The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Ansem]

34 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Couldn't the government attempt to force the CSB to do things they aren't legally required to do for the sake of equality, such as renegotiate the deal (an extreme outcome, but just an example)?

That could/would require legal challenges from the CSB against the government, I imagine, but the headache of it all could be enough to push some of the CSB investors over the edge, no? Who in their right mind wants to legally take on the government over Canadian Soccer of all things?

Soccer is a hard enough endeavor in this country, and investors are hard to come by. Having to deal with politically derived legal issues on top of the routine difficulties of making pro soccer work could just be enough headache for some owners to pull the plug on it all - or bankrupt the industry as it was put by Moscato. 

Ill give you this example.

In 1969, the Churchills Falls deal between Quebec and NFLD benefited Quebec in the amount of $28B vs $2B for NFLD as of today

In a nutshell, NFLD was forced to sell Quebec 85% of its electricity at $0.2 cents KW/h which Quebec resold at $8.2 cents KW/h. The only way out for Nfld power is through Quebec.

The balance of the 15% is just enough to power the residents of NFLD and marginal exportation needing Quebec's network to export...at a fee. This deal runs until 2041

Talk about getting finesse. A deal that might have made sense at first ended up completely one-sided decades later. Multiple attemps to break this deal in court were attempted... they all failed. Hydro-Quebec could have re-opened the deal out of the goodness of their hearts... they never did and this was highly political with national unity implications.

So you see, why on earth would CSB reopen this deal and what hope does anyone realistically have to break it in court? Zero. There's a reason we have a democratic system with separation of powers - you can't have the executive and legislative overule the legal system whenever it wants, they have to follow the law as well.

Lots of noise online but in the grand scheme of things, it's just noise... this deal is going nowhere.

Lastly, FIFA could suspend the CSA if there's too mich government interference in its affair - it's been done before.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Ansem

[Obinna]

7 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Ill give you this example.

In 1969, the Churchills Falls deal between Quebec and NFLD benefited Quebec in the amount of $28B vs $2B for NFLD as of today

In a nutshell, NFLD was forced to sell Quebec 85% of its electricity at $0.2 cents KW/h which Quebec resold at $8.2 cents KW/h.

The balance of the 15% is just enough to power the residents of NFLD and marginal exportation and they need Quebec network to export...at a fee. This deal runs until 2041

Talk about getting finesse. A deal that might have made sense at first ended up completely one-sided decades later. Multiple attemps to break this deal in court were attempted... they all failed. Hydro-Quebec could have re-opened the deal out of the goodness of their hearts... they never did and this was highly political with national unity implications.

Thanks for bringing up some old wounds there, bud. 

[Ansem]

Just now, Obinna said:

Thanks for bringing up some old wounds there, bud. 

I'm sorry

[Big_M]

anyway csb is losing money as sponsorships bring little cash...they are hoping they can get to a profit in the long run...and if they dont get there they might not want to extend the 9-10year deal...theres only around four years left on the initial deal as it ends in 2027

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, Ansem said:

So you see, why on earth would CSB reopen this deal and what hope does anyone realistically have to break it in court? Zero. There's a reason we have a democratic system with separation of powers - you can't have the executive and legislative overule the legal system whenever it wants, they have to follow the law as well.

Lots of noise online but in the grand scheme of things, it's just noise... this deal is going nowhere.

Lastly, FIFA could suspend the CSA if there's too mich government interference in its affair - it's been done before.

In all seriousness though, I fully get what you are saying about democratic system and following the law, but unlike Churchill falls this is an ideological issue and sometimes ideologues don't care for rules that stand in the way of their goals.

I am not saying the government will absolutely behave in this way, but I wouldn't put it past them either, hence my worry. FIFA suspending the CSA over this would obviously be the biggest of nightmares for us.  

[Obinna]

4 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I'm sorry

haha it's okay I was only messing with you.

I am over it.......kinda.

[ag futbol]

36 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That's really on the CSA to disclose as CSB isn't required to do anything as a private entity. As for the content of the deal, all that will be reveal is that the CSA signed a bad deal "in retrospect" --> No one expected the men to do this well a cycle earlier so "at the time", it made sense for the CSA.

Still, CSB will not renegotiate the deal. Imagine how our court system would be if anyone on the end of a bad deal *that isn't illegal* could just reopen it just because they wake up later and want to turn back time.

F--- I wish I could do that myself lol

I am not a legal expert (I work with lawyers regularly and their work is adjacent to my field of banking). Let me share my experience with private sector entities that end up under really shitty contracts that limit their future prospects. Typically, you try some of the following:

1) Convince your counterparty it is in everyone’s interest to renegotiate (make the pie bigger, make each party more stable, etc) 

2) Look for reasons why the contract is invalid and ask the courts to toss it (lack of due authorization, other technicalities).

3) Look for ways that your counterparty has not lived up to their obligations under the contract and use that as justification for breakage.

4) If the other options fail, threaten to file for bankruptcy protection. Basically, you go scorched earth. Tell your counterparty if they don’t come to the table they’ll risk getting nothing and have to line up with every other creditor. Does the CSA as a NFP have this sort of option? Completely unsure but if the CSB contract is seen as detrimental to the long term viability of the CSA and its ability to fulfill its mission, I would be surprised if there wasn’t a legal means to hit the reset button similar to the above. 

 

 

 

[TOcanadafan]

55 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Still, CSB will not renegotiate the deal. Imagine how our court system would be if anyone on the end of a bad deal *that isn't illegal* could just reopen it just because they wake up later and want to turn back time.

I have issue that it’s a bad deal involving public circles.  Hopefully there still exist some checks and balances in the legal system to deal with potential corruption.

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

I am not a legal expert (I work with lawyers regularly and their work is adjacent to my field of banking). Let me share my experience with private sector entities that end up under really shitty contracts that limit their future prospects. Typically, you try some of the following:

1) Convince your counterparty it is in everyone’s interest to renegotiate (make the pie bigger, make each party more stable, etc) 

2) Look for reasons why the contract is invalid and ask the courts to toss it (lack of due authorization, other technicalities).

3) Look for ways that your counterparty has not lived up to their obligations under the contract and use that as justification for breakage.

4) If the other options fail, threaten to file for bankruptcy protection. Basically, you go scorched earth. Tell your counterparty if they don’t come to the table they’ll risk getting nothing and have to line up with every other creditor. Does the CSA as a NFP have this sort of option? Completely unsure but if the CSB contract is seen as detrimental to the long term viability of the CSA and its ability to fulfill its mission, I would be surprised if there wasn’t a legal means to hit the reset button similar to the above. 

 

 

 

Good post and thank you for the info.

While I don't think the CSA could go bankrupt, they would have to prove that CSB didn’t live up to the deal like rumors that they didn't fully pay the CSA during the pandemic. However, we have a transit project in Toronto (Eglinton Crosstown) that was supposed to be delivered fal 2020. We're in 2023 and we're still waiting. The province tried to sue but they invoked the pandemic as "force majeur" to escape liabilities. It's doubful that CSB wouldn’t have protected themselves against extreme circumstances.

That leaves option 1, CSB accepting to reopen the deal. The CSA would have to give up something in return. I controversially said that this cpuld include some say on its governance... otherwise, what else does the CSA have to give that could interest them?

[Aird25]

13 minutes ago, Obinna said:

FIFA suspending the CSA over this would obviously be the biggest of nightmares for us.  

I don't know. I'd probably take a FIFA suspension over loss of our fledgling domestic pyramid and wealthy backers of the sport in this country. Unfortunately, I also think the latter is more likely, given the general sway of public opinion on the topic. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Aird25

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

I have issue that it’s a bad deal involving public circles.  Hopefully there still exist some checks and balances in the legal system to deal with potential corruption.

A bad deal doesnt mean it's illegal or corrupt

[Aird25]

3 minutes ago, Ansem said:

A bad deal doesnt mean it's illegal or corrupt

I legitimately don't know if I've ever seen this explained yet... do we actually even know if it's a bad deal?

[Ansem]

9 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I legitimately don't know if I've ever seen this explained yet... do we actually even know if it's a bad deal?

I don't think it is but it's very misunderstood. Putting aside all the complaining, I have yet to see a proposal demonstrating how CSB not being around is better for Canadian soccer long term 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Ansem

[RS]

1 hour ago, Ally McCoist said:

This makes me hate One Soccer and their hosts even more now. These mofos were defending the CSB (their employer) by saying how they're infusing so much cash into the program and it turns out to be not true at all.  

There needs to be an audit.

Fuck One Soccer.

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

They founded a pro league, started a huge media platform, and have elevated the profile of the game in this country.   

What is causing you to claim that they haven’t made any sort of investment.  
 

Neither of these posts are accurate.

CSB and MediaPro are completely separate entities, albeit very friendly ones.

[Ansem]

What's everyone's opinion on equal pay?

Personally, I agree with Rhonda

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Ansem

[dyslexic nam]

19 minutes ago, RS said:

Neither of these posts are accurate.

CSB and MediaPro are completely separate entities, albeit very friendly ones.

Sorry, shouldn’t have said “started”.  They secured that investment - which was predicated on the league and was intricately tied to the CPL project.  None of that happens without the agreement with CSB. 

[Aird25]

31 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I don't think it is but it's very misunderstood. Putting aside all the complaining, I have yet to see a proposal demonstrating how CSB not being around is better for Canadian soccer long term 

I don’t even mean in the altruistic, good for the sport in Canada, sense. I’m just wondering why people are assuming CSB is coming out on top here when Noonan is saying they’re still losing money 5 years into the deal 

[The Beaver 2.0]

24 minutes ago, Ansem said:

What's everyone's opinion on equal pay?

Personally, I agree with Rhonda

 

Well, it is usually phrased as "equal pay for equal work", but while defining "equal" in terms of pay seems easy enough to do, "equal work" is much more nuanced.  On the face of it, the work the women do certainly seems the same as what the men do, doesn't it?  (Speaking of the national teams, here.) One might consider "quality" of work done as part of the calculus, but such a thing is highly subjective and difficult to measure reliably. How do you measure "equal work"?  Do you consider sponsorship dollars raised as part of that equation? Other revenues? What complicates this entire discussion, of course, is that the CSA is not a private enterprise in the way that professional clubs are.  There isn't an open marketplace for workers/talent/free agents in this scenario.  Not really. 

Which is a long way of saying this is all beyond me.

[maccaliam]

24 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

I don’t even mean in the altruistic, good for the sport in Canada, sense. I’m just wondering why people are assuming CSB is coming out on top here when Noonan is saying they’re still losing money 5 years into the deal 

MLS clubs have said they have lost money every year for years too. No one is telling the whole truth because that’s how they make a better argument for their own interests. 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

That leaves option 1, CSB accepting to reopen the deal. The CSA would have to give up something in return. I controversially said that this cpuld include some say on its governance... otherwise, what else does the CSA have to give that could interest them?

I mean, technically speaking the CSA does have something to bargain with...they could threaten to not sanction the CPL.... I'm not saying that's a good option, but it would be the equivalent of declaring bankruptcy in the previous example: make the CSB worthless if they don't renegotiate.

[Ansem]

Just now, Watchmen said:

I mean, technically speaking the CSA does have something to bargain with...they could threaten to not sanction the CPL.... I'm not saying that's a good option, but it would be the equivalent of declaring bankruptcy in the previous example: make the CSB worthless if they don't renegotiate.

You're funny. You always say how crazy the csa removing their sanction from the 3 MLS clubs but hey let's sink the CPL and still lose all the marketing revenues for the next 2 decades.

[SoccMan]

On 2/27/2023 at 3:43 PM, PastPros said:

I still find it remarkable that he didn't resign before. Sticking around did nothing for him.

Who would hire him to lead anything after this? I wouldn't even want him to manage my local McDonald's.

It just proves that just because you have a zillion degrees doesn’t make you qualified for just any job you want . The guy is a smart cookie I’ll give him that but being in charge of a soccer federation turned out to be something he ain’t good at unfortunately. In the end anytime I heard him speak since he became the CSA president he sounded like those late night tv advertising guys you see selling crap late at night . He will be ok as long as he sticks to his professor job at McMaster .

[RJB]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

What's everyone's opinion on equal pay?

Personally, I agree with Rhonda

 

It's much more complicated than just this. Sure, the women don't generate the same revenue, but how much of a head start did the men get?  

It's naive to just say you get a cut of what you generate.  It's a complicated issue. 

[SoccMan]

So Bontis resigns and Cochrane is still there ? I say Cochrane for president!

[reggietfc]

i blame TFC for all of this