 mil and the formation of a domestic CPL probably looked like a good idea at the time.

I do have a problem though with the CSB being able to extend the contract for another 10 years. You would think that any contract extension would be subject to agreement of both parties.

 

1 hour ago, grigorio said:

Bingo. There may be bad elements to the deal (lack of rev-sharing on sponsorship being a biggie), but CSB gambled BIG and the bet hit. They probably needed those low probability high benefit payouts as even feasible ideas to have made the deal in the first place. Had we not made the World Cup (which was pretty unlikely until the Octo was invented and then began), we likely wouldn't be talking about this. Had we not made the World Cup (or even the Hex/Oct), and soccer in Canada descended once again into a deep dark hole until 2026, would we be saying thank f*ck the CSB is propping up pro and national level soccer in Canada when there's absolutely zero money to be made?

We all shoulda bought Microsoft stock in the 90's but here the CSB actually did. 

Soccer in Canada needed a loan shark when no one else would come forward and it got a savvy one. 

 

52 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I'll do you one better Grigorio..in a years time in a world with no CSB deal, when the WC is over and we are back to our usual schedule and the sponsors dry up inbetween WC cycles, no one gives a shit about CMNT friendlies or CONCACAF games against T+T (the f#ckin puck head hosts will go back to making fun of the national team),  and we have to go back to paying TSN to put games on TV.   

At it isnt a surprise to me that the TSN reporter doesnt put much value in creating a domestic league, when the parent company barely even mentions it at all. 

Except were not dealing with a "with the benefit of hindsight" situation anymore.  The CSA board *knew* they had something special coming along:

“The most ridiculous part of all of this is the timing,” said a Canada Soccer executive who requested anonymity because they didn’t have permission to speak publicly about the federation.

“In the summer of 2018, Canada Soccer knew it would host the 2026 World Cup and knew there would be so many Canadian and international companies wanting to do huge sponsorship deals with the federation. And we also knew by then that we had a pipeline of great young talent coming up. By the fall of 2018, Alphonso Davies was already playing with Bayern Munich and Jonathan David was in Belgium. So, with all of that promise of long-term money and talent on the horizon, why would Canada Soccer do a deal that locks us in for 20 years? It has destroyed morale in the federation.”

 

The CSA board knew that the CSB deal being presented to them was a bad deal. That's not to say they don't sign something with the CSB.  They just knew the deal as is was bad and they weren't being provided with key details  And Bontis, without the approval of the board (allegedly, since the key meeting notes went "missing") signed off on it anyway. 

Five current and former board members said that the CSB deal was not properly approved by Canada Soccer’s board. The board members said the agreement was only approved subject to the board being provided with details about CSB’s finances and ensuring that Canada Soccer had representation on CSB’s board. Those conditions were not met, the board members said.

[TOcanadafan]

50 minutes ago, ted said:

No sir. You are making a false claim based on the date that CSB deal was signed, ignoring the negotiations and well-reported discussions between FIFA and CSA for literally years beforehand. The CSA talked about bids for tournaments before the one for 2026 and the understanding was that in order to be awarded a full WC tournament a domestic professional league was a requirement. In fact this has been a standard talking point in Canadian soccer since 1994.

A deal is not done until it is signed, so I did not make any false claims.  You made the original claim that without the current CBS deal, then no World Cup, which is false. Let me refresh your memory:

“Without the CSB deal which created and supports the CanPL, we would not be co-hosting WC 2026.”

I get the point you are making that the bid needed to include plans for a domestic league that would have some sort of partnership with the CSA, but it did not have to lead to this specific deal which a lot of people are upset about. Yes, it’s a hypothetical on my part, but I believe a FAIR deal could have been reached that didn’t screw the CSA, but still help the CPL get off the ground. 

 

[grigorio]

33 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

 

 

Except were not dealing with a "with the benefit of hindsight" situation anymore.  The CSA board *knew* they had something special coming along:

“The most ridiculous part of all of this is the timing,” said a Canada Soccer executive who requested anonymity because they didn’t have permission to speak publicly about the federation.

“In the summer of 2018, Canada Soccer knew it would host the 2026 World Cup and knew there would be so many Canadian and international companies wanting to do huge sponsorship deals with the federation. And we also knew by then that we had a pipeline of great young talent coming up. By the fall of 2018, Alphonso Davies was already playing with Bayern Munich and Jonathan David was in Belgium. So, with all of that promise of long-term money and talent on the horizon, why would Canada Soccer do a deal that locks us in for 20 years? It has destroyed morale in the federation.”

I get this line of thinking but I don’t really buy it. We have shat the bed after having our hopes up countless times before. Most of us also thought Herdman was crazy and hell he himself probably thought the same when he started talking WC 2022 as a possibility and we knew about a Phonzie and David at the time.  
 

To think that two players would change the course of this program’s history in such a dramatic way is a stretch. In fact, in the end it probably wasn’t even because of these players but Herdman himself and NO ONE predicted his success in getting CanMNT to where they are now. 
 

It’s like for the very first time ever our optimism actually panned out and we instantly forgot about the 1000 times we were heartbroken just before it. 

[ag futbol]

45 minutes ago, grigorio said:

I get this line of thinking but I don’t really buy it. We have shat the bed after having our hopes up countless times before. Most of us also thought Herdman was crazy and hell he himself probably thought the same when he started talking WC 2022 as a possibility and we knew about a Phonzie and David at the time.  
 

To think that two players would change the course of this program’s history in such a dramatic way is a stretch. In fact, in the end it probably wasn’t even because of these players but Herdman himself and NO ONE predicted his success in getting CanMNT to where they are now. 
 

It’s like for the very first time ever our optimism actually panned out and we instantly forgot about the 1000 times we were heartbroken just before it. 

I can understand this. 2022 no certainty, however, there was upside for the reasons listed. And 2026 was an absolute certainty. And everyone has seen the general growth of the game in NA, the increase in MLS’s success and the rise in franchise values. 

You add up all the factors and at the time it was a sweetheart deal for the next 10 years.

Throw in the renewal option to bring the contract term to 20 years in total? With zero escalation in the amount paid? Exercisable entirely at the option of CSB? 

What was their inspiration for that? Churchill Falls??

It’s very hard (I would say practically impossible) to believe this was done in the best interest of the sport in this country. And I say this as someone who analyzes financials and pores over legal contracts for a living… 

Edited July 13, 2022 by ag futbol