The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Obinna]

35 minutes ago, SF said:

Also on ESPN.  Hard to be a Canadian soccer fan sometimes.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/canada-canw/story/4878485/canada-womens-team-threatens-april-strike-over-equal-pay-dispute

The players say their demands go beyond financials, but they allege they were not paid at all in 2022. They said they are seeking equal pay with the men's team going forward, but they also want to see equal investment in resources for the program, including increased staffing.

Their demands come as the Canadian Soccer Association (CSA) plan widespread budget cuts.

"This could be our most important fight that we ever have as national team players and it's one that we are determined to win," said longtime captain Christine Sinclair, the world's all-time leading international goal-scorer.

.........................

The rhetoric from the players is beginning to sound a bit unhinged. Fight we are determined to win? How exactly are they going to get increased staffing amidst widespread budget cuts? They may get parity with the men's budget, that part is easy. It's the "increases" that are more challenging, if not completely inconceivable.

Again, my take here is predicated on of these two things not happening:

1. An audit (should one take place) reveals some hidden source of money that can be freed up to increase the budget of the women's team (and the men's team by the definition of "equity"). 
2. Some unforeseen source of new money gets injected into the CSA coffers, perhaps through the CSB and/or government intervention, that makes all these problems go away. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Obinna

[Aird25]

Does FIFA provide more resources to men’s teams that qualify to the World Cup than women’s teams, or is it equal?

[SpursFlu]

Am I the only one who finds all this staffing ridiculous. I was randomly looking at the Canucks website and I was looking thru their staff. What a complete waste of money

[dyslexic nam]

41 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

This is turning into a PR nightmare for the CSA and for Soccer in Canada. There's been coverage on BBC as well. It's time for Bontis to step down

I am in no way assuming the “rightness” of either side (and in fact have consistently argued that there are always at least two sides to a story) but one could definitely make a case that Bontis may need to go.  Regardless of the ultimate source of blame, he has been at the helm during some very troubled times where there have been disputes, allegations of cover ups, canceled games, and threats of further walk outs.  It has all played out in a very public manner and persisted both before and after our WC appearance.  Leadership requires that you take these things on and resolve them.  In many organizations, someone would fall on their sword after that sort of sequence.   

[Obinna]

Another thought came to mind: Aren't budgets for each team dependent on the needs of each team?

Forgive me if this has been covered already, or if this is a "duh" moment, but isn't fixing the budgets to make them "equal" backwards? The budget is determined by the needs of the team, not the other way around. For a simple example, say the men have double the games as the women in a given calendar year, they would need double the budget, right? Doesn't that mean expectations of an equal budget are not realistic? I feel that someone alluded to this already somewhere in the thread. 

What could be made equal is the number of staff members, how much they get paid, what the players eat at camp, what quality of accommodations they have or flights they take. That makes sense to me. Making the budgets equal (if that's what they are demanding) doesn't make sense to me. 

 

[Kadenge]

2 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am in no way assuming the “rightness” of either side (and in fact have consistently argued that there are always at least two sides to a story) but one could definitely make a case that Bontis may need to go.  Regardless of the ultimate source of blame, he has been at the helm during some very troubled times where there have been disputes, allegations of cover ups, canceled games, and threats of further walk outs.  It has all played out in a very public manner and persisted both before and after our WC appearance.  Leadership requires that you take these things on and resolve them.  In many organizations, someone would fall on their sword after that sort of sequence.   

This. Bontis, rightly or wrongly, has lost the trust of the players and the coaching staff. I can't see how this gets resolved with him at the helm and it will only spiral downwards

[Kadenge]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Another thought came to mind: Aren't budgets for each team dependent on the needs of each team?

Forgive me if this has been covered already, or if this is a "duh" moment, but isn't fixing the budgets to make them "equal" backwards? The budget is determined by the needs of the team, not the other way around. For a simple example, say the men have double the games as the women in a given calendar year, they would need double the budget, right? Doesn't that mean expectations of an equal budget are not realistic? I feel that someone alluded to this already somewhere in the thread. 

What could be made equal is the number of staff members, how much they get paid, what the players eat at camp, what quality of accommodations they have or flights they take. That makes sense to me. Making the budgets equal (if that's what they are demanding) doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Unfortunately, when gender equailty  is raised, sometimes logic goes out the window.

[kacbru]

7 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Another thought came to mind: Aren't budgets for each team dependent on the needs of each team?

Forgive me if this has been covered already, or if this is a "duh" moment, but isn't fixing the budgets to make them "equal" backwards? The budget is determined by the needs of the team, not the other way around. For a simple example, say the men have double the games as the women in a given calendar year, they would need double the budget, right? Doesn't that mean expectations of an equal budget are not realistic? I feel that someone alluded to this already somewhere in the thread. 

What could be made equal is the number of staff members, how much they get paid, what the players eat at camp, what quality of accommodations they have or flights they take. That makes sense to me. Making the budgets equal (if that's what they are demanding) doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Men's WC prep included 4 friendlies in the 2 month lead-up to the world cup.

Women's WC prep includes 3 games (She believes) in the 5 months before the world cup.

I really think this is what is driving all of this.  How is is acceptable? You have a team that, while not a favourite, is certainly a contender to make the semis of the World Cup, and you cut all preparation in advance.  Does the CSA think they can just turn up and hope for the best?  This is why the women are pissed.  It's unacceptable.  The CSA says there's no money to support them, and the Women are demanding an explanation. 

The CSA trying to take their proven recipe for success at youth levels (no camps, just name the team and hope for the best) and applying it to the women.  

Next thing we know, Oliveri will be coaching them!

[SF]

59 minutes ago, Obinna said:

The players say their demands go beyond financials, but they allege they were not paid at all in 2022. They said they are seeking equal pay with the men's team going forward, but they also want to see equal investment in resources for the program, including increased staffing.

Their demands come as the Canadian Soccer Association (CSA) plan widespread budget cuts.

"This could be our most important fight that we ever have as national team players and it's one that we are determined to win," said longtime captain Christine Sinclair, the world's all-time leading international goal-scorer.

.........................

The rhetoric from the players is beginning to sound a bit unhinged. Fight we are determined to win? How exactly are they going to get increased staffing amidst widespread budget cuts? They may get parity with the men's budget, that part is easy. It's the "increases" that are more challenging, if not completely inconceivable.

Again, my take here is predicated on of these two things not happening:

1. An audit (should one take place) reveals some hidden source of money that can be freed up to increase the budget of the women's team (and the men's team by the definition of "equity"). 
2. Some unforeseen source of new money gets injected into the CSA coffers, perhaps through the CSB and/or government intervention, that makes all these problems go away. 

If there is an audit I would be stunned if it revealed any hidden money, etc. The CSA is already audited and clean opinions have been issued.

What I found odd about the ESPN article is the idea that the CSA was engaging in budget cuts. On the back of a successful men's WC qualification and the women being Olympic champions, this is utterly bananas (if true). If this was a well run organization, they would be leveraging these achievements to grow the revenue base and program budgets.

Oh well. 

[Watchmen]

10 minutes ago, SF said:

If there is an audit I would be stunned if it revealed any hidden money, etc. The CSA is already audited and clean opinions have been issued.

The audit would only reveal that money wasn't being stolen/hidden. How the money gets spent would be up to the CSA and that's very much at the heart of the whole dispute.

[Gian-Luca]

47 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Men's WC prep included 4 friendlies in the 2 month lead-up to the world cup.

Women's WC prep includes 3 games (She believes) in the 5 months before the world cup.

I really think this is what is driving all of this.  How is is acceptable?

I believe FIFA gave WC-qualified teams money so that they could play friendlies ahead of the World Cup - I seem to recall it was $2 million CAD or something like that.

My guess is that FIFA aren't doing that for the Women's World Cup, qualifying teams.

[Obinna]

2 hours ago, SF said:

If this was a well run organization, they would be leveraging these achievements to grow the revenue base and program budgets.

Oh well. 

Clearly it is not and never has been. I am sure there are some capable people in the organization (Herdman is clearly one of them), but by and large the way the organization is run as been below par, to put it mildly. 

What is the solution though, are non-soccer government people going to step in and tell the CSA how to allocate their resources? That is going to make a bad situation far worse. 

2 hours ago, SF said:

What I found odd about the ESPN article is the idea that the CSA was engaging in budget cuts. On the back of a successful men's WC qualification and the women being Olympic champions, this is utterly bananas (if true).

I don't find this odd at all, not just because it's the CSA, but because it's the CSA coming out of a COVID year where their resources, rightly or wrongly, were massively hit due to public health restrictions forced upon them by the government. 

It would be a real twist of irony if the same government then interfered further by telling the CSA how to spend its money. Fortunately, I don't think it will come to that. At least I hope it doesn't and I hope sanity prevails

[red card]

3 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Does FIFA provide more resources to men’s teams that qualify to the World Cup than women’s teams, or is it equal?

No. The prize money for WWC 23 winner is US$4 million which is only 2x higher than the prep money the men received. But it has gone up from US$1 million in 2007.

Making WWC 23 gets Canada US$750k vs the US$10 million the men received. The US women made more money off the US men making Qatar R16 than for winning in 2019.

Beckie said when she was in Qatar she saw all the people and support staff for the men's team. But FIFA paid up to 50 people per team to come to Qatar. She is unrealistic if she believes the women will be supported at the same level by FIFA and CSA should make up the difference if not. At the same time, the women don't want money from Saudis who are sponsoring their tournament.

There is advancement but like many things, it is incrementally and tied in part to revenue generation. The women for the first time will get a training base for this World Cup. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by red card

[red card]

3 hours ago, kacbru said:

Men's WC prep included 4 friendlies in the 2 month lead-up to the world cup.

Women's WC prep includes 3 games (She believes) in the 5 months before the world cup.

 

There will be more friendlies. They haven't been arranged yet. CSA has so far said not in Canada.

The US women haven't scheduled any friendlies either after SheBelieves. Arranging matches for women's international calendar is much more pliable than the men's. 

[DoyleG]

1 hour ago, red card said:

There will be more friendlies. They haven't been arranged yet. CSA has so far said not in Canada.

The US women haven't scheduled any friendlies either after SheBelieves. Arranging matches for women's international calendar is much more pliable than the men's. 

This

Outside of the Arnold Clark Cup games, the only game England has set so far is the Women's Finalissima with Brazil. They have that game because they won Euro 2022.

[red card]

Forrest returned to Footy Prime's latest podcast. He & Dan Wong especially had some opinions. Forrest as usual has the most realistic grasp of the financial situation.

Forrest: No tear up of CSB contract is happening. $25-30m (Westhead actually reported $15-20m) making in revenue isn't happening. That's not even Hockey Canada numbers. CSB looks like the winner here but I'm not sure if I would have invested back then.

Women & men aren't talking. Men aren't united about equal pay yet. There is a communication breakdown. CSA doesn't have money in part because Bontis gave away too much of WC prize money to players and paying for Family & Friends. Government involvement means FIFA will slap Canada. USSF in its first year without SUM is expected to lose $25m.

Sharman: We can acknowledge that right now in the current landscape. It's (CSB) not a good deal. Why sign a 10 year deal?  That this group are a bunch of evil money grabbers. I don't think they are. I've watched social media, all these so-called experts who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. They've picked their side and they're refusing to even look at the other side.

Dan Wong: CSB gambled on our teams while the CSA didn't. CSA played defense and took what they could get. I would never blame CSB. They have business in the name of their company. Their job is to profit. It's not Canadian Soccer Charity. It's not Canadian Soccer Nonprofit.

Why didn't Bontis know about this situation was coming down the track when we interviewed him. He has a blind spot. It looks like he lacks communication with the players or other execs not knowing and/or telling him. 

Brennan: Most ridiculous thing he ever read (level of sponsor revenue estimates).  Even with OneSoccer, you've gotta give them credit. They took a gamble. They wanted to come in and help support this game, help grow it. Nobody else wanted to.

Starts around 28 mins.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by red card

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The opinions of people who are not going to rock the boat for fear of losing access to the CSB/CSA/Onesoccer side of the equation.

5 hours ago, red card said:

There will be more friendlies. They haven't been arranged yet. CSA has so far said not in Canada...

The problem with that is you need the top players to accept the call ups and not kick up negative publicity every time a friendly is arranged.

[Ivan]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The opinions of people who are not going to rock the boat for fear of losing access to the CSB/CSA/Onesoccer side of the equation.

The problem with that is you need the top players to accept the call ups and not kick up negative publicity every time a friendly is arranged.

Sorry, to whom are you referring here?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Forrest, Sharman and Brennan

[InglewoodJack]

Can we pool some money together and have him speak on this board?

 

[SF]

10 hours ago, red card said:

Forrest returned to Footy Prime's latest podcast. He & Dan Wong especially had some opinions. Forrest as usual has the most realistic grasp of the financial situation.

Forrest: No tear up of CSB contract is happening. $25-30m (Westhead actually reported $15-20m) making in revenue isn't happening. That's not even Hockey Canada numbers. CSB looks like the winner here but I'm not sure if I would have invested back then.

Women & men aren't talking. Men aren't united about equal pay yet. There is a communication breakdown. CSA doesn't have money in part because Bontis gave away too much of WC prize money to players and paying for Family & Friends. Government involvement means FIFA will slap Canada. USSF in its first year without SUM is expected to lose $25m.

Sharman: We can acknowledge that right now in the current landscape. It's (CSB) not a good deal. Why sign a 10 year deal?  That this group are a bunch of evil money grabbers. I don't think they are. I've watched social media, all these so-called experts who don't know what the fuck they're talking about. They've picked their side and they're refusing to even look at the other side.

Dan Wong: CSB gambled on our teams while the CSA didn't. CSA played defense and took what they could get. I would never blame CSB. They have business in the name of their company. Their job is to profit. It's not Canadian Soccer Charity. It's not Canadian Soccer Nonprofit.

Why didn't Bontis know about this situation was coming down the track when we interviewed him. He has a blind spot. It looks like he lacks communication with the players or other execs not knowing and/or telling him. 

Brennan: Most ridiculous thing he ever read (level of sponsor revenue estimates).  Even with OneSoccer, you've gotta give them credit. They took a gamble. They wanted to come in and help support this game, help grow it. Nobody else wanted to.

Starts around 28 mins.

 

 

This is a really good summary and I agree with the idea that CSB should not be vilified. They stepped up, made an honest deal and took some real risk.

It's also easy to say CSA made a bad deal - they probably did, but hindsight is 20/20 and, frankly, we probably don't have the CPL without this deal. You can also argue whether that was the right decision, but it's an argument where reasonable people can disagree.

The real issue, which the podcast addressed, is that there is a clear lack of communication and transparency. And, if we believe what has been written, even parts of the CSA Board were left in the dark (which is incredible).

So, to sum, it's a mess and trust is broken. Craig seemed reluctant to say it, but did seem to think the current CSA leadership needs to step aside to begin the healing process.

I will add, however, it seems increasingly evident that the players - men and women - lack some serious minded, practical and professional guidance.

[SoCalTransport]

24 minutes ago, SF said:

This is a really good summary and I agree with the idea that CSB should not be vilified. They stepped up, made an honest deal and took some real risk.

It's also easy to say CSA made a bad deal - they probably did, but hindsight is 20/20 and, frankly, we probably don't have the CPL without this deal. You can also argue whether that was the right decision, but it's an argument where reasonable people can disagree.

The real issue, which the podcast addressed, is that there is a clear lack of communication and transparency. And, if we believe what has been written, even parts of the CSA Board were left in the dark (which is incredible).

So, to sum, it's a mess and trust is broken. Craig seemed reluctant to say it, but did seem to think the current CSA leadership needs to step aside to begin the healing process.

I will add, however, it seems increasingly evident that the players - men and women - lack some serious minded, practical and professional guidance.

Very good listen. The current executives should definitely resign.

It feels like this all about pay, and I don't think the women necessarily bring in the revenue to justify that pay.

 

[Aird25]

10 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The opinions of people who are not going to rock the boat for fear of losing access to the CSB/CSA/Onesoccer side of the equation.

Right, let's all just flippantly dismiss the opinions of former national team/TFC players, coaches, FIFA representatives, and long-term broadcasters and reporters. What incite could they possibly have

[Mattd97]

well forrest's opinions on the CSA finances might hold more weight if he didnt publicly mock someone who gave a ton of time+money+marketing to Canada Basketball when they took an interest in the CMNT

[RS]

3 hours ago, Mattd97 said:

well forrest's opinions on the CSA finances might hold more weight if he didnt publicly mock someone who gave a ton of time+money+marketing to Canada Basketball when they took an interest in the CMNT

Wait, who was that?