The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[CanadaFan123]

19 minutes ago, Shway said:

Based on my research, the bold aren’t on million dollar contracts. But at least 500k..

point still stands that the under is at +1400. 

Laryea is earning $1.1 million per year with forest. Hutchinson has played 18 pro seasons, Hoilett less but in the prem and Borjan longevity wise has earned solid figures his entire career. 

[SoCalTransport]

23 minutes ago, Shway said:

Based on my research, the bold aren’t on million dollar contracts. But at least 500k..

point still stands that the under is at +1400. 

I would still say they are millionaires, they've had long careers, and I would say they have endorsements and other investments.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, Shway said:

This is an extreme understatement…I would definitely take the over on this.

David, Davies, Osorio, Cavallini, are all millionaires…

Laryea, Borjan, Atiba, Larin, Kaye, Hoilett, Adekugbe, Piette, Johnston, Buchanan are all on 500k+….

Hoilett and Larin are probably in the millionaire category.

Larin was earning 1.5M at Besiktas for at least one season, maybe more. I believe that was his salary when he signed from Orlando. Did he sign a new deal at any point?

Hoilett was on about 2.6M per year at QPR, at least for one season. 

Hutchinson had multiple seasons with Besiktas where he was earning 1.1M a season. I imagine his salary at PSV was in that ball park too. The last few 1 year extensions were for half a mill, starting a few seasons ago. 

The rest are all probably close enough. 

You're missing Eustaquio by the way. He was on 440k at Pacos and it looks like his salary hasn't improved with Porto, which makes me think capology is not providing up to date numbers. I would be shocked if he signed with Porto for the same money. 

Also, Taremi at 150k is madness. That cannot be accurate, can it? 2022-2023 FC Porto Player Salaries | Capology: Football Salaries & Finances

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Obinna

[Joe Keeper]

Does anyone have a link to the full interview with Noonan?

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

9 hours ago, Vasi said:

Also, this situation shows that we need the president position to be a payed position. We need someone who is 100% involved. 

This isn’t really an issue as the CSA has a full time CEO (Earl Cochrane) who is already running the show. The president and board of directions are voluntary positions in place to guide the organisation. In fact, as far as decision making goes, Bontis has no more power than the other directors. The board needs a majority of directors to approve any decision then the real work is done by people like Earl Cochrane. No doubt that Bontis sounds like a tool and I don’t see any real vision coming from him or the board but making his position a full time paid position just doubles up what Earl does at the CEO.
 

Which leads me to my point, why isn't Earl getting slated by the media and the public?  Someone who failed at TFC and then fell upwards, ending up in charge on soccer in this country. What exactly is he doing? I get the public not understanding the CSA’s setup but the media not understanding just shows laziness in their reporting.

For reference, the duties of President (Bontis) and General Secretary (Cochrane).

https://www.canadasoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/CSA-GC-By-laws-2022-EN_Final.pdf

A. President
i. The President represents Canada Soccer and speaks for the Board, ensuring that Canada Soccer’s mission, strategic direction, policies and values, as defined by the Board, are protected and advanced.
ii. The President:
a) chairs meetings of the Board and Meetings of the Members of Canada Soccer;
b) ensures that decisions by the Board are implemented; and
c) represents Canada Soccer at meetings of FIFA, CONCACAF, other Confederations, and other international organizations, and seeks to maintain and develop good relations with these Associations/organizations and its Member organizations and government bodies.

 

10.01 General Secretary
i. The General Secretary is the chief executive of Canada Soccer and shall be appointed by the Board.
ii. The General Secretary shall be responsible for:
a) the implementation of decisions and policies approved by the Board and by the Membership at Meetings of the Members;
b) the appointment, evaluation and dismissal of all staff of Canada Soccer, with the exception of the Head Coaches of the senior National Teams;
c) recommendations to the Board on the appointment and dismissal of the Head Coaches of the senior National Teams;
d) leadership, coordination and oversight of the work of the General Secretariat;
e) staff support for meetings of the Board and its committees and Meetings of the Members;
f) managing and keeping the accounts of Canada Soccer;
g) ensuring that the minutes for the meetings of the Board and its committees, and of Meetings of the Members are compiled and kept;
h) the corporate affairs of Canada Soccer;
i) correspondence pertaining to administration of Canada Soccer; and
Canada Soccer By-Laws 
j) communications and relationships with Members, FIFA, the Confederations, government agencies, partners and other stakeholders of Canada Soccer, external agencies, and the media.

 

 

[Ivan]

14 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

Kind of puts to bed the idea (maintained by some in this thread) that the comment was a complete non-issue.  

Jordan Wilson on Onesoccer also called the comment "ignorant".

[El Hombre]

4 hours ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

This isn’t really an issue as the CSA has a full time CEO (Earl Cochrane) who is already running the show. The president and board of directions are voluntary positions in place to guide the organisation. In fact, as far as decision making goes, Bontis has no more power than the other directors. The board needs a majority of directors to approve any decision then the real work is done by people like Earl Cochrane. No doubt that Bontis sounds like a tool and I don’t see any real vision coming from him or the board but making his position a full time paid position just doubles up what Earl does at the CEO.
 

Which leads me to my point, why isn't Earl getting slated by the media and the public?  Someone who failed at TFC and then fell upwards, ending up in charge on soccer in this country. What exactly is he doing? I get the public not understanding the CSA’s setup but the media not understanding just shows laziness in their reporting.

For reference, the duties of President (Bontis) and General Secretary (Cochrane).

https://www.canadasoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/CSA-GC-By-laws-2022-EN_Final.pdf

A. President
i. The President represents Canada Soccer and speaks for the Board, ensuring that Canada Soccer’s mission, strategic direction, policies and values, as defined by the Board, are protected and advanced.
ii. The President:
a) chairs meetings of the Board and Meetings of the Members of Canada Soccer;
b) ensures that decisions by the Board are implemented; and
c) represents Canada Soccer at meetings of FIFA, CONCACAF, other Confederations, and other international organizations, and seeks to maintain and develop good relations with these Associations/organizations and its Member organizations and government bodies.

 

10.01 General Secretary
i. The General Secretary is the chief executive of Canada Soccer and shall be appointed by the Board.
ii. The General Secretary shall be responsible for:
a) the implementation of decisions and policies approved by the Board and by the Membership at Meetings of the Members;
b) the appointment, evaluation and dismissal of all staff of Canada Soccer, with the exception of the Head Coaches of the senior National Teams;
c) recommendations to the Board on the appointment and dismissal of the Head Coaches of the senior National Teams;
d) leadership, coordination and oversight of the work of the General Secretariat;
e) staff support for meetings of the Board and its committees and Meetings of the Members;
f) managing and keeping the accounts of Canada Soccer;
g) ensuring that the minutes for the meetings of the Board and its committees, and of Meetings of the Members are compiled and kept;
h) the corporate affairs of Canada Soccer;
i) correspondence pertaining to administration of Canada Soccer; and
Canada Soccer By-Laws 
j) communications and relationships with Members, FIFA, the Confederations, government agencies, partners and other stakeholders of Canada Soccer, external agencies, and the media.

 

 

I was just getting ready to say the same thing.  The last thing this organization needs is more overhead.  From what I heard Cochrane is making to what I expect they are going to be paying the 3 C-suite hires that are coming on board, this organization is way too top heavy for the revenue it brings in.

You want someone being paid by the organization to be front and center?  Cochrane is who you are asking for.  This is definitely his responsibility and he's the one that should be getting lambasted as much as Bontis.  Bontis is suffering because of his title.  Very few people know what a "General Secretary" is and does.

[El Hombre]

13 hours ago, Mattd97 said:

But also Noonan comes across as at least professional, but I'm not sure why everyone is just taking everything he says at face value. He's the CEO of a for-profit private company who is on a PR push because his company is being dragged. I dont believe for a second that they're just happily losing tons of money out of the goodness of their heart 

With organizations like the CSB and the business-savvy of the people running them, I think there is a difference between losing tons of money and "losing" "tons" of "money".

Maybe I'm jaded from having lived the last two decades in a city where the NHL team's owner cried poor every year and complained about all the money he loses and then his team turns around and gets valued at over $800 million less than a year after his death but I understand that accountants can really help spin a story.  Especially when operating under the nebulous era of Covid.

Edited February 17, 2023 by El Hombre

[Ottawafan]

Whether the CPL is making or loosing money, it should not be the responsibility of the CSA or their programs to fund the league.  Let the owners assume the risk or the reward.  Funneling $$$ into the CSB/CPL is not to the benefit of the national teams.  CPL and CSB are in damage control; where were they when the men went on strike last summer?  Where were they when these issues have been brought up by the players?  Why are the national teams still fighting this fight?

[narduch]

Just now, Ottawafan said:

Whether the CPL is making or loosing money, it should not be the responsibility of the CSA or their programs to fund the league.  Let the owners assume the risk or the reward.  Funneling $$$ into the CSB/CPL is not to the benefit of the national teams.  CPL and CSB are in damage control; where were they when the men went on strike last summer?  Where were they when these issues have been brought up by the players?  Why are the national teams still fighting this fight?

They still didn't have a commissioner back in June. Noonan was hired later.

Think its pretty obvious why this has dragged on. The CSA still has not provided any transparency.

Also it looks like this only blew up again because the women just found out they wouldn't be having any April World Cup send off games.

[dyslexic nam]

2 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Whether the CPL is making or loosing money, it should not be the responsibility of the CSA or their programs to fund the league.  Let the owners assume the risk or the reward.  Funneling $$$ into the CSB/CPL is not to the benefit of the national teams.  CPL and CSB are in damage control; where were they when the men went on strike last summer?  Where were they when these issues have been brought up by the players?  Why are the national teams still fighting this fight?

I will repeat a point I made previously - it is extremely shortsighted to think that the creation of a domestic league will not benefit the national teams.  It may not directly benefit the current crop of players but it is silly to think that it won’t eventually provide significant support for the national team.   Every men’s national team in the world features players that have gone through their domestic leagues.  This includes the US, where the origins of MLS have strong parallels with what is being done with CPL.  There is a reason why FIFA makes the presence of a domestic league a requirement of hosting the WC - it is because it is such an essential part of a country’s developmental structure.  Sure CPL isn’t a direct pipeline to the Nats, but it is still in its infancy, the quality is improving, and it has already demonstrated the ability to move players to higher tier leagues.  The fact that two players on the squad list for the WC came through CPL is something that even the skeptics should acknowledge.  Not only does that argue against the claimed lack of impact, to have it happen in just a few short years is actually a massive credit to CPL.  

You may not like the CSA spending money on CPL but that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of knowledgeable folks without a direct stake in the player’s interests disagree.   And during the very early stages of creating a domestic pro league, I think it is perfectly appropriate for our national association to be involved and supportive.  
 

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I will repeat a point I made previously - it is extremely shortsighted to think that the creation of a domestic league will not benefit the national teams.  It may not directly benefit the current crop of players but it is silly to think that it won’t eventually provide significant support for the national team.   Every men’s national team in the world features players that have gone through their domestic leagues.  This includes the US, where the origins of MLS have strong parallels with what is being done with CPL.  There is a reason why FIFA makes the presence of a domestic league a requirement of hosting the WC - it is because it is such an essential part of a country’s developmental structure.  Sure CPL isn’t a direct pipeline to the Nats, but it is still in its infancy, the quality is improving, and it has already demonstrated the ability to move players to higher tier leagues.  The fact that two players on the squad list for the WC came through CPL is something that even the skeptics should acknowledge.  Not only does that argue against the claimed lack of impact, to have it happen in just a few short years is actually a massive credit to CPL.  

You may not like the CSA spending money on CPL but that doesn’t change the fact that a lot of knowledgeable folks without a direct stake in the player’s interests disagree.   And during the very early stages of creating a domestic pro league, I think it is perfectly appropriate for our national association to be involved and supportive.  
 

The creation of a domestic league is needed and will benefit the programs in the near future.  Nobody disputes that.  But not on the backs of the national team players and to the detriment of the CSA.  Taking revenues away from them to fund a privately owned business is flat out wrong and it is why the men and women are standing up for their rights.

 

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Whether the CPL is making or loosing money, it should not be the responsibility of the CSA or their programs to fund the league.  Let the owners assume the risk or the reward.  Funneling $$$ into the CSB/CPL is not to the benefit of the national teams.  CPL and CSB are in damage control; where were they when the men went on strike last summer?  Where were they when these issues have been brought up by the players?  Why are the national teams still fighting this fight?

I want to respectfully push back on your position, if you don't mind:

1. They made a deal with CSB so now they are in fact contractually responsible.
2. They benefit from the league succeeding. This is an investment from CSA.
   • There are obvious reasons why the investment poorly executed, but the investment thesis is sound: CSA is funding player development, which in turn strengthens the CSA programs over time.
3. It may not be the responsibility of the CSA to fund the league, but it's their responsibility to grow the game. 
4. Isn't the risk shared between CSA and CSB? Since both get rewarded isn't it fine both share the risk?
   • Again, I am all for criticizing the details of the deal, but the concept of shared risk and reward seems fine, no?
5. Even if we say the CSB should independently assume the risk, a pro league wouldn't have gotten off the ground under those conditions, so what you are saying indirectly is that CanPL shouldn't exist.  

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Ottawafan said:

The creation of a domestic league is needed and will benefit the programs in the near future.  Nobody disputes that.  But not on the backs of the national team players and to the detriment of the CSA.  Taking revenues away from them to fund a privately owned business is flat out wrong and it is why the men and women are standing up for their rights.

 

This should be a criticism of the CSA, not the CSB.

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

Also it looks like this only blew up again because the women just found out they wouldn't be having any April World Cup send off games.

The irony being that the men only had one home friendly ahead of the WC and they chose (at the last minute) not to play it. Even then, this friendly was only possible because of the extra funding that FIFA provides for men's teams that qualify for the World Cup.

This is the problem with the "equality" argument re: funding - the inequality starts with what FIFA provides and then continues on with greater requirements demanded by Concacaf (e.g. the men's Nations League games, which the women don't have just yet, although IIRC it is upcoming). Any comparison of funding of teams for the She Believes Cup vs. the World Cup also doesn't make sense for obvious reasons. Even then, you can see why FIFA does this - because they can better afford to fund the men's World Cup prep & winners because it generates billions more in revenue than the women's. But apparently the women seem unable or unwilling to acknowledge this reality. They are getting the benefit of more money from the men making the WC than the men will make from the women making the WC, which might be why there are rumblings from Forrest that not all the men are in agreement with pay equity when it comes to the WC prize money.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Gian-Luca

[Ottawafan]

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I want to respectfully push back on your position, if you don't mind:

1. They made a deal with CSB so now they are in fact contractually responsible.
2. They benefit from the league succeeding. This is an investment from CSA.
   • There are obvious reasons why the investment poorly executed, but the investment thesis is sound: CSA is funding player development, which in turn strengthens the CSA programs over time.
3. It may not be the responsibility of the CSA to fund the league, but it's their responsibility to grow the game. 
4. Isn't the risk shared between CSA and CSB? Since both get rewarded isn't it fine both share the risk?
   • Again, I am all for criticizing the details of the deal, but the concept of shared risk and reward seems fine, no?
5. Even if we say the CSB should independently assume the risk, a pro league wouldn't have gotten off the ground under those conditions, so what you are saying indirectly is that CanPL shouldn't exist.  

The players never signed onto this agreement.  They are the ones getting the short end of the stick which is why they have continually brought the issues affecting them to the CSA.  As nothing has been resolved, it is fair to assume these issues are still not addressed.  Seems like the CSA/CSB is more interested in lining the pockets of a private business instead of looking after its own NT's.

  

[Obinna]

15 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

The players never signed onto this agreement.  They are the ones getting the short end of the stick which is why they have continually brought the issues affecting them to the CSA.  As nothing has been resolved, it is fair to assume these issues are still not addressed.

I am totally with you on this. The lack of transparency is incompetency at best and shady at worst from the CSA. It was wrong for the CSA to conduct business the way they did. It was a big failure on their part, in my opinion.

15 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Seems like the CSA/CSB is more interested in lining the pockets of a private business instead of looking after its own NT's.

But I don't agree with this. I don't think that describes the reality of the situation. I would put it like this: 

Seems like the CSA/CSB is more interested in helping the league survive lining the pockets of a private business instead of looking after its own NT's.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Obinna

[SF]

12 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I am totally with you on this. The lack of transparency is incompetency at best and shady at worst from the CSA. It was wrong for the CSA to conduct business the way they did. It was a big failure on their part, in my opinion.

But I don't agree with this. I don't think that describes the reality of the situation. I would put it like this: 

Seems like the CSA/CSB is more interested in helping the league survive lining the pockets of a private business instead of looking after its own NT's.

Really well stated - there is not likely any nefarious behavior here.  Almost certainly some managerial incompetence, but that is different.

[Ottawafan]

11 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I am totally with you on this. The lack of transparency is incompetency at best and shady at worst from the CSA. It was wrong for the CSA to conduct business the way they did. It was a big failure on their part, in my opinion.

But I don't agree with this. I don't think that describes the reality of the situation. I would put it like this: 

Seems like the CSA/CSB is more interested in helping the league survive lining the pockets of a private business instead of looking after its own NT's.

Which is a fair assessment, but not one held by NT's.  And nor should it be their responsibility to worry about the league.  They should be focused on how best to advance their NT teams and ensure they have all the proper tools to do so.  CSA is letting them down.

[Aird25]

28 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

They are the ones getting the short end of the stick which is why they have continually brought the issues affecting them to the CSA.

Is there a chance that any of the players aren't completely benevolent in this situation, or that they don't completely understand the situation? Can you think of any examples of this in contract negotiations in the past?

 

[Ottawafan]

Just now, Aird25 said:

Is there a chance that any of the players aren't completely benevolent in this situation, or that they don't completely understand the situation? Can you think of any examples of this in contract negotiations in the past?

 

I am less concerned about the motivation of a few players and more concerned about ensuring the men and women ( and youth NT ) have all the advantages they can get to push their teams forward.

[Aird25]

5 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I am less concerned about the motivation of a few players and more concerned about ensuring the men and women ( and youth NT ) have all the advantages they can get to push their teams forward.

So you're only considering one side of the situation?

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I am less concerned about the motivation of a few players and more concerned about ensuring the men and women ( and youth NT ) have all the advantages they can get to push their teams forward.

Needless to say, we all are. The situation sucks right now, and I don't blame the players one bit for pushing for all the resources they can squeeze from the CSA. If they don't fight for them who will?

The problem I see is the CSA doesn't have it and that's completely on the CSA. I obviously can't tell people what to say or think, but if I could what I would say is this:

direct your anger, angst and criticism directly at the CSA, particularly at Bontis. I understand Montagliani was involved in the deal originally, but Bontis had the chance to restructure, and he didn't, and he hasn't been transparent throughout the whole saga.

[Ottawafan]

5 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

So you're only considering one side of the situation?

I have considered all sides and made a rational decision based on the information.

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Needless to say, we all are. The situation sucks right now, and I don't blame the players one bit for pushing for all the resources they can squeeze from the CSA. If they don't fight for them who will?

The problem I see is the CSA doesn't have it and that's completely on the CSA. I obviously can't tell people what to say or think, but if I could what I would say is this:

direct your anger, angst and criticism directly at the CSA, particularly at Bontis. I understand Montagliani was involved in the deal originally, but Bontis had the chance to restructure, and he didn't, and he hasn't been transparent throughout the whole saga.

Oh I am upset at the CSA for being pushed into this deal with CSB.