Canadian Soccer Business (CSB)

[prairiecanuck]

The CPL has a 8 teams and provides a couple hundred jobs.  Most of these go to Canadians.  If the ladies get their way and the CSB deal is nixed that all but kills the CPL.  Is that what we want?  200 people out of work and no CPL.  

Are Waterman and McNaughton in the MLS if that original CSB deal isn't signed and the CPL isn't formed.   Borges, Diaz, Loturi, Estevez, Abzi, are they playing in Europe without the CPL being formed?

Regardless of potential procedural errors, the lawsuit is for 40 million dollars.  How are they going to prove that better deals were available in 2018 to the tune of 40 million dollars.  

The cracks in the deal could have been used re-negotiate elements of the deal.  The women are trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer.  They have over played their hand.  I have a better chance of convincing Jennifer Lawrence to leave her partner to date me than the women have of winning this lawsuit and I'm old and not particularly attractive. 

[SpursFlu]

If the CSB deal was fully transparent from the start nothing would have ever happened. That's why these people are crying. They want everyone on a leash and they want to dictate the marketplace and what we get and don't get 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 minutes ago, prairiecanuck said:

The CPL has a 8 teams and provides a couple hundred jobs.  Most of these go to Canadians.  If the ladies get their way and the CSB deal is nixed that all but kills the CPL...

Doesn't have to. CanPL, at that point, should adjust its economic model to whatever is actually sustainable based on the level of spectator interest in it without draining funds out of the national team programs. If that means regional conferences with lots of bus travel and downscaled ambitions on stadia requirements then so be it. In a similar way, Project 8 shouldn't expect any massive subsidies either and should operate at the level that's sustainable based on the income it can generate.

[Kadenge]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But seriously folks: for the me the only key errors of the CSB deal were

1-the way it was locked in for such a long period without recourse to regular an diligent revision. 

2-not including a clause whereby the amount paid would increase in proportion to the revenue CSB was generating, as a sort of commission.

Everything else is fairly standard, in a world where soccer finances are rather complicated even in the most normal circumstances.

UT those are serious and massively material "errors" in the deal and to an objective individual, even without a business/legal/financial background would appear to be other than at "arms length". I say this with the understanding that there was no certainty that the CMNT would qualify for WC22. An escalation clause or as you say incremental based on revenue, is  standard for such agreements given the 20 yr term.  To me this is the part that requires explanation, otherwise it gives the impression that it was some sort of inducement and if so there was a significant cost to the CSA.

Edited February 22 by Kadenge

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

...otherwise it gives the impression that it was some sort of inducement and if so there was a significant cost to the CSA.

Think it's blindingly obvious that a massive financial jackpot linked to the 2026 co-hosting was written into the deal as an inducement for people to invest in CanPL and that this angle was kept under wraps where the CMNT players were concerned and only came to light when it did because of an unforeseen WC finals qualification. This was counter to the interests of some of the other stakeholders in Canadian soccer that the CSA board are supposed to represent and apparently may have been done without proper due process and board oversight.

[Bison44]

The parade of bad news coming down the pipe the last few months makes so much more sense now.  Walker resigning abruptly, Bontis resigning, the mediapro/Onesoccer meltdown, no new coach for the men......it all makes sense,  CSA knew this was coming.  And the women themselves announce it just in time to steal attention from their Gold cup. 

Who is advising them???  What do they really expect from this?  The legal types on here dont think they have a leg to stand on and wont find the board members are a cartel of evil comic book villians out to destroy soccer in canada and get 40mil out of them.  And if they get their way and they completely burn down the house, who the F$CK would step up to be a vol board member knowing that if their decisions went sour they would get raked through the coals and dragged into court over it???  

 

[shermanator]

50 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

And if the women's league gains traction from these sorts of events, I would not support it.  

Agreed, and IMO the CSPA may not realize that Project 8 will lose support if the people involved are puffing their chests out about giving Canadian women more opportunity to play pro in Canada (which is a great thing by the way) while at the same time trying to kill the league that does the same for the men. A women's league already has so many barriers to success in this country that you simply cannot turn off people who want to support it with this petty nonsense.

The men's league has similar barriers for what it's worth, they're just further along the process and some cities are actually starting to care about the sport. Which to me seems like it only help knock down some of the barriers to starting a women's league, such as building out infrastructure and front office.

This offseason I've been asking around to see what the Foot Soldiers should do once Project 8 and Calgary Foothills / whatever a Calgary team will call itself crystallizes. Almost no one cares. I've reached out to a couple folks involved in the supporters scene across the country and it's silent in their cities as well. That doesn't mean there won't be anything going forward, but it does not have anywhere near the same groundswell of support that CPL had 14 months from launch.

God damn I sound like a men's rights activist. I'm actually really excited at Project 8 launching. It's just so frustrating that the success of one area of the game seems to have to come at the expense of another. 

[Bigandy]

51 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Not me, the players.  Then we can put this behind us.

 

48 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

You didn't just say this?  Again, the players haven't been given access to information they have inquired about.  

I dont think this is true. The players are not out for transparency. They are out for a bigger pay day. 

The lawsuit is about negligence and holding individuals responsible for the CSB deal. This presumes the CSB deal is negligible which is incredibly difficult to do. 

I know you have a stance that the players are always right no matter what and under all circumstances, but its difficult to have a meaningful conversation if you blame one side blindly for 100% and say the other side is always right. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, costarg said:

I see what you're saying, I'm also no fan of Bontis, but all this is unrelated.  Some companies fail with great CEO's, some companies do great with awful CEO's. 

Bontis didn't "lead" anyone to anything.  Yes he was at the top while this happened around him, but it all happened in spite of him, not thanks to him.  

The weather is nice today, Trudeau, Legault and Plante must be doing a great job!

Mixing the weather and the performance of a business or institution is not a very good way to argue a point. 

For decades we've said that our teams, especially the men, were underperforming, and that we could not even organize a league, and that we had no development, and that was mostly the fault of the CSA (I don't know how long you've been around, but some of us have felt this since the 90s). 

So now we have results, are performing decently, qualifying for WCs, the women winning gold, we have a league, you can't just up and say "oh, well the CSA has nothing to do with it". You pull the carpet out of your own rationale, as you are arguing the CSA is indifferent and essential in the same breath.

Let's be honest. Saying it all happened "in spite of Bontis" is a very bad faith argument. I make the same argument in Spain, where I am: Rubiales, who is a bit of a sleaze, was the FA president when the women won the WC. They did not win in spite of him but partially, no question, because of him; he named the technical staff, he advanced the women's program, in part, he deserves credit. And then he's a bit of sleaze, and Bontis is what he is too. 

[SpursFlu]

The women should be working with the CSB and CSA to create a women's league. But oh wait the Big 6 have "investors" I wonder who that might be? Wouldn't be hard to figure out lol

Edited February 22 by SpursFlu

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

I was chatting with someone involved with the WNT a few months ago and they stated that the WNT sees what the US WNT got in their CBA and want the same thing. It's not that the standards aren't improving over past years, it's that the WNT's expectations have risen sharply. And without realizing that there's no fucking money in the game in this country and that in order for them to get what they want, they have to kill off another part of the program. For example the U-17 WNT qualifiers a few weeks ago that needed Greg Kerfoot to fund the trip.

The sad thing is that all this is doing is making me rethink my support of the WNT, and on the day of the first W Gold Cup too. 

You want to burn everything down? Go ahead, but don't be surprised if it doesn't grow back.

Do you honestly think this is the first time Kerfoot has had to pick up the bill for them? That he picked it up because they're "killing off other parts of the program"? He's been footing the bill for them for decades.

From their perspective, what are they burning down? They won a gold medal, 2 bronze medals, the country successfully hosted a WWC, and they're still having to rely on private investors to get them to a tournament the way they were before all of this. I think it's fair of them to ask why things haven't improved on their end.

[costarg]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Honestly, I think this misses the mark.  The damage from this will be significant and lasting IMO.  This is an organization that is now very obviously subject to the whims of two player groups who have shown a clear willingness to attack the organization and its directors in an extremely public (and now litigious) fashion.  No one in their right mind will want to be part of that organization in the coming years.  Want proof?  Look at the recent resignations.  These are people who love the sport, wanted to make positive change, and are not the subject of the lawsuit  - and yet they are abandoning ship.  Anyone underplaying the impact of a $40M (!) lawsuit against Board Directors when it comes to the future ability to recruit Board members (and even administrators) is being naive.  

 

 

So we just ignore the incompetence, assume they learned from it, and move on until the next fiasco and start complaining all over again?

Suing the previous incompetent board members should not scare off new potential members.  That is in the past, we're moving on from that.  All this is doing is "draining the swamp" of the remaining ones that watched the barn burn down from the sofa.  The people resigning are not resigning because of the attacks, they're resigning because of the obvious incompetence and negligence of the people that are still there.

These people ruined the CSA from within.  The fact that no one is standing up to do the right thing is what shows the toxicity, not the new members leaving.  Do you understand how insane signing over 20 years of revenue and control to a for-profit entity is?  In any other organization or company, everyone that signed, agreed or oversaw this deal would have been dismissed long ago.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

The women should be working with the CSB and CSA to create a women's league. But oh wait the Big 6 have "investors" I wonder who that might be? Wouldn't be hard to figure out lol

The whole Project 8 posture, as if they're offended and have to be all stand-offish, even pretending they won't even share venues, is very immature. It is typical of someone inexperienced. Matheson does a few years of a degree, gets all wide-eyed, and then does a business plan. It is third year Commerce for 21 year olds. Hell, even teens are doing this now. Only she's pushing 40. 

If a women's league works independently of the CSB and the CPL, I'd be very surprised, and if it survives, even more so. But is one of the hardest routes to go and is counterintuitive on many levels (as I've posted here many times, Mediapro are leaders in promoting women's soccer in Spain, and Atlético de Madrid are standard bearers as well, and she's despising that know-how. So immature. 

Edited February 22 by Unnamed Trialist

[CanSoccfan11]

11 minutes ago, costarg said:

So we just ignore the incompetence, assume they learned from it, and move on until the next fiasco and start complaining all over again?

Suing the previous incompetent board members should not scare off new potential members.  That is in the past, we're moving on from that.  All this is doing is "draining the swamp" of the remaining ones that watched the barn burn down from the sofa.  The people resigning are not resigning because of the attacks, they're resigning because of the obvious incompetence and negligence of the people that are still there.

These people ruined the CSA from within.  The fact that no one is standing up to do the right thing is what shows the toxicity, not the new members leaving.  Do you understand how insane signing over 20 years of revenue and control to a for-profit entity is?  In any other organization or company, everyone that signed, agreed or oversaw this deal would have been dismissed long ago.

Has the CSA actually been ruined?   Seems pretty contradictory to what has actually happened.  

The org has found a way to set up a domestic pro league.

Had the men qualify for a World cup.

Had the women win multiple Olympic medals.

Hosted a successful women's world cup and landed then men's.

I'm sorry but an organization as incompetent as some on here would have you believe doesn't come close to achieving what it has the last decade or so.

No organization is perfect and there is a lot for the CSA to improve on but some of the hyperbole on here is a bit much.

[costarg]

3 minutes ago, CanSoccfan11 said:

Has the CSA actually been ruined?   Seems pretty contradictory to what has actually happened.  

The org has found a way to set up a domestic pro league.

Had the men qualify for a World cup.

Had the women win multiple Olympic medals.

Hosted a successful women's world cup and landed then men's.

I'm sorry but an organization as incompetent as some on here would have you believe doesn't come close to achieving what it has the last decade or so.

No organization is perfect and there is a lot for the CSA to improve on but some of the hyperbole on here is a bit much.

Have we had a camp?  Any camp?  You think the success will continue without camps or friendlies?  

[Bison44]

7 minutes ago, costarg said:

 

Suing the previous incompetent board members should not scare off new potential members.  That is in the past, we're moving on from that.  All this is doing is "draining the swamp" of the remaining ones that watched the barn burn down from the sofa.  The people resigning are not resigning because of the attacks, they're resigning because of the obvious incompetence and negligence of the people that are still there.

 

Um, this hasnt even begun to happen, its  just been announced.  Not moving on, just getting into the nitty gritty of blaming the board for a decision that the women dont like.  It sure seems like it scared off Alyson Walker, who prob could have been the start of a "new day" at CSA, but now we are back at step 1.  And this all hurts the mens team (you remember them, the guys who earned all that fifa WC money you were desperate to get a share of) because in the middle of this chaos we arent going to get any DECENT candidates to take over the program while the women are in the middle of torching the place.  Which means the whole "windfall" from the mens WC in 26 will prob be a fart in the wind and we'll look like idiots as our federation will be in complete shambles right when it should be celebrating a high water mark.  Which will not help domestic teams across the board, whether they are project 8 or CPL or MLS. And once again just when CDN soccer seems to be getting ahead, we slit our own throats with infighting.   

[Aird25]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

so the interests of women's soccer were sacrificed at that altar and CSA revenue driven by both national programs was deliberately siphoned off to prop up CanPL for up to twenty years.

Don't all the League 1s have men's and women's divisions, and weren't CSB working on a premier women's division until Project 8 made their announcement?

How much money generated by the women's national team 'has been siphoned off to prop up CanPL'?

Edited February 22 by Aird25

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, CanSoccfan11 said:

Has the CSA actually been ruined?   Seems pretty contradictory to what has actually happened.  

The org has found a way to set up a domestic pro league.

Had the men qualify for a World cup.

Had the women win multiple Olympic medals.

Hosted a successful women's world cup and landed then men's.

I'm sorry but an organization as incompetent as some on here would have you believe doesn't come close to achieving what it has the last decade or so.

No organization is perfect and there is a lot for the CSA to improve on but some of the hyperbole on here is a bit much.

Thank you!!!!

You can add to the list 

Substantially grew the game/popularity in canada. 

getting league 1's across canada

substantially grew sponsorship revenue about 3-4x, in 4ish years

Most of these accomplishments also have been impacted by covid.  



We get it! The CSA is evil. I just wish the people who are critical would be specific over the issues instead of saying, "lack of transparency". What is it that the critics want to see improve and how can we improve it. 

[Bigandy]

12 minutes ago, costarg said:

Have we had a camp?  Any camp?  You think the success will continue without camps or friendlies?  

Great point! The CSA certainly needs to find solutions for more camps. That doesnt mean that all of CSA is incompetent in all areas though. 

And in fairness to CSA why would we hold camps right now? A camp poutine would be a bit of a waste with players in offseason. We have only missed one official international window with no games (i think). That was during a horrible time for CSA. 

We also dont have a coach so theres less value of holding a camp now vs when we have a clear path forward (since its finite resources). 

As for youth camps, we can certainly do more. No arguments there. Good to see we have our u20s together. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

25 minutes ago, CanSoccfan11 said:

Has the CSA actually been ruined?   Seems pretty contradictory to what has actually happened.  

The org has found a way to set up a domestic pro league...

...by almost bankrupting itself in the process and that's why the CWNT players are now suing past and present officeholders because many people don't accept that the CSB deal was either a sensible or necessary course of action. The fixation some people have with having a Canada only men's D1 to rival MLS is what created the current mess. Meanwhile, despite the CSB deal, the league in question is actually only of marginal relevance to CMNT level players which is why it got described as a "minor league" at one point. 

Edited February 22 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Watchmen]

33 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

The women should be working with the CSB and CSA to create a women's league. But oh wait the Big 6 have "investors" I wonder who that might be? Wouldn't be hard to figure out lol

 

27 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

The whole Project 8 posture, as if they're offended and have to be all stand-offish, even pretending they won't even share venues, is very immature. It is typical of someone inexperienced. Matheson does a few years of a degree, gets all wide-eyed, and then does a business plan. It is third year Commerce for 21 year olds. Hell, even teens are doing this now. Only she's pushing 40. 

If a women's league works independently of the CSB and the CPL, I'd be very surprised, and if it survives, even more so. But is one of the hardest routes to go and is counterintuitive on many levels (as I've posted here many times, Mediapro are leaders in promoting women's soccer in Spain, and Atlético de Madrid are standard bearers as well, and she's despising that know-how. So immature. 

Except the CSB had indicated they had no intention of starting a women's league at this time, that their investment and concentration was on the CPL. Which is fine! It's an enormous undertaking and a risky venture, and I don't begrudge them not wanting to do that. But that doesn't give them the right to prevent others from taking a risk on a women's league. And I've always gotten the feeling that they thought they had a monopoly on it, and that  Project 8 put their noses out of joint, that they were mad it was even allowed to happen or anyone would dare attempt it. 

I don't think Project 8 succeeds. I don't think a women's league succeeds with or without the CSB/CPL involvement. But I don't begrudge someone making the attempt the way CSB always seems to.

[CanSoccfan11]

16 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...by almost bankrupting itself in the process and that's why the CWNT players are now suing past and present officeholders because many people don't accept that the CSB deal was either a sensible or necessary course of action. The fixation some people have with having a Canada only men's D1 to rival MLS is what created the current mess. Meanwhile, despite the CSB deal, the league in question is actually only of marginal relevance to CMNT level players which is why it got described as a "minor league" at one point. 

Sorry but the players don't care about the financial health of the CSA in so much as there is more money for them.  They just care about their slice of the pie.  That has been apparent for quite a while now.    

[Aird25]

28 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The fixation some people have with having a Canada only men's D1 to rival MLS is what created the current mess.

No matter how many times you say this, supporting CPL has nothing to do with MLS for many. I'm pretty sure we were the only developed country in the world without a professional men's soccer league

Edited February 22 by Aird25

[SpursFlu]

20 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

 

Except the CSB had indicated they had no intention of starting a women's league at this time, that their investment and concentration was on the CPL. Which is fine! It's an enormous undertaking and a risky venture, and I don't begrudge them not wanting to do that. But that doesn't give them the right to prevent others from taking a risk on a women's league. And I've always gotten the feeling that they thought they had a monopoly on it, and that  Project 8 put their noses out of joint, that they were mad it was even allowed to happen or anyone would dare attempt it. 

I don't think Project 8 succeeds. I don't think a women's league succeeds with or without the CSB/CPL involvement. But I don't begrudge someone making the attempt the way CSB always seems to.

They should be putting all there focus and energy in to the League1 concept at the moment. Build the infrastructure and before long build in to a fully professional League. Didn't League 1 have a national championship last year? Where were all these folks? Did anyone support that or get behind that? Thays a bid deal and something to build on. I guess women's soccer in Canada only matters when the power and money is going towards a select few individuals 

[dyslexic nam]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

So we just ignore the incompetence, assume they learned from it, and move on until the next fiasco and start complaining all over again?

Suing the previous incompetent board members should not scare off new potential members.  That is in the past, we're moving on from that.  All this is doing is "draining the swamp" of the remaining ones that watched the barn burn down from the sofa.  The people resigning are not resigning because of the attacks, they're resigning because of the obvious incompetence and negligence of the people that are still there.

These people ruined the CSA from within.  The fact that no one is standing up to do the right thing is what shows the toxicity, not the new members leaving.  Do you understand how insane signing over 20 years of revenue and control to a for-profit entity is?  In any other organization or company, everyone that signed, agreed or oversaw this deal would have been dismissed long ago.

I get it.  You need to clear the land before it planting the crop.  But a $40M lawsuit isn’t just clearing the land.  It is clearing the land, salting the earth, putting a toxic waste dump there.   Then you expect crops to grow?   Good luck.