The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Watchmen]

34 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The CSA and players have nothing to bargain with and CSB won't renegotiate for free.

The CSA will have to offer them something, not the other way around. 

I think we're finding out that the players, in fact, do have something to bargain with: actually playing the games.

Further, the CSB has already breached it's contract.  The opportunity existed to renegotiate in some manner, the CSA opted not to.

Honestly, I think the biggest complaint from everyone (except the CSB) is the flat fee.  If there was profit sharing beyond a certain threshold, I think that would eliminate a lot of the complaints.  CSB would recoup it's investment and continue to make a profit from the deal, while there'd be an incentive for the players and CSA for everyone to work together.

[dyslexic nam]

2 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I notice that you've conveniently left out "Nobody spends large quantities of public money on Canada soccer player cards."  I'm on to you! 😉

You just have to write them off as a business expense.  
 

*not a factual claim*

[Ansem]

2 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think we're finding out that the players, in fact, do have something to bargain with: actually playing the games.

That's more the CSA problem, CSB keeps getting their marketing/sponsors revenues.

I'd expect the CSA to look for new revenue streams outside of the deal and/or more government subsidies. Their inability to leverage their assets to generate revenues got them with CSB to begin with.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

17 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Not that it would ever happen, not in a million years, but fucking tell Bontis to take a hike, convince Atiba to hang them up and make him president. He has wide respect, and him and Sam organizing the Turkey fundraiser is more competent than anything the CSA has done, ever.

Not sure how familiar people on here will be with a Scottish comedian called Frankie Boyle but this was his take on professional soccer players:

Think Scott Brown was the Celtic captain at the time. Some former players have definitely proven capable of doing a job like that eventually but probably not straight after their playing career in most cases.

[Watchmen]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

That's more the CSA problem, CSB keeps getting their marketing/sponsors revenues.

Yes, by all means explain to your sponsors why they're getting nothing for their money because the players aren't playing.

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

I'd expect the CSA to look for new revenue streams outside of the deal and/or more government subsidies. Their inability to leverage their assets to generate revenues got them with CSB to begin with.

Which revenue streams are available outside of the deal? Nobody knows because they won't say, so I really don't think we can be relying on that as a "new" source of revenue.  And they damn well better not be going back to the government looking for another hand out.

[gator]

I really don't pay much attention to the business of sport, they are 2 separate entities to me but this is a case where business will potentially have a great effect on a sport I love, I am having a hard time getting over the minor league statement of the men and this makes it very difficult for me to support them! This is the 5th season that the CPL will be a MAJOR part of my entertainment, going to Forge matches is an event where I mix and mingle with like minded friends and watch a very good on field product, for the elite players in our pool to make a statement as they did is frankly insulting!

[Ansem]

4 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yes, by all means explain to your sponsors why they're getting nothing for their money because the players aren't playing.

So whenever there was a strike or lookout in other leagues, sponsors just vanished? Cmon... it's understood that it's temporary 

4 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Which revenue streams are available outside of the deal? Nobody knows because they won't say, so I really don't think we can be relying on that as a "new" source of revenue.  And they damn well better not be going back to the government looking for another hand out.

That's their job to figure it out.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Ansem

[DoyleG]

We can watch this clown show amongst the players is the kind of thing that will produce nothing but negative results. We can agree that governance at the CSA needs to improve (it always has to be, regardless of any organization). It seems that the attempts to fight for their "rights" are clouded by a lot of conflicts of interest, incestuous relationships, and severe paranoia.

We have to accept that the result of the MLS-focused moves that those in Canadian Soccer were banking on has created this mess. While people will still rant that the reason Canada got to a world cup, they are negated by the consequences on the ground. Attempts to follow this in other sports have produced even worse results. Cricket failed because someone thought hooking up with a dysfunctional USA Cricket (which makes Cricket Canada a model of honesty) has gone nowhere. Hooking up with USA Rugby in MLR has flopped badly. Canada won't be at the Rugby World Cup for the first time (if there is some justice, neither will the US).

MAK's ties to TFC make him look like someone whose speaking for his owners rather than for Canadian soccer as a whole. He's 28 and, at best, bench strength for the national team and increasing for this club side. He clearly shows examples that the so-called "minor league" scares him because those players would be the ones that would replace him. He's also gone paranoid in thinking that the CSA and CPL are conspiring to "accelerate the process". All he has done is help to make the atmosphere in locker rooms more toxic than it has to be.

On the women's side, it has to be even worse. Seeing Beckie jump onto this is rather sad since one of those "minor leaguers" getting dumped on would include her brother. Can't imagine how the family conversations are going on now after this started to come out. The others seem to be more facing the fact that they don't have a legacy to speak of after so many years of public and financial support. Sincy is going to be gone from the national team after the WWC and she is now realizing that she doesn't have that much of a legacy.

In regards to the strike that is being "promoted" by those with little concern, it won't get them what they want. The women striking? Doubtful, as they have far too much invested with the WWC coming up. They can gain their "victory" at the table but would have to back that up with a better performance down under. Unlike the USWNT, which can get its results with much less effort, that doesn't exist in regards to the CWNT.

As for the CMNT, it will be fun to see if they try to strike during the NL games in March. Given how the Panama "strike" flopped, I would expect the CSA to push for a team that wouldn't need the players from the potential strikers. Given how the players have been acting regarding this, it wouldn't be hard to find CPL and even MLS players willing to take the opportunity if it arises. A focus on qualifying for the Gold Cup would go a way to negate attempts to walk out on the national team. The words of Tex Schramm would be something for the players to consider.

 

[David Pinto]

23 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I have always wondered about the 10 year extension provisions.  I have been involved in negotiating contracts and agreements and it would be extremely odd for one party to agree to a 10 year extension clause that would be decided at the sole discretion of one of the two parties.   The CSA has never openly outlined the nature of the contract (which is part of the problem) so it is hard to know if this claim is true.  

The CPL commissioner being the head of CSB isn’t a big controversy to me. 

The main part of the claim I was wondering about was the idea that “no formal approval was ever given”.  That is a pretty big claim and requires some explanation.    

 

CSA board never signed off on the deal: 

Apparently the deal did not require the boards approval. I'm not sure if that governance has changed since then. 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Sal333 said:

You must be the 10th person I hear complain about that phrasing. Let me ask you do you really think the CPL is a major league? Does it even compare to the lower leagues in Europe or South America? Let alone the top 15 leagues.

What is of the utmost importance is the "for profit" phrasing that seems to have escaped you and the rest that are complaining about the "minor league" tag.

Both national teams are in effect funding a "for profit" league. That doesn't sound like free market capitalism to me. It sounds more like crony capitalism.

No one ever uses "minor league" in football, it's never heard. Lower league, lower tier.

Maybe they really believe the concept of "major" in MLS. So Johnston thinks he was a major leaguer?

What would make it "minor" in any case? It's a D1, not second division England or Germany or even Belgium where we get players from. 

Then it's 5 years old and giving jobs to 150 fellow Canadians. The only thing "minor league" is their ability to collectively draft a meaningful letter.

[Meepmeep]

What ever happened to argument that CSB breached the contract by underpaying during covid?   Super duper Ed is quoted as saying they were looking into it   

 

”

CSB was scheduled to pay $3.05 million to Canada Soccer in 2020. But because national team games and other events were canceled due to the pandemic, CSB said it would not make that payment in full. Cochrane confirmed that CSB paid Canada Soccer about $1.2 million that year.

“This is one of those open matters we're discussing,” Cochrane said.

Fequet argues that the incomplete payment provides Canada Soccer with an opportunity to break the contract.”

 

from here.  https://www.tsn.ca/world-cup-bonus-fight-exposes-battles-over-canada-soccer-transparency-governance-1.1824428?tsn-amp

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, David Pinto said:

CSA board never signed off on the deal: 

Apparently the deal did not require the boards approval. I'm not sure if that governance has changed since then. 

 

Someone signed the contract.  And if it is a legally binding contract, then the person who signed it was authorized to do so.   Thus it was approved - by the legally authorized party. In that context, the claim that it as never approved seems a bit misleading if Board approval was not needed as part of their internal approval processes.  

And to be clear - none of what I have said implies that the contract is perfect or that there wouldn’t have been better ways of moving ahead that would have secured more player buy-in and been more transparent.  
 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 minute ago, DoyleG said:

...MAK's ties to TFC make him look like someone whose speaking for his owners rather than for Canadian soccer as a whole....

1 hour ago, Shway said:

...The CSA and the CSB come back to the table. In those conversations it goes like this:
- the CSA says we need to renegotiate the deal we signed with you, and we have a special offer. 
- the CSA says we will not sanction the MLS Clubs to play in MLS, and have the backing from Concacaf & FIFA.
- the CSA says under this pretence the existing deal will need to be renegotiated and the room opens up to the three big honchos (TFC, Caps, CFM) to join the league and make CSB even more lucrative...

It wouldn't be a Voyageurs board thread without the usual suspects finding some way to make a completely unrelated topic fit into their MLS vs CanPL obsessions.

The problem here is that national team generated revenues are not something that would normally be expected to wind up subsidizing a soccer league that almost none of the national team players have any level of involvement with. Those revenues would normally be expected to help fund the national team programs including the youth level ones that are expensive to operate and are unlikely to ever cover their costs.

Victor Montagliani signed over something to Bob Young & Co for up to 20 years that is very difficult to justify in big picture terms.

[RS]

9 minutes ago, DoyleG said:

MAK's ties to TFC make him look like someone whose speaking for his owners rather than for Canadian soccer as a whole. He's 28 and, at best, bench strength for the national team and increasing for this club side. He clearly shows examples that the so-called "minor league" scares him because those players would be the ones that would replace him. He's also gone paranoid in thinking that the CSA and CPL are conspiring to "accelerate the process". All he has done is help to make the atmosphere in locker rooms more toxic than it has to be.

This is some seriously weird fanfic.

I understand you're the biggest MLS and TFC hater on this board, but at least try.

[David Pinto]

Just now, dyslexic nam said:

Someone signed the contract.  And if it is a legally binding contract, then the person who signed it was authorized to do so.   Thus it was approved - by the legally authorized party. In that context, the claim that it as never approved seems a bit misleading if Board approval was not needed as part of their internal approval processes.  

And to be clear - none of what I have said implies that the contract is perfect or that there wouldn’t have been better ways of moving ahead that would have secured more player buy-in and been more transparent.  
 

I'll change the statement to "it wasn't board approved" and that just adds to the appearance of this being a shady backroom deal to me. 

[Aird25]

Curious how people have explained this situation to kids. I’m seeing my nephew tomorrow and I guarantee he’s seen this

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

What ever happened to argument that CSB breached the contract by underpaying during covid?   Super duper Ed is quoted as saying they were looking into it   

 

”

CSB was scheduled to pay $3.05 million to Canada Soccer in 2020. But because national team games and other events were canceled due to the pandemic, CSB said it would not make that payment in full. Cochrane confirmed that CSB paid Canada Soccer about $1.2 million that year.

“This is one of those open matters we're discussing,” Cochrane said.

Fequet argues that the incomplete payment provides Canada Soccer with an opportunity to break the contract.”

 

from here.  https://www.tsn.ca/world-cup-bonus-fight-exposes-battles-over-canada-soccer-transparency-governance-1.1824428?tsn-amp

There are mitigating factors that enabled exceptional financial terms during COVID. The CSA most rightly accepted them. How could they claim a breach when COVID caused the circumstances that justified the underpayment?

[narduch]

54 minutes ago, VinceA said:

 

This seems highly plausible 

[Sal333]

11 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

No one ever uses "minor league" in football, it's never heard. Lower league, lower tier.

Maybe they really believe the concept of "major" in MLS. So Johnston thinks he was a major leaguer?

What would make it "minor" in any case? It's a D1, not second division England or Germany or even Belgium where we get players from. 

Then it's 5 years old and giving jobs to 150 fellow Canadians. The only thing "minor league" is their ability to collectively draft a meaningful letter.

Yeah well in this country it's called soccer rarely football. Are you gonna make a stink about that?

Maybe it's a minor league because many of the players have to get other jobs during the off season to make ends meet.

In the same country - actually  continent - the AHL and ECHL are considered minor leagues. I never heard players moan about that description. It's the same term for baseball.

You're bringing a European attitude to North America. There was no disrespect to the CPL in that NMT's letter. I suspect you and others are trying to create a tempest in a teacup so as to distract from the real issues.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Sal333

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

It wouldn't be a Voyageurs board thread without the usual suspects finding some way to make a completely unrelated topic fit into their MLS vs CanPL obsessions.

The problem here is that national team generated revenues are not something that would normally be expected to wind up subsidizing a soccer league that almost none of the national team players have any level of involvement with. Those revenues would normally be expected to help fund the national team programs including the youth level ones that are expensive to operate and are unlikely to ever cover their costs.

Victor Montagliani signed over something to Bob Young & Co for up to 20 years that is very difficult to justify in big picture terms.

You ignore that millions of youth players across the country sign up to play weekends then pay extra fees to support a national team programme that "none of them have any level of involvement with". 

Which is the primary income source of the CSA.

What a poorly formulated argument.

[Meepmeep]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There are mitigating factors that enabled exceptional financial terms during COVID. The CSA most rightly accepted them. How could they claim a breach when COVID caused the circumstances that justified the underpayment?

It depends what’s in the contract.  If it’s 3 mill a year it’s three mill a year. No contract will allow one side to unilaterally change the payment terms.  

“had a rough year financially.  I know the contract says 3 mill but here’s 1.2.  Take it and be happy”.  

the fact that Ed is saying their looking into it makes it seem like there is no clear language in the contract unplanned cancellations.  

Edited February 11, 2023 by Meepmeep

[dyslexic nam]

2 minutes ago, David Pinto said:

I'll change the statement to "it wasn't board approved" and that just adds to the appearance of this being a shady backroom deal to me. 

But if Board approval isn’t required, it wouldn’t be sought.  Government often deals with arms-length agencies that are governed by an appointed Board of Directors.  In those arrangements, some processes are conducted by staff and some by the Board.  If something isn’t within the purview of the Board, you don’t take it to them for decision so that is doesn’t appear “shady”.   What would be shady is giving them decision-making authority over something that is beyond their legal authority.  THAT is how you introduce issues of governance and illegality.  Imagine if the CSB deal went south and it was determined that it was approved illegally by the CSA board.  People would be grabbing their pitchforks in that scenario too, because it is really easy to blame a bunch of bureaucrats.   

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 minutes ago, Sal333 said:

Yeah well in this country it's called soccer rarely football. Are you gonna make a stink about that?

Maybe it's a minor league because many of the players have to get other jobs during the off season to make ends meet.

In the same country - actually  continent - the AHL and ECHL are considered minor leagues. I never heard players moan about that description. It's the same term for baseball.

You're bringing a European attitude to North American. There was no disrespect to the CPL in that NMT's letter. I suspect you and others are trying to create a tempest in a teacup so as to distract from the real issues.

Soccer and football are synonyms you genius. Major and Minor are not.

Really guy.

[kacbru]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

. It is obviously scandalous they are cutting back youth camps, programmes, home friendlies, when all are necessary.

That's what I took away from the women's statement as the primary concern (less so from the men). There is more revenue, but the programmes are being cut during WC preparation and they are asking questions. So far the CSA has refused to provide any answers.

That is scandalous. 

[Sal333]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Soccer and football are synonyms you genius. Major and Minor are not.

Really guy.

My point was that in North America, we use minor and major for our various leagues and they don't necessarily have the condescending connotations that you and others are desperately trying to infer. Perhaps you've been in Europe too long and lost touch with North America.