Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, prairiecanuck said:

People are entirely worried about the extension part of this deal.  Let's examine that for a second.  In order for an extension to happen Media pro would have to also extend their portion of the deal.  The recent issues between the CSB and mediapro would suggest the subscriptions are not at the level that would justify and extension.  The CPL has 5 years to grow gate revenues and interest to grow subscriptions or there will be no extension from mediapro and people could be worrying about nothing.

Rumour is MediaPro will be out after this year.

You can't even get a yearly subscription anymore. They only offer monthly now.

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

Rumour is MediaPro will be out after this year.

You can't even get a yearly subscription anymore. They only offer monthly now.

Given what happened during the initial explosion, it wouldn’t be crazy to think they would come to an agreement to sunset the arrangement in a more stable fashion (with an agreement to then limit or forgo any liability going forward) in an effort to allow the league and stakeholders to make alternate broadcasting arrangements.   

[prairiecanuck]

9 minutes ago, narduch said:

Rumour is MediaPro will be out after this year.

You can't even get a yearly subscription anymore. They only offer monthly now.

so we're complaining about nothing.  The CSB deal could be gone in no time..lol

[narduch]

Just now, prairiecanuck said:

so we're complaining about nothing.  The CSB deal could be gone in no time..lol

I think the CSB deal will survive. 

My own prediction is CSB will take over One Soccer as part of the settlement. It will also be settled out of court later this year. They are just hammering out the details now.

[TOcanadafan]

31 minutes ago, narduch said:

The thing is when MLS changed the roster rules to allow Americans to count as domestics, the original promise of what TFC was supposed to be was broken.

This peeks my interest to find out more about how things along this line transpired - what was the 'original promise'?  Perhaps things could have been more favourable to the Canadian MLS teams, but in some ways I think we're lucky with status quo.  MLS / US soccer could have entirely cut Canada off... the NFL is the most financially successful sports league on the planet and don't see adding Toronto as a positive.

On another note... just wondering, how much did that new Mexican 'Game Plan Sports' outfit pay to purchase York United FC?  I couldn't find a $ number anywhere... does anyone have a ballpark figure?

[gator]

1 hour ago, prairiecanuck said:

  

Bob isn't the soccer guy.  He's a billionaire trying to do good things for the city of Hamilton.  In getting the stadium built councilors did want the facility used for more than just football.  Yes, Bob explore the MLS first because he actually has the money to pay the expansion fees but the MLS turned him down.  The other US leagues made no sense economically.

 

.

I agree with most of this post, I would just like to expand on part of it, Bob Young is an ardent soccer supporter, he owned a team in Carolina in the USL previous to the CPL and in fact before the CPL was announced the inside scoop we were getting pointed to Hamilton acquiring a franchise in that league! Whenever I have spoken to Bob he comes across as big fan of the sport like many of the supporters I share a pre match beer with around the barrel at THF, I honestly believe he is more of a soccer fan than CFL although obviously he has more money tied up with the Ticats! As for Tim Horton Field, the biggest debate was the location of the field and not the purposing of it, he was for whatever reason dead set against the West Harbour proposal which to this day I don't understand and I think city council dropped the ball by not building the stadium there! As far as I know the field was to be multi purpose with a track that thankfully got scrapped when the city argued about the cost and the PanAm track events were moved with the result the stands are that much closer to the pitch!

Edited February 25 by gator

[prairiecanuck]

19 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Did that come up somewhere? Like when FIFA was visiting Vancouver?

It is a really hard sell to argue that Italian Vancouverites from East Van or Burnaby had historical animosity against the Whitecaps, when pretty well the entire fanbase adored the Italian connection from day one at the club, built around the Lenarduzzi family and other key people from the community; some of the same people that win NASL and then USL championships with the Caps, and bring us into MLS. Then, recently, in the last 5-10 years, there are disengagements, mostly because of performance. But often it is the exact opposite of what he implies: if anything, what saved things were the academies and how we were still growing players. 

Let's not ignore that Canada is playing 2 home World Cup games at the Caps venue, as if having a FIFA VP from East Van had nothing to do with that.

Fair enough.  He's obviously more of a soccer guy than I realized.  Point taken.

[prairiecanuck]

27 minutes ago, gator said:

I agree with most of this post, I would just like to expand on part of it, Bob Young is an ardent soccer supporter, he owned a team in Carolina in the USL previous to the CPL and in fact before the CPL was announced the inside scoop we were getting pointed to Hamilton acquiring a franchise in that league! Whenever I have spoken to Bob he comes across as big fan of the sport like many of the supporters I share a pre match beer with around the barrel at THF, I honestly believe he is more of a soccer fan than CFL although obviously he has more money tied up with the Ticats! As for Tim Horton Field, the biggest debate was the location of the field and not the purposing of it, he was for whatever reason dead set against the West Harbour proposal which to this day I don't understand and I think city council dropped the ball by not building the stadium there! As far as I know the field was to be multi purpose with a track that thankfully got scrapped when the city argued about the cost and the PanAm track events were moved with the result the stands are that much closer to the pitch!

I mean to respond to you Gator..lol.  Point taken.  I didn't realize Bob was as big a soccer supporter. It makes sense though.  Thanks for clarifying.

[narduch]

57 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

This peeks my interest to find out more about how things along this line transpired - what was the 'original promise'?  Perhaps things could have been more favourable to the Canadian MLS teams, but in some ways I think we're lucky with status quo.  MLS / US soccer could have entirely cut Canada off... the NFL is the most financially successful sports league on the planet and don't see adding Toronto as a positive.

On another note... just wondering, how much did that new Mexican 'Game Plan Sports' outfit pay to purchase York United FC?  I couldn't find a $ number anywhere... does anyone have a ballpark figure?

If I have more time I will go dig out some old threads.

If you are bored, you can go to the MLS sub forum on here and go to the very end. Should be multiple threads on this.

Should be noted back then I was totally in favour of MLS in Toronto. There were many detractors from outside Toronto. 

As an aside, I often wonder in hindsight if MLS regrets giving Vancouver and Montreal franchises. They are 2 of the lowest valued franchises. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

A point to be made about the MLS rules regarding Canadians in the US: if you want reciprocity you have to negotiate it. There is no reason why this could not take place, for example: if I were president of the CSA I would put it on the table immediately. If MLS want to continue to have US players count as domestics on Canadian MLS teams, there must be same for same reciprocity for Canadians in the US. 

It exists in USL leagues, so there is even precedent.

I have no doubt that MLS, and USSoccer as the voice for the American soccer cause, would not oppose this. It is mostly a question of proposing, making the rational case, and pressing for the accord.

Think I heard that based on what the CSA had accepted or not, visas / work permits for US players were made available. That basically the federal government accepts the terms because the CSA made the case for them.

We heard years back, as Canadian teams were entering MLS, that restricting access to Americans would hurt Canadian teams, as because the Canadian pool had no depth, we needed US players to fill our rosters. It was not true, but it was bought by the Canadian teams. In fact, it does not hurt Canadian MLS teams to have Canadian players discriminated in the US, because it gives them priority options on them. There is no reason for the Canadian MLS teams to care in the least about the rule, it does not discriminate them. 

So the problem can't be solved through the MLS clubs in Canada. It has to be the CSA putting it forward. It has to be the CSA showing leadership and saying, hey MLS, USSF, this does not work, we are not happy with our players not having access to this labour market. And if that means rocking a boat the Caps, TFC and Montreal don't want to rock, well too bad. This is a rule that the USSF drove forward, as part of the vision of MLS, in fact I think if the US Federation had not insisted in its day, MLS would not have really cared.

In my years studying history when in Canada, I had colleagues doing graduate work on US-Canadian relations, and I recall one person who was studying how Canadian politicians had consistently sold Canada short on trade in the mid 20th C, thinking and acting out of fear factor, out of perceived weakness, when all evidence amongst US legislators proved there was no real animosity towards Canadian interests in the US. She even told me that she got push-back from Canadian profs, arguing she should be careful about studying such a thing and making such an argument, the mentality had invaded Canadian politics and Canadian academia.

Simply put, her MA argued how Canada consistently sold itself short or simply cowered in trade negotiations (this was pre-NAFTA) and did so unnecessarily, based on what allies of Canada in the US congress or state legislators said and did. I thought of this as it is a case with the parallel theme of negotiating reciprocity, if you want something here, you have to give it to us there. And the US has normally agreed when we've made the case insistently. 

Only that the case for Canadians in MLS has never been made because the only organization that could make has not dared. 

Edited February 25 by Unnamed Trialist

[Dominic94]

As someone who followed TFC in 2007.

 

They incorrectly assumed that the Canadian player pool was deep enough to fill the quotas. At that point in time it was was not, and the players they had just weren’t up to par. They had no choice, yes in the starting 11 there was a few guys who could play at the MLS level, but not nearly enough.

[Bison44]

5 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

So explain to us how a domestic league in Canada works without flying? Since apparently the league is bankrupting themselves to fly players, in spite of having a sponsorship deal with westjet. 

Thats the whole point.  When he says bus league, he means a GTA, urban 401 corridor with some Quebec teams.  Ie L1O which already exists but lets ignore that for now.  But thats his idea of a domestic league, thats as far as his vision goes.  No matter how hard he likes to pump Halifax, his bus league wouldnt have Halifax, any prairie team, no calgary or BC.  F#ck the rest of the country eh??  He makes it sound like CPL are choosing some high class league, when flying and having teams spread out around the country are the only options for a truly national domestic league.  Sorry, but either you try and make that work (low salaries etc) or you just have the L1 regional D-3 or D-4 quality leagues we currently have.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

9 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Thats the whole point.  When he says bus league, he means a GTA, urban 401 corridor with some Quebec teams.  Ie L1O which already exists but lets ignore that for now...

^^^again with the outright lies and distortions. This poster and others know perfectly well that the analogy I have made dozens of times on here is with the ECHL in hockey:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHL

 

[Bison44]

ECHL......HAHA a farm club league????   Must have caught you in a weak moment, you told the truth.  Come out and say it you coward.  You want the CPL to be a bus riding farm club league.  And your pissed 24/7 that they didnt listen to you and go down that road.  You think we are distorting things....anyone who has listened to you for the last 10 years knows thats what you have been saying.  Hmmm, let me guess your response.

^^^ What drivel, I usually ignore this guy (except obviously I'm dont) and now I have to show phoney outrage.  BOO stomping feet, childish tantrum.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

[narduch]

3 hours ago, Bison44 said:

ECHL......HAHA a farm club league????   Must have caught you in a weak moment, you told the truth.  Come out and say it you coward.  You want the CPL to be a bus riding farm club league.  And your pissed 24/7 that they didnt listen to you and go down that road.  You think we are distorting things....anyone who has listened to you for the last 10 years knows thats what you have been saying.  Hmmm, let me guess your response.

^^^ What drivel, I usually ignore this guy (except obviously I'm dont) and now I have to show phoney outrage.  BOO stomping feet, childish tantrum.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

The ECHL is such a bad analogy. 

The reason that league works is because teams play 3 games in 3 nights on weekends. 

You can't do that in soccer.

[Soro17]

6 hours ago, narduch said:

The ECHL is such a bad analogy. 

The reason that league works is because teams play 3 games in 3 nights on weekends. 

You can't do that in soccer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_ECHL_teams

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Soro17 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_ECHL_teams

They currently have a team in Newfoundland.

Those bus rides must be epic

[Aird25]

7 minutes ago, Soro17 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_ECHL_teams

Tip top blueprint

[narduch]

Had no idea Brampton had a team in that league

[Ruud]

On 2/24/2024 at 3:48 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^ignoring the preceding drivel.

Pretty sure you will find that CSB did not pay the full $3.5 million during the pandemic years. Have seen it pointed out that this was the CSA's missed opportunity to void the deal and get out of the unfavourable 10+10 fixed annual fee terms.

Would have to have a close look at the contract to see if this holds 

[Watchmen]

On 2/25/2024 at 8:19 AM, narduch said:

As an aside, I often wonder in hindsight if MLS regrets giving Vancouver and Montreal franchises. They are 2 of the lowest valued franchises. 

No. Montreal and Vancouver (along with Toronto, Seattle and Portland)  is the era that finally established a blueprint on how the league could be successful: downtown stadiums with great fans and rivalries. Without Vancouver and Montreal, I don't think you get to the $500m expansion fees you're at today.

[Watchmen]

44 minutes ago, Ruud said:

Would have to have a close look at the contract to see if this holds 

The CSA did confirm that they had not received the full payment during the first year of COVID, but that they had opted not to pursue it further. So the opportunity to re-open any negotiation based on that has likely passed.

[red card]

From self-described legal beagle who got a hard copy of the claim and read it and then put out a X thread.

Statement says CPSA informed Canada Soccer on December 19th that they wouldn't authorise NIL usage as of Feb 1st. Though, there are only a couple of sponsors that use players NIL and I have still seen their ads during the W Gold Cup.

Statement also says broadcasting national team matches was historically a cost rather than a revenue source for Canada Soccer. But the rights always had the potential to become a source of revenue. 

I can see a bit of money out there for Canada Soccer rights but not enough to move the funding needle after taking paying for production and paying tier 1 countries for friendlies. At the height of interest for the men's team during the last round of WCQs, network tv money was only there to offset some of the production costs. This level of competition won't happen again given the expanded World Cup. For the women, there has been less interest as only 1 match was shown due to sponsors monies. CBC did show WC/Olympic qualifiers delayed/live but these rights were bought by OneSoccer from Concacaf.

Otherwise the poster states: There's nothing else in the Statement of Claim that we don't know already. Now we sit and wait to see what respondents/defendants do. 

 

Edited February 26 by red card

[Aird25]

Ah yes, the old cost theoretically could have been turned into revenue $40 million lawsuit.

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, red card said:

From self-described legal beagle who got a hard copy of the claim and read it and then put out a X thread.

Statement says CPSA informed Canada Soccer on December 19th that they wouldn't authorise NIL usage as of Feb 1st. Though, there are only a couple of sponsors that use players NIL and I have still seen their ads during the W Gold Cup.

Statement also says broadcasting national team matches was historically a cost rather than a revenue source for Canada Soccer. But the rights always had the potential to become a source of revenue. 

I can see a bit of money out there for Canada Soccer rights but not enough to move the funding needle after taking paying for production and paying tier 1 countries for friendlies. At the height of interest for the men's team during the last round of WCQs, network tv money was only there to offset some of the production costs. This level of competition won't happen again given the expanded World Cup. For the women, there has been less interest as only 1 match was shown due to sponsors monies. CBC did show WC/Olympic qualifiers delayed/live but these rights were bought by OneSoccer from Concacaf.

Otherwise the poster states: There's nothing else in the Statement of Claim that we don't know already. Now we sit and wait to see what respondents/defendants do. 

 

That was painful to read... "Feels before real"