Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[El Hombre]

11 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Yeah I agree, our financial issues (and ability to fund programs or have friendlies) didn’t start with the CSB contract. It’s a long standing problem for the organization.  And in no way do I want to trivialize that because it’s always been a thorn in our side. 

But I respectfully disagree on some of your other points. This organization should be setting its sights on how it builds towards having the resources / program depth of other top nations (top 30 nations, to be fair).  Looking towards the non-U.S. / Mexico nations of CONCACAF is not giving us the example of how to get there. They have societal issues and other constrains Canada as a country does not have. Their sometimes qualification / sometimes stumbles really reflects the broader circumstances they have to deal with. 

We need to be working towards establishing a program that we can be confident qualifies in every cycle and then aspirationally improves from there. We need to look towards nations that are currently hitting those kind of targets as examples. 

Personally, as a general example, would look towards the number of games we’re playing on the men’s side vs. other ongoing WC qualifying nations. Think it would very much shake out that we’re on the light side.

I agree.  I compared us with other CONCACAF nations because 10 years ago we were right there with them, taking economy flights everywhere and whatever accommodations were available.  That has since changed.

[ag futbol]

5 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I agree.  I compared us with other CONCACAF nations because 10 years ago we were right there with them, taking economy flights everywhere and whatever accommodations were available.  That has since changed.

Totally fair. 
 

I hope someday soon we all get back to discussing on-field stuff because the organization reaches a level of function where it’s not worth our focus.
 

 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

I'm just astonished at the complete failure to read the room by all parties as well as the incompetence across the board.  It's a complete shit show from all sides.  

Regardless of everything else, this is a point than almost everyone here can agree on.  Without assigning "majority ownership" there is blame on all sides for the goddamned mess we are in. 

And as others have said, the timing of this, during what should be the dawn of soccer's golden age, is absolutely gutting for hardcore fans.  

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What you are overlooking is that the protests made by the CMNT and CWNT players put a significant dent into what could have been generated by the CSA under its own steam during a World Cup year.

Exactly!

Those protests cost our federation plenty and are probably one of the main reasons for our federation's current dire financial situation. 

[red card]

Globe's Cathal Kelly says for the sake of argument that the heads of Canada Soccer were willfully neglectful. Then what?

..Here’s what will happen after the most recent local bust-up – nothing.
The players will sue, and they will complain, and they will protest, and they will protest even harder. This is all fine. It reminds the rest of us that work can always be terrible, even when you have a job that’s not even a job.

But the national teams will still play. There is enough money to get them to the Olympics and the World Cup. If there isn’t enough money, someone will find some. That’s how sports works. 

Here’s the only thing anyone can promise – it doesn’t matter.
People like these teams whether they are good or bad. ...They also don’t care if the players have access to 24-hour-a-day spa treatments or get to fly First Class.

That’s the players’ business. If they don’t like the amenities they can afford on this crap deal, they can quit. It’s not like playing for Canada is their job. It’s their hobby.

If it turns out there was some shady business going down here, then that’s a different conversation. But I find it helps to apply Hanlon’s razor to most disputes – never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

If there’s one thing there has never been a shortage of in the Canadian soccer set-up, it’s stupidity.

 

Likely paywalled.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/article-canada-soccers-stupidity-to-blame-for-knife-fight-with-senior-womens/

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 minute ago, Ivan said:

Exactly!

Those protests cost our federation plenty and are probably one of the main reasons for our federation's current dire financial situation. 

Not really, given the CSA gets its flat rate of $3.5 million either way. What the backlash from the players does is limit CSB's take.

[Ivan]

3 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Not really, given the CSA gets its flat rate of $3.5 million either way. What the backlash from the players does is limit CSB's take.

Yes really.  Probably cost us millions in payouts to Panama and lost gate revenue.  Not to mention fans that were out of pocket for travelling to the game.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

It wasn't the players who booked Iran as the original opponents despite the human rights record of the Iranian regime, so there was more to what happened at that point than just the Panama game in terms of running up financial losses. In the final analysis, the strike would never have happened if there had been no CSB deal, so ultimately it still all does come back to what was signed in 2018.

[El Hombre]

20 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It wasn't the players who booked Iran as the original opponents despite the human rights record of the Iranian regime, so there was more to what happened at that point than just the Panama game in terms of running up financial losses. In the final analysis, the strike would never have happened if there had been no CSB deal, so ultimately it still all does come back to what was signed in 2018.

Well, if the butterfly effect holds true, the strike never would have happened if we hadn't won the 2000 Gold Cup, so I guess, blame Holger?

[red card]

16 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

I didn't say the deal didn't increase revenue, or even that you couldn't see why the prospect was attractive at the time the deal was signed. That doesn't change that the deal's revenues are simply not adequate to fund the national teams, and will only get progressively more inadequate with the passage of time.

That's partly why it's such a no-win, because whatever it does, it also essentially forecloses any possibility of working to substantially improve national team revenues for the foreseeable future. For people like the players who want to see the program grow, that's not exactly an appealing situation.

I might agree, but that's essentially just an admission that the CSA is bad at its job, which again, hardly something the players are going to excuse them for. They want the CSA to instead be good at its job.

After over a year of these discussions, it is unfortunate many still don't know that the CSB deal isn't the be-all and end-all financially for Canada Soccer.

It only involves 2 revenue streams. One is media rights which have been mostly an expense than a revenue driver. Sponsorship will peak for 2026 which will be capped by the CSB deal. However, the value of the CSB deal will have to wait for post 2026 in terms of sponsor retention. Post WWC 15, about 80% of the sponsors didn't renew and sponsor revenues fell by 29% from 2015 to 2018.

There are also about another 14 revenue drivers under Canada Soccer's control. The problem is that they have never historically optimized them. One exception is getting FIFA money for hosting World Cups. So, expect the revenues around the 2026 years to be the highest ever seen for Canada Soccer. 

Edited February 23 by red card

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, costarg said:

That's a good point.  I didn't expect CSB to be particularly successful with their venture either.  I don't think I'm explaining myself all that well, juggling this really deep subject with quick posts while working isn't ideal.  Chatting over a beer would be so much more fun and productive.

I'm not saying CSB is competent and intelligent in all this either, and I'm also not siding with CANWNT in this.  I'm just astonished at the complete failure to read the room by all parties as well as the incompetence across the board.  It's a complete shit show from all sides.  My main point and feeling is the board needs to go, fresh start is the only way forward for CSA.  It's toxic and dysfunctional.  I don't feel the intended end-game for this law suit is to "win" $40m.  It's to expose the crap, end the entitlement and not put up with the status quo anymore.  I do feel there is more to this than we know, nothing to do with conspiracy theories.  Having worked in contracts with partners, vendors, clients, etc for years, this is just to ridiculous to claim it was just bad judgement.

Canada is a small minor league market for anything that is not hockey.  Outside of our major market/city, events are probably the second most popular thing nation wide (stampede, F1, tennis, etc...).  We're even minor league at skiing now, how in the hell does that happen for a northern country with plenty of snow and mountains?  If I'm being honest, I feel MLS is the greatest thing to happen to Canada Soccer.  More than the CANMWNTs success, CANMNT and CPL, all of it.

Although I love what CPL is offering and producing, I don't feel the current model was the best path forward.  I don't believe a Canadian women's league will ever be self-sufficient and successful long term.  MLS and an MLS feeder league was the way forward.  Canada is too small and the markets to far apart to succeed at this without our southern neighbor.

CSA - with proper and good management - could have done this.  Outsourcing it all was just them knowing they were in over their heads.  They had the wrong people in place with no vision or belief in Canada, soccer or themselves.

For sure a beer would be great. And its more complicated because on one hand its not fully fair to let CSA's historical failings influence the view of the CSB deal, yet they are intertwined so its also not fully fair to look at everything in a vaccuum. That makes for a very difficult discussion over keyboard. 

I agree with alot of what youre saying about CSA. We need a much better quality board. We need to amend the CSB contract and we need to sign a CBA.

I defend the CSB deal out of proportionality not out of full support. If the women said, the CSB deal favored CSA until 2022 and we will see the financials of 2023-2025 (non world cup years). At that point we need a plan in place during the 10 year renegotiations to account for revenue increases (to do that, start talks with CSB now about amending things which CSB has offered). 

However, these strikes and lawsuits are much too intense given the current status of the financials.  If we were losing out on 10 mil year on year, then bring out the pitchforks but its likely that any fair amendment for revenue sharing would result in less than 1 million per year on average IMO. 

Do you think that if CSA told the women, "Here are the minutes of every meeting regarding the approval of the CSB contract and here are the financials that CSA is privy too" that they would drop the lawsuits. Or do you think they want some financial gain?  I assume they dont want to get people fired since they are suing people personally from years ago. I also assume they know that suing the board personally will not impact the CSB deal at all. 

Im not sure I think the end goal is simply exposing things. 

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, ag futbol said:

Yeah I agree, our financial issues (and ability to fund programs or have friendlies) didn’t start with the CSB contract. It’s a long standing problem for the organization.  And in no way do I want to trivialize that because it’s always been a thorn in our side. 

But I respectfully disagree on some of your other points. This organization should be setting its sights on how it builds towards having the resources / program depth of other top nations (top 30 nations, to be fair).  Looking towards the non-U.S. / Mexico nations of CONCACAF is not giving us the example of how to get there. They have societal issues and other constrains Canada as a country does not have. Their sometimes qualification / sometimes stumbles really reflects the broader circumstances they have to deal with. 

We need to be working towards establishing a program that we can be confident qualifies in every cycle and then aspirationally improves from there. We need to look towards nations that are currently hitting those kind of targets as examples. 

Personally, as a general example, would look towards the number of games we’re playing on the men’s side vs. other ongoing WC qualifying nations. Think it would very much shake out that we’re on the light side.

Good points. I think canada had one of the longest wcq campaigns of any nation... is it a coincidence we overachieved? 

[MtlMario]

I propose that when the women retire from playing (or now) that they all take over the CSA and fix all the problems. 

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Regardless of everything else, this is a point than almost everyone here can agree on.  Without assigning "majority ownership" there is blame on all sides for the goddamned mess we are in. 

And as others have said, the timing of this, during what should be the dawn of soccer's golden age, is absolutely gutting for hardcore fans.  

Someone got ahold of a monkeys paw and wished for our own league, the women finally winning the major tournament, and the men back at the WC. They just didn't understand the consequence of the wishes.

[Bison44]

[RS]

4 hours ago, Ivan said:

Exactly!

Those protests cost our federation plenty and are probably one of the main reasons for our federation's current dire financial situation. 

Canada Soccer was famously flush with cash before the players protested.

[Ivan]

14 minutes ago, RS said:

Canada Soccer was famously flush with cash before the players protested.

Ok, but it sure AF didn't help.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

It doesn't get much more complicated than the following. Victor Montagliani and many people within the CSA bubble had seen their role in elite youth coaching evaporate with the emergence of the three MLS academies were desperate for a domestic men's D1 pro league because they had a serious hatred of MLS for a variety of reasons. So desperate that Bob Young & Co were able to persuade them to hand over control of 20 years worth of national team related revenues on frankly ludicrous flat rate rather than percentage terms.

In contrast, most soccer fans and grassroots-level participants in Canada have no huge issue with MLS being the flagship competition for pro soccer in Canada, so interest in teams like York United and Vancouver FC set up as a direct rival to an existing MLS team has been marginal at best. It should have been blindingly obvious that the CWNT players were always going to have a major problem with the lack of gender equity involved with the CSB/CanPL project and were inevitably going to kick up a huge fuss at some point. The CMNT players were always going to view extra income in a World Cup finals participation year as something that should be coming primarily in their direction rather than CSB's so that also was a ticking time bomb.

Beyond the national team player protests, Mediapro wants out even before 2026 after drawing peak viewerships for CanPL games in low four figures. The three MLS franchises are still investing in youth player development at a level that massively eclipses anything the CanPL investors are doing, and the relevance of CanPL to the CMNT roster is so marginal at this point that there is no clear rationale for why any CMNT generated revenue should ever flow in that direction. A women's pro league is being set up in opposition to CSB rather than with its help and support. This is heading nowhere positive.

The CSA is structured in such a way that a highly unrepresentative clique of soccer apparatchiks who have the time on their hands to clamber up the greasy pole from the district and provincial associations was able to push an agenda with little or no oversight from other key stakeholders that most soccer people in Canada would likely not have supported if they had been given any kind of say. The strategy that has been pursued has failed spectacularly to achieve what it was supposed to and has now created a completely toxic mess.

It's time for the CSB investors to do the decent thing and admit this hasn't worked and open the way for the structure of domestic Canadian pro soccer to be renegotiated in a manner that gives all the key stakeholders, including the CWMT and CMNT players and the three MLS franchises, an equitable say in the outcome. Sadly, I suspect there is zero chance of that happening and there is a very real danger that Canadian soccer is going to continue to be completely dysfunctional for many years to come.

That's why I personally think it's understandable that the CWNT players went for the thermonuclear option at this point where the legal action they are pursuing is concerned. The only mysterious angle on that is who is backstopping what they are doing financially because I seriously doubt that they are paying all the legal costs by themselves.

Edited February 24 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[prairiecanuck]

26 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It doesn't get much more complicated than the following. Victor Montagliani and many people within the CSA bubble had seen their role in elite youth coaching evaporate with the emergence of the three MLS academies were desperate for a domestic men's D1 pro league because they had a serious hatred of MLS for a variety of reasons. So desperate that Bob Young & Co were able to persuade them to hand over control of 20 years worth of national team related revenues on frankly ludicrous flat rate rather than percentage terms.

In contrast, most soccer fans and grassroots-level participants in Canada have no huge issue with MLS being the flagship competition for pro soccer in Canada, so interest in teams like York United and Vancouver FC set up as a direct rival to an existing MLS team has been marginal at best. It should have been blindingly obvious that the CWNT players were always going to have a major problem with the lack of gender equity involved with the CSB/CanPL project and were inevitably going to kick up a huge fuss at some point. The CMNT players were always going to view extra income in a World Cup finals participation year as something that should be coming primarily in their direction rather than CSB's so that also was a ticking time bomb.

Beyond the national team player protests, Mediapro wants out even before 2026 after drawing peak viewerships for CanPL games in low four figures. The three MLS franchises are still investing in youth player development at a level that massively eclipses anything the CanPL investors are doing, and the relevance of CanPL to the CMNT roster is so marginal at this point that there is no clear rationale for why any CMNT generated revenue should ever flow in that direction. A women's pro league is being set up in opposition to CSB rather than with its help and support. This is heading nowhere positive.

The CSA is structured in such a way that a highly unrepresentative clique of soccer apparatchiks who have the time on their hands to clamber up the greasy pole from the district and provincial associations was able to push an agenda with little or no oversight from other key stakeholders that most soccer people in Canada would likely not have supported if they had been given any kind of say. The strategy that has been pursued has failed spectacularly to achieve what it was supposed to and has now created a completely toxic mess.

It's time for the CSB investors to do the decent thing and admit this hasn't worked and open the way for the structure of domestic Canadian pro soccer to be renegotiated in a manner that gives all the key stakeholders, including the CWMT and CMNT players and the three MLS franchises, an equitable say in the outcome. Sadly, I suspect there is zero chance of that happening and there is a very real danger that Canadian soccer is going to continue to be completely dysfunctional for many years to come.

That's why I personally think it's understandable that the CWNT players went for the thermonuclear option at this point where the legal action they are pursuing is concerned. The only mysterious angle on that is who is backstopping what they are doing financially because I seriously doubt that they are paying all the legal costs by themselves.

So that's it really.  This is more about your dislike for the for the inner circle.  I really have no intimate knowledge about the inner circle like many of you and and mostly going off the economics and numbers.  That ludicrous deal as you reference paid out more in the first couple years the CSA received in the previous decade.  Over the covid stretch the CSA would have got nothing under the old system.  That's the opposite of ludicrous. 

Put an number an estimate the dollars lost during the world cup year. 

I'm not sure if the CPL is viable.  If there was a team in Saskatoon, I'd probably follow the league, but there's not.  3 MLS academies to service the country.  More than enough..lol.  This is entirely personal to you.  The endeavor of having more professional teams and academies isn't a worthwhile venture because of the people involved.  It isn't because of the premise.  We know players fall through the cracks and without more opportunities players can completely miss out.  We've seen this in the CPL.

This is about Politics for you.  It's not for me.  It's about simple understanding of sports economics in the country and the distaste I have for a group that got paid a lot of money for playing for Canada at the world cup suing a volunteer board.  As someone who volunteers I find this very distasteful.  

I can assure you Bob Young is just the rich guy someone approached.  He's not the soccer guy. He literally is just trying to help.  He's under no obligation to offer Tim Horton's field up rent free several years into this deal.  He's just that guy trying to help. 

[narduch]

39 minutes ago, prairiecanuck said:

So that's it really.  This is more about your dislike for the for the inner circle.  I really have no intimate knowledge about the inner circle like many of you and and mostly going off the economics and numbers.  That ludicrous deal as you reference paid out more in the first couple years the CSA received in the previous decade.  Over the covid stretch the CSA would have got nothing under the old system.  That's the opposite of ludicrous. 

Put an number an estimate the dollars lost during the world cup year. 

I'm not sure if the CPL is viable.  If there was a team in Saskatoon, I'd probably follow the league, but there's not.  3 MLS academies to service the country.  More than enough..lol.  This is entirely personal to you.  The endeavor of having more professional teams and academies isn't a worthwhile venture because of the people involved.  It isn't because of the premise.  We know players fall through the cracks and without more opportunities players can completely miss out.  We've seen this in the CPL.

This is about Politics for you.  It's not for me.  It's about simple understanding of sports economics in the country and the distaste I have for a group that got paid a lot of money for playing for Canada at the world cup suing a volunteer board.  As someone who volunteers I find this very distasteful.  

I can assure you Bob Young is just the rich guy someone approached.  He's not the soccer guy. He literally is just trying to help.  He's under no obligation to offer Tim Horton's field up rent free several years into this deal.  He's just that guy trying to help. 

There are a lot of wild conspiracies in Ozzie's post above. 

Particularly his tangent about people at the CSA hating MLS.

He doesn't think the CPL should exist and that having the 3 MLS teams is good enough. In my opinion that makes anything he says on this issue invalid. He has an inherit bias

[narduch]

If having the 3 MLS academies only was good enough, we would have become a juggernaut at the Concacaf U17 and U20 tournaments by now.

We all know that wasn't the case.

I will still maintain that if we really want  CANMNT to get to the next level we need to have a viable and thriving domestic league.

People may disagree with how it came to fruition. And maybe the results aren't coming fast enough for some, or the level isn't yet high enough. But I'm hoping that can improve over time.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

12 minutes ago, narduch said:

There are a lot of wild conspiracies in Ozzie's post above. 

Particularly his tangent about people at the CSA hating MLS.

He doesn't think the CPL should exist and that having the 3 MLS teams is good enough. In my opinion that makes anything he says on this issue invalid. He has an inherit bias

^^^Frankly sickening that outright lies are now being posted like this. This small-minded bigot consistently does this on here and nothing is done by the moderators to put a stop to his behaviour. It is an absurd distortion of what I have posted over the years to state that I have suggested that CanPL should not exist and that I am happy with having just 3 MLS teams. What I have done is question the economic model that is being pursued. CanPL should be able to stand on its own two feet based on the revenues it can secure on its own and should operate at whatever level is sustainable on that basis. If that had been done, there would have been no Panama game strike, and the CSA would not be in the financial crisis it is currently in courtesy of the CSB deal.

[narduch]

6 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^Frankly sickening that outright lies are now being posted like this. This small-minded bigot consistently does this on here and nothing is done by the moderators to put a stop to his behaviour. It is an absurd distortion of what I have posted over the years to state that I have suggested that CanPL should not exist and that I am happy with having just 3 MLS teams. What I have done is question the economic model that is being pursued. CanPL should be able to stand on its own two feet based on the revenues it can secure on its own and should operate at whatever level is sustainable on that basis. If that had been done, there would have been no Panama game strike, and the CSA would not be in the financial crisis it is currently in courtesy of the CSB deal.

Dude. Your own post above has literal outright lies in it.

Would also love for you to point out where the bigotry is in the above response.

You throw out these insults because you know your narrative is completely made up.

Edited February 24 by narduch

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^doesn't have the decency to retract his absurd lies about what I have posted over the years but seems to expect that I will now engage with him in further conversation rather than treat him with the contempt that he deserves. School playground level stuff from somebody who does not deserve to be taken seriously but has been given free reign on here to continually disrupt threads with his boorish ignorant behaviour.

[narduch]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^doesn't have the decency to retract his absurd lies about what I have posted over the years but seems to expect that I will now engage with him in further conversation rather than treat him with the contempt that he deserves. School playground level stuff from somebody who does not deserve to be taken seriously but has been given free reign on here to continually disrupt threads with his boorish ignorant behaviour.

Pot, kettle, etc