The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[youllneverwalkalone]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

Unfortunate last name.  

I have a CA acquaintance in London named Andy Crooks. Much worse for an accountant.

[Watchmen]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

We also have the CPL because of how much the MLS teams failed on player development.

I think even if the MLS clubs were doing a better job of player development the CPL would have happened.

[Bison44]

Even tripling the fee the MLS clubs pay (drop in the bucket for that size of club) wouldnt move the needle in terms of funding for CSA and national teams.  But since this is all about fairness, equity and equality now, it wouldnt hurt for them to kick in more.  

[Watchmen]

13 minutes ago, toontownman said:

Truth. We shall thank them for again leading the way in paying treble the fee. Then in two decades the CPL will start playing catch up. 😛

Sure, though even tripling the fee won't really make up the gap in funding.

[Ansem]

21 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Reminder that you have the CPL because MLS grew the game here first.

Yes but the MLS became this big with the contribution of its privileged access to the Canadian market which was granted "exceptionally" by the CSA, FIFA and CONCACAF because there was no CPL.

On top of that, their league's rules discriminate against our players by also designating Americans as domestic players which puts us at an obvious disadvantage without reciprocity.

This definitely warrants a premium to the league & clubs but the league should be charge significantly more with the extra cash going to youth NT and youth programs.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Ansem

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Sure, though even tripling the fee won't really make up the gap in funding.

It will for programs and Youth NTs to some extend. The CSA doesn't have the luxury to not charge what they can collect and are entitled too

[Meepmeep]

5 minutes ago, narduch said:

We also have the CPL because of how much the MLS teams failed on player development.

No

We have the CPL because Vic wanted hosting the World Cup on his legacy and didn’t want to bother asking if MLS might count or if there was a possible work around to the condition (if it is in fact a condition). 
In his rush to get this done before he left we have this crap deal.  I wonder if we will ever find out how the CSB people were chosen and if there were other parties interested.  

[narduch]

Just now, Meepmeep said:

No

We have the CPL because Vic wanted hosting the World Cup on his legacy and didn’t want to bother asking if MLS might count or if there was a possible work around to the condition (if it is in fact a condition). 
In his rush to get this done before he left we have this crap deal.  I wonder if we will ever find out how the CSB people were chosen and if there were other parties interested.  

Pretty sure they were chosen based on their willingness to start a team in the CPL.

[RS]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

There should be a massive premium on this, MLS paying less than CPL is ridiculous.

This is the equivalent of Beckie saying that the women should receive more from the CSA because of what she saw the men receive in Qatar.

They both miss the mark, badly.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

No

We have the CPL because Vic wanted hosting the World Cup on his legacy and didn’t want to bother asking if MLS might count or if there was a possible work around to the condition (if it is in fact a condition). 
In his rush to get this done before he left we have this crap deal.  I wonder if we will ever find out how the CSB people were chosen and if there were other parties interested.  

Blatter said no - MLS isn't enough

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, RS said:

This is the equivalent of Beckie saying that the women should receive more from the CSA because of what she saw the men receive in Qatar.

They both miss the mark, badly.

Foreign students pay more for access to our education system than citizens (It is like this in Quebec, heck we even charged Canadians more than Quebecers)

Your comment miss the mark, awfully

Edited March 1, 2023 by Ansem

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Foreign students pay more for access to our education system than citizens (It is like this in Quebec, heck we even charged Canadians more than Quebecers)

Your comment miss the mark, awfully

MLS pays more per club than CPL does, but there are more CPL clubs in total so obviously they are going to pay more collectively. It's really not that hard to understand.

If you're arguing that MLS should pay more than they currently are, I'd probably agree with you. But seemingly suggesting that MLS should pay more than a growing CPL does in perpetuity, just because you don't like MLS, is asinine.

Your education analogy would only work if each foreign student paid more than the entirety of the domestic student base.

[Meepmeep]

7 minutes ago, narduch said:

Pretty sure they were chosen based on their willingness to start a team in the CPL.

At what cost?

There seems to be the sentiment of “thank goodness” for Bob Young and his partners because without them we wouldn’t have a CPL.  
What does that say about the market’s opinion of the viability of a Canadian only pro league?
If the market was saying this will fail economically, what does that say about the type of unbalanced terms Vic would have to offer in order to convince people to invest?

 

As I’ve mentioned before in this thread, it’s the terms of the agreement or the lack of disclosure of the terms that have us in this mess.   

 

[narduch]

Just now, Meepmeep said:

At what cost?

There seems to be the sentiment of “thank goodness” for Bob Young and his partners because without them we wouldn’t have a CPL.  
What does that say about the market’s opinion of the viability of a Canadian only pro league?
If the market was saying this will fail economically, what does that say about the type of unbalanced terms Vic would have to offer in order to convince people to invest?

 

As I’ve mentioned before in this thread, it’s the terms of the agreement or the lack of disclosure of the terms that have us in this mess.   

 

We have no idea. Because the details are not known.

We are far better off having a domestic league than not. Having 3 MLS teams was shown to be not enough.

[Watchmen]

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Blatter said no - MLS isn't enough

What did Infantino say, since he was FIFA president when Canada was selected?

[Ansem]

18 minutes ago, RS said:

MLS pays more per club than CPL does, but there are more CPL clubs in total so obviously they are going to pay more collectively. It's really not that hard to understand.

If you're arguing that MLS should pay more than they currently are, I'd probably agree with you. But seemingly suggesting that MLS should pay more than a growing CPL does in perpetuity, just because you don't like MLS, is asinine.

Your education analogy would only work if each foreign student paid more than the entirety of the domestic student base.

So a federation who's starving for money should refrain itself from charging more a foreign league that don't even reciprocate its roster rules while having the privilege of operating (and benefiting) from that federation's territory?

There's no reason why they shouldn't be charged more. If you want to keep the clubs out of it, sure but the league greatly profited from their privilege that very few other leagues possess. You want to give it away while we don't have enough cash for youth program just because you "like" MLS.

My friend, they wouldn't even feel it while it would help our program.

I'm speechless - No one's talking about unreasonably spiking up the price (no it wouldn't make a difference in the salary dispute) but we are currently unreasonably undercharging for that access. (Would make a difference for youth programs and we could even charge less four our own non-pro clubs)

The fact that some jumps at the rescue of MLS over our own is... I'm just speechless. Some are happy to abdicate this region to Mexico and the US, forever I guess.

Forgive me for wanting us to win trophies and surpass our rivals

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

What did Infantino say, since he was FIFA president when Canada was selected?

The association hosting a world cup needs to have a domestic league - the prerequisite hasn't change, never did.

MLS isn't a CSA league no matter how much you hold on to that belief, FIFA doesn't see it that way

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Can anyone provide a url for where Blatter even said that in the first place? Canada hosted a Women's World Cup with no domestic pro league in place after all.

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So a federation who's starving for money should refrain itself from charging more a foreign league that don't even reciprocate its roster rules while having the privilege of operating (and benefiting) from that federation's territory?

Who are you posing this question to? It certainly cannot be me because I suggested no such thing (and I even said I'd agree with charging MLS more than what they are currently paying).

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

There's no reason why they shouldn't be charged more. If you want to keep the clubs out of it, sure but the league greatly profited from their privilege that very few other leagues possess. You want to give it away while we don't have enough cash for youth program just because you "like" MLS.

Again, this must be aimed at someone else because I never said anything about giving it away. Your inability to see beyond "MLS bad, CPL/CSB good" seems to be hindering you from seeing any kind of nuance on this.

For the record, I like what both MLS and CPL have to offer and I have almost certainly been to more CPL stadiums than you have. And also for the record, both leagues can be doing much, much more.

10 minutes ago, Ansem said:

My friend, they wouldn't even feel it while it would help our program.

Depends on how much you are talking about. The program needs millions more to achieve sustainability and there's no way the CSA is going to get that out of MLS.

11 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm speechless - No one's talking about unreasonably spiking up the price (no it wouldn't make a difference in the salary dispute) but we are currently unreasonably undercharging for that access. (Would make a difference for youth programs and we could even charge less four our own non-pro clubs)

Then what exactly are you talking about? Because your original post bemoaned the fact that MLS pays less collectively for sanctioning than the CPL does even though MLS pay more per club.

I've already stated that MLS can and probably should pay more. So what are we talking about here?

13 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The fact that some jumps at the rescue of MLS over our own is... I'm just speechless. Some are happy to abdicate this region to Mexico and the US, forever I guess.

The fact that you see someone challenging you as "jumping to the rescue of MLS" speaks more about your mentality than mine.

Again, this issue is far more complicated than the strict black and white that you seem to pain it as. Nuance is fine, it's not going to kill you.

[narduch]

15 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Can anyone provide a url for where Blatter even said that in the first place? Canada hosted a Women's World Cup with no domestic pro league in place after all.

The Women's World Cup in Canada also didn't have grass fields.

Not really a good comparison you are making here

[InglewoodJack]

1 hour ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I have a CA acquaintance in London named Andy Crooks. Much worse for an accountant.

Was he a Uni prof? I had a prof named Crooks who taught business law, which he’d make cracks about. Don’t remember his first name though, but very good prof.

[Ruffian]

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So a federation who's starving for money should refrain itself from charging more a foreign league that don't even reciprocate its roster rules while having the privilege of operating (and benefiting) from that federation's territory?

There's no reason why they shouldn't be charged more. If you want to keep the clubs out of it, sure but the league greatly profited from their privilege that very few other leagues possess. You want to give it away while we don't have enough cash for youth program just because you "like" MLS.

My friend, they wouldn't even feel it while it would help our program.

I'm speechless - No one's talking about unreasonably spiking up the price (no it wouldn't make a difference in the salary dispute) but we are currently unreasonably undercharging for that access. (Would make a difference for youth programs and we could even charge less four our own non-pro clubs)

The fact that some jumps at the rescue of MLS over our own is... I'm just speechless. Some are happy to abdicate this region to Mexico and the US, forever I guess.

Forgive me for wanting us to win trophies and surpass our rivals

You are speechless that people have a different opinion of the MLS than you? I see the three Canadian teams as much our teams as the CPL teams. I think the current structure allows Canadians to get experience at multiple levels.

I get from your comments you have a dislike for MLS and repeat the regular negativity but I am glad the MLS fanboys don't create some fud about the CPL like it is draining money from the Canadian youth teams and repeat that in every conversation.

[narduch]

1 minute ago, Ruffian said:

 some fud about the CPL like it is draining money from the Canadian youth teams and repeat that in every conversation.

There are quite a few posters doing exactly that though 

[ag futbol]

20 hours ago, Ansem said:

Good post and thank you for the info.

While I don't think the CSA could go bankrupt, they would have to prove that CSB didn’t live up to the deal like rumors that they didn't fully pay the CSA during the pandemic. However, we have a transit project in Toronto (Eglinton Crosstown) that was supposed to be delivered fal 2020. We're in 2023 and we're still waiting. The province tried to sue but they invoked the pandemic as "force majeur" to escape liabilities. It's doubful that CSB wouldn’t have protected themselves against extreme circumstances.

That leaves option 1, CSB accepting to reopen the deal. The CSA would have to give up something in return. I controversially said that this cpuld include some say on its governance... otherwise, what else does the CSA have to give that could interest them?

All fair points. Really hard to know which direction this will go. 

 

I do wonder about things like the below. If the players won’t play and the sponsors get skittish because of bad press, the contract really isn’t the golden ticket that CSB thought it was. Potential repetitional impact for those involved is huge as well. 

 

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/rwesthead/status/1628096345268518912

[Ruffian]

4 minutes ago, narduch said:

There are quite a few posters doing exactly that though 

Well I quietly shake my head at them too. Canadian soccer only gets better with both MLS and CPL and figuring out how to fund the national teams. I have tried to ignore this whole money situation because how I see it is just multiple self interested parties making sure they get their cut of the pie. These disputes will happen any time the financial situation changes as has occurred in Soccer Canada with the women and men doing so well and both MLS and CPL finding some success.