The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[trosenoff]

Sport minister now involved in the Canada Soccer-WNT dispute per Rick Westhead 

Edited February 11, 2023 by trosenoff

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, phil03 said:

And as I said, I don't agree with them adding it. Moreover, I don't I was triggered in any shape or form, merely expressing an honest disagreement that depicting yourself as high quality is necessarily always marketing 101, as you put it, or at least its important to do it in a way that can be supported by facts on the ground. Like, if we go by your reasoning then the league ought to market itself as the best league in the world since that would be the top quality. Obviously they don't, and it would probably just be bad for their credibility if they did it. You can strive to depict yourself as a good product, something of quality while still acknowledging where you are in the pecking order, so to speak.

Moreover, and with all due respect, the personal insults do not help with the situation or bring anything to the conversation, to use your own words. I would kindly ask you to cut it with them.

They are the D1 league in Canada whether you like it or not. I don't recall the league ever marketing itself beyond that or pretend to be something it wasn't. I see a lot of humility when facing CONCACAF clubs and MLS too.

For some, it just isn't enough... it needs to publicly acknowledge its place vis a vis MLS. I'm so tired of that petty narrative 

[narduch]

8 minutes ago, Ansem said:

They are the D1 league in Canada whether you like it or not. I don't recall the league ever marketing itself beyond that or pretend to be something it wasn't. I see a lot of humility when facing CONCACAF clubs and MLS too.

For some, it just isn't enough... it needs to publicly acknowledge its place vis a vis MLS. I'm so tired of that petty narrative 

Foreign media gives the CPL more respect than Canadian soccer fans.

Its pathetic 

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Sal333 said:

My point was that in North America, we use minor and major for our various leagues and they don't necessarily have the condescending connotations that you and others are desperately trying to infer. Perhaps you've been in Europe too long and lost touch with North America.

That was written by players who have spent their entire pro careers in Europe, our captains are Atiba, Borjan, Vitoria. But hey, perhaps they have been in Europe too long as well and have lost touch with North America. 

Meaning they meant it as a slight and a diss, just the way I took it. It's European English and you probably wouldn't understand it.

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, phil03 said:

Jesus...

I don't agree with the players' comment or think they should have taken TFCII in but honestly, I do question that particular branding strategy. I remember a conversation with a friend who was at the time in business school and he said something that stayed with me: ''accept your place in the market and play it well if you want to improve it!''

Ironically enough we were both bashing the decision to change the Impact's name to CF Montréal and Saputo wanting to make it look more like one of the big European clubs but I feel it applies here as well: if your messaging isn't aligning with your place in the pecking order it's just gonna hurt your credibility. The CPL has kept trying to depict itself as a big-shot D1 league, which ought to compare itself to the MLS rather than the USL among other things, and should have tough standards for their venues that are just not the reality. D1 league they might be but at this point, the quality is definitely closer to the USL than MLS, with the league being part of the second tier of CONCACAF's league, and the wider public isn't fooled about it either. People talk about the three MLS clubs as playing on a higher level because well, factually, they are. In the same way, the no university stadiums and other rules like that just make their life harder as they try to expand...

At the end of the day, the CPL is not a league of big-shot clubs, it's a league of newcomers who is a work in progress. And that's perfectly normal at this stage of its existence. However, they ought to be able to put their ego aside and embrace that instead of depicting the league as something it isn't yet. Don't create new York Uniteds because going to these markets is what a big-time league would do, instead create new Halifax Wanderers because going to smaller communities like that, where the league would be THE show during the summer, is what seems to work based on past experience. Instead of depicting yourself as a bigger deal then you are tell people the truth: you are a new league, a work in progress but one that is already showing great promises, and try to get them excited for the journey ahead as you build yourself up. If a university stadium work in a specific situation then use it. People like the plucky underdog and you are one, use that.

Acknowledge your place in the market and play it well, and perhaps you would soon have a new, higher, place in the market... 

Wrong. A year ago Forge was playing Cruz Azul in official competition. 

No team in Canada has ever played more prestigious club in official competition. 

That equals the highest level a Canadian club has ever played. It is in fact, along with Club America, the most prestigious club in Concacaf. And they competed well.

That is big-shot, to use the term I see you learnt from the CMNT school of poorly chosen vocabulary.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Wrong. A year ago Forge was playing Cruz Azul in official competition. 

No team in Canada has ever played more prestigious club in official competition. 

That equals the highest level a Canadian club has ever played. It is in fact, along with Club America, the most prestigious club in Concacaf. And they competed well.

That is big-shot, to use the term I see learnt from the CMNT school of poorly chosen vocabulary.

And they actually earned their respect despite losing both legs.

[DoyleG]

24 minutes ago, narduch said:

Foreign media gives the CPL more respect than Canadian soccer fans.

Its pathetic 

This is why Canada can't have nice things.

Gets too big and someone will bitch and want to tear it down.

[DoyleG]

1 hour ago, Ally McCoist said:

That's fine if you think that. I'll keep my money while I watch you get cucked by the federation.

So, being cucked by the CSA is worse than you and your family getting sodomized by MLSE?

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, DoyleG said:

So, being cucked by the CSA is worse than you and your family getting sodomized by MLSE?

Sadly, in the responses to those Molinaro tweets, someone observed that the most fanatical supporters of dissing the CPL and driving it into the minor hole it belongs in were TFC supporters. 

[Cblake]

30 minutes ago, narduch said:

Foreign media gives the CPL more respect than Canadian soccer fans.

Its pathetic 

Canadian press is only going to give it coverage beyond the local stuff if there is widespread interest it in. It is sort of in two of the three largest cities in Canada but in all honestly York has done really nothing to help itself. Media on comes when there is merit for it, especially in this world of shrinking budgets that we live in. 

[SpursFlu]

Major media outlets ignore talking about the CPL even in the context of this conversation

CPL exists 

Bell media with fingers in ears "lalalalalalalala

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Cblake]

2 hours ago, Sal333 said:

The AHL and ECHL have been called the minor leagues. No player or fan has bitched about that. It's the same in baseball. 

A league is a minor league when players view it as a stepping stone to a higher level. We here in Canada have a two tier D1 soccer system. They may be both D1 in name but make no mistake there is a huge difference between the two. It develops players and then allows them to stay home like Oso, making some pretty good money. In the past these type guys would be bouncing around the world playing in all sorts of different places, some good, some bad. MLS and CPL compliment each other in that they keep players playing in Canada at very different stages of their careers. That is pretty cool if you ask me. 

[narduch]

22 minutes ago, Cblake said:

Canadian press is only going to give it coverage beyond the local stuff if there is widespread interest it in. It is sort of in two of the three largest cities in Canada but in all honestly York has done really nothing to help itself. Media on comes when there is merit for it, especially in this world of shrinking budgets that we live in. 

I'm not talking about the press in Canada. I'm talking about fans. Some of them posting in this thread 

Edited February 11, 2023 by narduch

[phil03]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

They are the D1 league in Canada whether you like it or not. I don't recall the league ever marketing itself beyond that or pretend to be something it wasn't. I see a lot of humility when facing CONCACAF clubs and MLS too.

For some, it just isn't enough... it needs to publicly acknowledge its place vis a vis MLS. I'm so tired of that petty narrative 

No one has ever said otherwise. Being the first division somewhere doesn't mean you are as high a level of play as a first division in another pyramid. What I have seen is negative reactions to any mention that the MLS clubs are playing at a higher level and to comparisons with the USL, which where both seen as disrespectful (although never from the CPL teams themselves, it is worth mentioning). Neither triggered me but it did make me raise an eyebrow because, as I said, both the comparison and the statement are accurate. MLS teams are playing in a more highly-rated league, it isn't disrespectful to say so anymore than it is then to say that those same teams are playing in less highly rated then say Aston Villa or Dortmund or to compare its level to say the Championship. Ultimately being a D1 league mean you are the top of your pyramid, nothing more and nothing less.  

Mind you, I am not saying the CPL should position itself as a feeder team for the MLS and not have any further ambition or anything like that. I am just saying that ''look how far we have gone in five years! do you want to join us to see how far we can go in another five and how much we can do for Canadian Soccer and your community!'' is probably a better pitch then ''we are D1 and therefore a big deal!''. As someone following its own local CPL club (Athletico Ottawa), it is those promises and the pluckiness of the league that brought me on board, not D1 status.

As for standards and places for clubs I am and, fully assume myself, a pragmatist. The important is to figure out how to make the league work for the long run without further costs to other aspects of the Canadian soccer scenes. If its places like Halifax who can attract the crowds you need then go to places like Halifax. If a university stadium does the trick then use the university stadium (I never understood why that was not ok and Football stadium are aniway...)

Simply arguing that ego shouldn't get in the way isn't saying we should turn into a bus league.

33 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Wrong. A year ago Forge was playing Cruz Azul in official competition. 

No team in Canada has ever played more prestigious club in official competition. 

That equals the highest level a Canadian club has ever played. It is in fact, along with Club America, the most prestigious club in Concacaf. And they competed well.

That is big-shot, to use the term I see you learnt from the CMNT school of poorly chosen vocabulary.

Yes, it happened once and they proceeded to lose by a clear margin, 4-1 aggregate. They definitely acquitted themselves well all things considered but there was a clear difference in level. The same team played against Montreal in the next round and came within one goal to at least force Cruz Azul into a shootout. Moreover, both it and TFC have actually made it to the CONCACAF Champions League final, while the event you mentioned was Forge merely qualifying for that tournament thanks to good performances against fellow second tier clubs.

Again, none of that reflects badly on the CPL. It has shown outstanding growth in a short time and I would expect the road to eventually have a CPL club make a run in the CCL to be started by some of them merely doing ok but there is no point in believing that the league is better than it at this stage, it isn't going to help its development. 

Moreover, and more broadly speaking, I do think someone should be able to express some doubts about how things are done in the CPL without it being seen as against the league or something. A fanbase with its own opinions and willing to discuss them as well as able to look at things critically is, I would argue, key to the good health of any sports league.

Edited February 11, 2023 by phil03

[Shway]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It wouldn't be a Voyageurs board thread without the usual suspects finding some way to make a completely unrelated topic fit into their MLS vs CanPL obsessions.

The problem here is that national team generated revenues are not something that would normally be expected to wind up subsidizing a soccer league that almost none of the national team players have any level of involvement with. Those revenues would normally be expected to help fund the national team programs including the youth level ones that are expensive to operate and are unlikely to ever cover their costs.

Victor Montagliani signed over something to Bob Young & Co for up to 20 years that is very difficult to justify in big picture terms.

The irony when you mention "usual suspects".....
Actually don't call me a suspect, when I own what I want to see. Sheit I wrote a mini article on it. 

I for one, followed and probably know more about MLS than you. I know a lot about the league, and I'm tired of it for the sake of the Canadian player, fan, coach, referee, marketer, accountant....you name it.

But I guess I just set the trap for you to be involved in the conversation. 
Forgive me.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Shway

[Shway]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

"In order to get more money from a private organization, we're going to interfere in the business of other private organizations."  Can't see how that doesn't result in a massive lawsuit.

It wasn't an issue when they did it to the Fury. Yes they (Canadian MLS teams) had more years/tenure, but it wasn't about that. If you believe a lawsuit could ensue, then there could've been one for the Fury ala Cosmos v USL...

Listen it was a crazy idea which was stated. My vision for Canada soccer pyramid has been stated many times, and as someone who's been entrenched in it every step of the way as a player and a fan.....I still want it that way.

I don't love the USA, or hold any affinity to their structure, sports or way of life like some Canadians do. 
We need to use them when we need too. I personally believe don't need them for soccer & hockey anymore.

Call me a fascist Canadian.....but not the one that you would see at Parliament Hill (again American influence) 

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, Cblake said:

A league is a minor league when players view it as a stepping stone to a higher level. We here in Canada have a two tier D1 soccer system. They may be both D1 in name but make no mistake there is a huge difference between the two. It develops players and then allows them to stay home like Oso, making some pretty good money. In the past these type guys would be bouncing around the world playing in all sorts of different places, some good, some bad. MLS and CPL compliment each other in that they keep players playing in Canada at very different stages of their careers. That is pretty cool if you ask me. 

Bad definition: by your definition almost every league in the world is "minor" because most young players in it openly state they'd like to use whereever they are as a stepping stone to a top 4 European league some day. 

Bundesliga 2 is a minor league, Championship is a minor league, Serie B, the Swiss, Belgian, Portuguese, Norwegian leagues--Jayden Nelson clearly stated he wanted to use the Norway top flight as a stepping stone. Argentina is a minor league and lord help the Brazilians, then even put a statue of the patron saint of minor league footballers in Rio, arms outraised.

You are basically comparing the CPL to all those leagues, which you call "minor", because they are all "stepping-stones". So thanks.

 

[Shway]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Bad definition: by your definition almost every league in the world is "minor" because most young players in it openly state they'd like to use whereever they are as a stepping stone to a top 4 European league some day. 

Bundesliga 2 is a minor league, Championship is a minor league, Serie B, the Swiss, Belgian, Portuguese, Norwegian leagues--Jayden Nelson clearly stated he wanted to use the Norway top flight as a stepping stone. Argentina is a minor league and lord help the Brazilians, then even put a statue of the patron saint of minor league footballers in Rio, arms outraised.

You are basically comparing the CPL to all those leagues, which you call "minor", because they are all "stepping-stones". So thanks.

 

This thread is really showing me where some people stand on the relevance and importance of the CPL and I absolutely dislike it. 

I'm a fan of the CNTS, and the CPL. 

Do we really think we our national team can be successful with only 3 professional teams? It's a mockery. 
Denmark a population of 6M, with a full pyramid and doesn't have their biggest cities main club playing in nearby Germany.

[Ansem]

53 minutes ago, phil03 said:

No one has ever said otherwise. Being the first division somewhere doesn't mean you are as high a level of play as a first division in another pyramid. What I have seen is negative reactions to any mention that the MLS clubs are playing at a higher level and to comparisons with the USL, which where both seen as disrespectful (although never from the CPL teams themselves, it is worth mentioning). Neither triggered me but it did make me raise an eyebrow because, as I said, both the comparison and the statement are accurate. MLS teams are playing in a more highly-rated league, it isn't disrespectful to say so anymore than it is then to say that those same teams are playing in less highly rated then say Aston Villa or Dortmund or to compare its level to say the Championship. Ultimately being a D1 league mean you are the top of your pyramid, nothing more and nothing less.  

Who gives a fuck??? 

55 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Mind you, I am not saying the CPL should position itself as a feeder team for the MLS and not have any further ambition or anything like that. I am just saying that ''look how far we have gone in five years! do you want to join us to see how far we can go in another five and how much we can do for Canadian Soccer and your community!'' is probably a better pitch then ''we are D1 and therefore a big deal!''. As someone following its own local CPL club (Athletico Ottawa), it is those promises and the pluckiness of the league that brought me on board, not D1 status.

Stick to your day job buddy, marketing ain't for you.

56 minutes ago, phil03 said:

As for standards and places for clubs I am and, fully assume myself, a pragmatist. The important is to figure out how to make the league work for the long run without further costs to other aspects of the Canadian soccer scenes. If its places like Halifax who can attract the crowds you need then go to places like Halifax. If a university stadium does the trick then use the university stadium (I never understood why that was not ok and Football stadium are aniway...)

Simply arguing that ego shouldn't get in the way isn't saying we should turn into a bus league.

I'm sorry, all of this crap is pathetic. If CPL ain't for you, no ones forcing you. You can try to understand why people who likes the league dislike people always having this need to knock it down.

This brings nothing to the conversation. 

[Gian-Luca]

I hope the lawsuit threat Neil Davidson is reporting is either untrue or just empty rhetoric as that would be a pretty stupid move by the CSA, from which no possible good that I can see would result.

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

I hope the lawsuit threat Neil Davidson is reporting is either untrue or just empty rhetoric as that would be a pretty stupid move by the CSA, from which no possible good that I can see would result.

I don't even know how they can do that.

You can't force players to play for your National Team.

[Copes]

4 hours ago, Sal333 said:

My point was that in North America, we use minor and major for our various leagues and they don't necessarily have the condescending connotations that you and others are desperately trying to infer. Perhaps you've been in Europe too long and lost touch with North America.

They mean entirely different things and you're arguing disingenuously. 

In global soccer almost every nation has a league and not all leagues are equal. Everyone recognizes the best leagues are the English, German, Spanish, French, and Italian leagues. That doesn't mean everything else is a minor league. Around the world soccer has divisions in each country. CPL is Canada's D1 league. It is on the beginning of a (hopefully) very successful journey that will see the quality of play increase. 

AHL is a minor league of the NHL. CPL is not a minor league of MLS, much like MLS is not a minor league of Liga MX or EPL or something. 

The language is intentional because "minor league" means something very different in North America, as you mention. For North American sports fans the term has a meaning, and I assure you the word was not used "accidently". The intent from the National Team players is there and people rightly think its a garbage comment from them. 

[VinceA]

 

[red card]

1 hour ago, Cblake said:

Canadian press is only going to give it coverage beyond the local stuff if there is widespread interest it in. It is sort of in two of the three largest cities in Canada but in all honestly York has done really nothing to help itself. Media on comes when there is merit for it, especially in this world of shrinking budgets that we live in. 

Budget cuts & declining subs means the Canadian linear tv sports media coverage isn't all by sporting merit. Tier 1 sports are largely covered by merit. But since they have paid hefty right fees, lots of airtime is filled with meaningless American team games from the NBA, NHL & MLB.

Rest is dependent on whether they have ownership interest in the club/competition, can get rights for free/cheap, can get production costs paid, can just carry an American/British/Aussie feed especially if they are minority owners, and more recently to show more balance between the genders.

Otherwise, reruns & best of highlight shows is of better value than paying rights & production to show a Canadian league/competition. The days of investment spending to grow along with a Canadian league are over since paid linear tv viewership is on a secular decline.

[DoyleG]

22 minutes ago, narduch said:

I don't even know how they can do that.

You can't force players to play for your National Team.

The women players are still under contract since the CSA still provides salaries as well allocating COA carded funds.