Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Did that come up somewhere? Like when FIFA was visiting Vancouver?

Infantino said this on the 2026 World Cup city schedule event.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^ignoring the preceding drivel.

4 hours ago, costarg said:

I think there is a middle ground.  I understand both sides.  However I can't agree with a few things:

- Covid happened so we should be happy CSA did the deal and got money from CSB....

Pretty sure you will find that CSB did not pay the full $3.5 million during the pandemic years. Have seen it pointed out that this was the CSA's missed opportunity to void the deal and get out of the unfavourable 10+10 fixed annual fee terms.

[narduch]

19 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^ignoring the preceding drivel.

Pretty sure you will find that CSB did not pay the full $3.5 million during the pandemic years. Have seen it pointed out that this was the CSA's missed opportunity to void the deal and get out of the unfavourable 10+10 fixed annual fee terms.

Your stance is that they should have broken the deal after only 1 year?

Do you even think about what you write?

[Ed_S]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

Infantino said this on the 2026 World Cup city schedule event.

I had a laugh over that, not as hard a laugh as over Kevin Hart educating 'Johnny' on how to pronounce Toron(t)o. Wading into this, I just can't understand who is driving tihs lawsuit and to what end. 

Edited February 24 by Ed_S

[Aird25]

On 2/24/2024 at 4:06 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It doesn't get much more complicated than the following. Victor Montagliani and many people within the CSA bubble had seen their role in elite youth coaching evaporate with the emergence of the three MLS academies were desperate for a domestic men's D1 pro league because they had a serious hatred of MLS for a variety of reasons. So desperate that Bob Young & Co were able to persuade them to hand over control of 20 years worth of national team related revenues on frankly ludicrous flat rate rather than percentage terms.

In contrast, most soccer fans and grassroots-level participants in Canada have no huge issue with MLS being the flagship competition for pro soccer in Canada, so interest in teams like York United and Vancouver FC set up as a direct rival to an existing MLS team has been marginal at best. It should have been blindingly obvious that the CWNT players were always going to have a major problem with the lack of gender equity involved with the CSB/CanPL project and were inevitably going to kick up a huge fuss at some point. The CMNT players were always going to view extra income in a World Cup finals participation year as something that should be coming primarily in their direction rather than CSB's so that also was a ticking time bomb.

Beyond the national team player protests, Mediapro wants out even before 2026 after drawing peak viewerships for CanPL games in low four figures. The three MLS franchises are still investing in youth player development at a level that massively eclipses anything the CanPL investors are doing, and the relevance of CanPL to the CMNT roster is so marginal at this point that there is no clear rationale for why any CMNT generated revenue should ever flow in that direction. A women's pro league is being set up in opposition to CSB rather than with its help and support. This is heading nowhere positive.

The CSA is structured in such a way that a highly unrepresentative clique of soccer apparatchiks who have the time on their hands to clamber up the greasy pole from the district and provincial associations was able to push an agenda with little or no oversight from other key stakeholders that most soccer people in Canada would likely not have supported if they had been given any kind of say. The strategy that has been pursued has failed spectacularly to achieve what it was supposed to and has now created a completely toxic mess.

It's time for the CSB investors to do the decent thing and admit this hasn't worked and open the way for the structure of domestic Canadian pro soccer to be renegotiated in a manner that gives all the key stakeholders, including the CWMT and CMNT players and the three MLS franchises, an equitable say in the outcome. Sadly, I suspect there is zero chance of that happening and there is a very real danger that Canadian soccer is going to continue to be completely dysfunctional for many years to come.

That's why I personally think it's understandable that the CWNT players went for the thermonuclear option at this point where the legal action they are pursuing is concerned. The only mysterious angle on that is who is backstopping what they are doing financially because I seriously doubt that they are paying all the legal costs by themselves.

I understand my bias. We finally have a professional team on Vancouver island and opportunities now exist for my kids that didn't when I needed them as a player. I totally get that I'm influenced by this, I want it to continue and this probably sways my judgment.

But I've watched you volunteer a significant amount of your time, every single day for years, towards undercutting CPL. I don't understand your end goal 

Edited February 25 by Aird25

[An Observer]

38 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I understand my bias. We finally have a professional team on Vancouver island and opportunities now exist for my kids that didn't exist when I needed them as a player. I totally get that I'm influenced by this, I want that to continue and this probably sways my judgment.

But I've watched you volunteer a significant amount of your time, every single day for years, towards undercutting CPL. I don't understand your end goal 

Maybe he owns shares in Greyhound.

[DoyleG]

37 minutes ago, An Observer said:

Maybe he owns shares in Greyhound.

Shares in a service that no longer operates in Western Canada.

That should be enough.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

9 hours ago, narduch said:

Your stance is that they should have broken the deal after only 1 year?

Do you even think about what you write?

^^^completely nonsensical. Firstly, in that anyone with basic English language comprehension skills should have picked up that it was other people who have pointed this out rather than me and secondly because anyone possessing even an average IQ should have been able to figure out by now that my stance is that the deal should never have been signed in the first place. 

[kacbru]

But if the deal was never signed in the first place, it is unlikely that all of the games would have been broadcast, or that all of the highlights would have been free for everyone to see online.  If the highlights weren't online, how would we be able to count the fans in the stands and be able to educate people on the difference between announced and paid attendance, or prove that the league is failing or that they should be travelling by bus?  Why would you want to squeeze out all of those fun parts of the last 5 seasons?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, DoyleG said:

Shares in a service that no longer operates in Western Canada.

That should be enough.

All this drivel is in reponse to having pointed out that bus travel is how major junior hockey in Canada and minor hockey and baseball leagues across North America have sustained themselves for decades on crowds similar to what CanPL is drawing, but hey let's nearly bankrupt the CSA for up to twenty years and create a completely toxic relationship with the CWNT and CMNT players so rosters of mediocre pro level players who are unlikely to ever be much of a factor in CMNT selection terms can fly regularly from Halifax to Victoria. That's more important than our national team programs being able to hold training camps etc.

[Bison44]

I thought he had everyone on ignore??  Also, I've never heard someone use the word drivel so much.  HIs xd (expected drivel) analytics are off the scale.

[CanadaFan123]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

All this drivel is in reponse to having pointed out that bus travel is how major junior hockey in Canada and minor hockey and baseball leagues across North America have sustained themselves for decades on crowds similar to what CanPL is drawing, but hey let's nearly bankrupt the CSA for up to twenty years and create a completely toxic relationship with the CWNT and CMNT players so rosters of mediocre pro level players who are unlikely to ever be much of a factor in CMNT selection terms can fly regularly from Halifax to Victoria. That's more important than our national team programs being able to hold training camps etc.

Somehow I feel like you didn’t share these same complaints when TFC came in 2007. why is that? Talk about “mediocre pro level players”. “ Every team in CPL would level TFC’s 2007 team.

Things, like MLS, take time to grow. We already had 3 CPL alumni on our 2022 World Cup team and 2023 gold cup squad so to say players are unlikely to be much of a factor just proves your bias. In 10 years it’s much more likely that half our squad will have been with a CPL team at some point. 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Somehow I feel like you didn’t share these same complaints when TFC came in 2007. why is that? ...

What on earth? He doesn't know, but he just feels like it. These guys are fixated with this MLS vs CanPL angle even when the point they are trying to make is completely irrational and based on visceral level emotion. In 2007, TFC had Brennan, Pozniak, Braz, Stamatopolous and Sutton, who all had 10+ caps for the CMNT over the course of their career, plus Reda, Canizalez, Hemming and Monsalve, who were bit part players for the CMNT at certain points. There's no sensible comparison between that and CanPL rosters in the present day nor is there a sensible comparison between the significance of what a career in MLS could do for a CMNT-level talent back then compared to what being stuck in CanPL means for the national team aspirations of somebody like Kyle Becker in the present day.

The problem back in 2007 was that other than Brennan and maybe at a push Sutton, none of these guys could really hack it in MLS, so roster requirements had to be adjusted to allow TFC to be more competitive. That rule change angle, plus the emergence of the MLS academies and what it did to the relevance of provincial association-run NTCs, started the major backlash against MLS and participation in USSF-sanctioned leagues inside the CSA bubble. When in doubt, blame it all on the Scottish guy at TFC rather than the failings of Canada's pre-existing elite youth player development system having been exposed for all to see at that point and push for a domestic D1 where we can make sure there are plenty of jobs for the boys where the CSA coaching fraternity is concerned.

Who needs games against players like Beckham and Messi to drive spectator interest in domestic pro soccer anyway when you can have Cyrus Rollocks leading the line for York 9 and you can use CMNT and CWNT revenues to subsidize it all for 20 years because that's the way we want it regardless of what the fans prefer...

Edited February 25 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[CanadaFan123]

 

21 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Who needs games against players like Beckham and Messi to drive spectator interest in domestic pro soccer anyway when you can have Cyrus Rollocks leading the line for York 9 and you can use CMNT and CWNT revenues to subsidise it all for 20 years because that's the way we want it regardless of what the fans prefer...

Yes, the fans were crying out for a bus league. Making a point about Rollocks playing for York9 is like me making a point about Goldthwaite at TFC. Playing 2 games against Messi/Beckham a season is still happening for fair weather fans. It was never a trade off.
 

I know the growing domestic league we have really irks you but you don’t really have a point in all this. You offer no solutions and we can all be grateful that someone like you isn’t influential and stands alone on every issue. 

. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^non-sequitur after non-sequitur. Either too stupid to understand that I view a bus league as the way ahead only for pragmatic reasons related to interest level and not because I think it's the better format, or deliberately distorting what I have posted. Either way not worth responding to further. For the avoidance of doubt, where other people are concerned, I have no problem whatsoever with the concept of a domestic league, but it has to actually work. Anyone who suggests otherwise is lying and is probably doing so knowingly.

Edited February 25 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

^^^everyone that's taken the 5 day, 6000 km bus trip from Halifax to Victoria knows just how pragmatic an option it is 

[dyslexic nam]

It’s funny - for a guy who harps on about the need for civility, he sure does try to take a lot of snarky little jabs.  

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What on earth? He doesn't know, but he just feels like it. These guys are fixated with this MLS vs CanPL angle even when the point they are trying to make is completely irrational and based on visceral level emotion. In 2007, TFC had Brennan, Pozniak, Braz, Stamatopolous and Sutton, who all had 10+ caps for the CMNT over the course of their career, plus Reda, Canizalez, Hemming and Monsalve, who were bit part players for the CMNT at certain points. There's no sensible comparison between that and CanPL rosters in the present day nor is there a sensible comparison between the significance of what a career in MLS could do for a CMNT-level talent back then compared to what being stuck in CanPL means for the national team aspirations of somebody like Kyle Becker in the present day.

The problem back in 2007 was that other than Brennan and maybe at a push Sutton, none of these guys could really hack it in MLS, so roster requirements had to be adjusted to allow TFC to be more competitive. That rule change angle, plus the emergence of the MLS academies and what it did to the relevance of provincial association-run NTCs, started the major backlash against MLS and participation in USSF-sanctioned leagues inside the CSA bubble. When in doubt, blame it all on the Scottish guy at TFC rather than the failings of Canada's pre-existing elite youth player development system having been exposed for all to see at that point and push for a domestic D1 where we can make sure there are plenty of jobs for the boys where the CSA coaching fraternity is concerned.

Who needs games against players like Beckham and Messi to drive spectator interest in domestic pro soccer anyway when you can have Cyrus Rollocks leading the line for York 9 and you can use CMNT and CWNT revenues to subsidise it all for 20 years because that's the way we want it regardless of what the fans prefer...

The thing is when MLS changed the roster rules to allow Americans to count as domestics, the original promise of what TFC was supposed to be was broken. Nice try to defend Mo Johnston. I needed a good laugh. 

It is a ironic that you rail against CPL not producing CanMNT players but you are perfectly OK with MLS' discriminatory roster rules.

The impetus for CPL was the 3 MLS clubs not doing enough (among other things).

I think its pretty obvious at this point that deep down you are a club over country guy. The club being TFC and because of that you are defensive about MLS in general. 

It's also laughable for you to pretend to care about the women's game. Can't remember the last time I've ever seen you post in the Women's sub forum about anything. I wonder if you even know the Gold Cup is currently happening. It's just a means for more of your CPL tirades.

Edited February 25 by narduch

[Unnamed Trialist]

26 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

^^^everyone that's taken the 5 day, 6000 km bus trip from Halifax to Victoria knows just how pragmatic an option it is 

Have you actually done it? I've gone Montreal to Vancouver by bus. 

I also hitchhiked from Vancouver to Saint John's, took me 2 months. But I realize now I should have had an oversize MLS logo shirt on, I would have gotten picked up far faster, and it would have taken far less.

Edited February 25 by Unnamed Trialist

[Aird25]

8 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Have you actually done it? I've gone Montreal to Vancouver by bus. 

I also hitchhiked from Vancouver to Saint John's, took me 2 months. But I realise now I should have had an oversize MLS logo shirt on and it would have taken far less.

Of course not. I fly 

[prairiecanuck]

21 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

OK then, how about attempting to respond to what people actually write rather than doing ad hominen stuff like the following:

You were the one that started the trend of becoming personal rather than discussing ideas. Then a despicable set of lies were posted and I am somehow supposed to not respond after having to put up with years on end of this behaviour from the same indiviual with no moderator intervention? It is complete and utter bullshit to suggest that I do not think CanPL should exist and that I think three MLS teams are enough. If somebody stoops to that level of behaviour I have every right to describe them as what they are, if they do not have the decency to immediately retract their lies and apologize.

The problem beyond that is that you clearly are not aware of important facts surrounding CanPL and CSB:

Bob Young didn't suddenly decide to become involved with Canadian pro soccer because he "is just trying to help", and Tim Horton's Field is not Bob Young's to provide rent free for several years on a whim. It belongs to the City of Hamilton and there was a long dispute between Bob Young and the City of Hamilton over whether he even should receive the soccer rights and what the terms of the rent should be immediately prior to CanPL's launch. Bob Young and the CFL used soccer at the Pan-Am Games to fund the rebuild of the Ticats' stadium. That resulted in there being a contractual obligation for a pro soccer legacy but it took so long to launch CanPL that there was a dispute as to whether the original terms had lapsed. MLSE wanted to have a TFC-affiliated team playing there instead and to hold the soccer rights to THF.

The league Bob Young really wanted to get into that by all accounts was his first port of call when he started exploring how to do his pro soccer legacy thing was MLS but he was soon told they weren't interested in having a Hamilton club for much the same reasons that the NHL didn't want to know where having a team in Copps Coliseum is concerned. At that point, with a moratorium in place on D2 entry in USSF-sanctioned leagues courtesy of Victor Montagliani, what else was he going to do other than explore a Canadian D1 with the CSA? You could hardly stick an L1O club in Tim Horton's stadium and describe it as a pro soccer legacy.

Yes, the city of Hamilton owns Tim Hortons's field.  Bob Young also paid 30 mil for a lease agreement for football and soccer games.  The article from Sportsnet indicated a CSB owner had offered a facility rent free to the CSA.  It didn't specifically state that was Bob Young, but who else could it have been and as per his lease agreement he very well could have been in a position to do so.  

Bob isn't the soccer guy.  He's a billionaire trying to do good things for the city of Hamilton.  In getting the stadium built councilors did want the facility used for more than just football.  Yes, Bob explore the MLS first because he actually has the money to pay the expansion fees but the MLS turned him down.  The other US leagues made no sense economically.

So enter the people everyone are complaining about.  Montagliani and crew put billionaire Bob in touch with business associates interested in a domestic league and Mediapro.  There's no way Mediapro enters into a start up league even with National team games without someone as wealthy and successful as Bob Young.  The idea of CPL is formed.  A potential 200 mil 10 year deal packaged with the national team games is born.

Now as mentioned the CSA at the time of the deal was paying to get their games on TV to the tune of roughly a millio6 n dollars and had roughly the equivalent amount of sponsorship revenue.  That revenue was also  higher in 2015 when the women hosted the world cup.  The men were a realistic option for 2026 at this point.  So 3 mil escalating to 4 over 10 years with the potential of a 2026 world cup providing additional revenue.  For 9 years the CSB likely projected they would pay out far more to the CSA than revenue coming in from Sponsorships.  As I highlighted in an earlier post, companies getting into the soccer business pay endorsement dollars to the top players.  Jessie Fleming, Aphonso Davies.  Associations don't get huge dollars.  The World Junior Hockey tourney, which is a major annual event was getting roughly 2 mil in sponsorships.  

I don't for a second buy that when the deal was struck they had the foresight that the men would qualify in 2022.  I do buy the premise that the idea that it was possible was pushed, but a guarantee or even likely...probably not. 

The CSB had the revenue they need to form the CPL.  Was that revenue enough to guarantee profits?  Absolutely not, but it substantially reduced the risk of losses and gave them a fighting chance.

[prairiecanuck]

52 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^non-sequitur after non-sequitur. Either too stupid to understand that I view a bus league as the way ahead only for pragmatic reasons related to interest level and not because I think it's the better format, or deliberately distorting what I have posted. Either way not worth responding to further. For the avoidance of doubt, where other people are concerned, I have no problem whatsoever with the concept of a domestic league, but it has to actually work. Anyone who suggests otherwise is lying and is probably doing so knowingly.

I think a bus league is ridiculous.

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Of course not. I fly 

You're un-Canadian and one of the reasons our national leagues never work (quoting someone I know).

[CanadaFan123]

52 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^non-sequitur after non-sequitur. Either too stupid to understand that I view a bus league as the way ahead only for pragmatic reasons related to interest level and not because I think it's the better format, or deliberately distorting what I have posted. Either way not worth responding to further. For the avoidance of doubt, where other people are concerned, I have no problem whatsoever with the concept of a domestic league, but it has to actually work. Anyone who suggests otherwise is lying and is probably doing so knowingly.

So explain to us how a domestic league in Canada works without flying? Since apparently the league is bankrupting themselves to fly players, in spite of having a sponsorship deal with westjet. 

[prairiecanuck]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

All this drivel is in reponse to having pointed out that bus travel is how major junior hockey in Canada and minor hockey and baseball leagues across North America have sustained themselves for decades on crowds similar to what CanPL is drawing, but hey let's nearly bankrupt the CSA for up to twenty years and create a completely toxic relationship with the CWNT and CMNT players so rosters of mediocre pro level players who are unlikely to ever be much of a factor in CMNT selection terms can fly regularly from Halifax to Victoria. That's more important than our national team programs being able to hold training camps etc.

People are entirely worried about the extension part of this deal.  Let's examine that for a second.  In order for an extension to happen Media pro would have to also extend their portion of the deal.  The recent issues between the CSB and mediapro would suggest the subscriptions are not at the level that would justify and extension.  The CPL has 5 years to grow gate revenues and interest to grow subscriptions or there will be no extension from mediapro and people could be worrying about nothing.