The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[phil03]

27 minutes ago, Califax said:

It makes our national league look like an afterthought. In the long term, it’s more important than anything or anyone. 
 

 

See, that's the issue with this whole mess: the belief that the CPL is and ought to be the supreme priority over anything else, that its ok to basically sell the future for little guarantees to get it going asap.

Most of the Soccer community in Canada currently simply does not believe that and the CSA simply failed to account for that reality and for the problems that might come with it. Everyone is, of course, entitled to their opinion on the subject but at the end of the day it was completely predictable it would cause tensions. The CSA ought to have either factored that in their decision-making or prepared for the comms they would need to do to convince, or at least mollify, people. 

And that's not even going into how the fact they make their desperation for it so public basically undermined their negotiation position with the CSB from the get-go...

Hence the mess we are in right now.

[Sal333]

17 hours ago, king1010 said:

That statement from the canmnt doesnt look good on them. Calling the cpl minor league and signing off with “yours in sport” is contradictory. If it was about the sport they wouldn't be slamming our professional league. It’s clear its about the money. 

You must be the 10th person I hear complain about that phrasing. Let me ask you do you really think the CPL is a major league? Does it even compare to the lower leagues in Europe or South America? Let alone the top 15 leagues.

What is of the utmost importance is the "for profit" phrasing that seems to have escaped you and the rest that are complaining about the "minor league" tag.

Both national teams are in effect funding a "for profit" league. That doesn't sound like free market capitalism to me. It sounds more like crony capitalism.

[Vasi]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

I agree people are getting too worked up over the minor league comment. The rest of your comments… let’s let the league play out before we determine what it is or will be. 

Yes the league will get better as time goes. 

Developing the league should be a long term goal.

In the short term we need to develop and incest heavy in the nat team. We have a wc in 3 years. 

My issue is not with the cpl.

My issue is wil the csa slashing the mens and womens budget by 50%. We will be a fucking laughingstock in 26 if we continue down this path. 

The money made from sponsors largely due to the popularity of the nat teams should be reinvested in the program. 

 

[phil03]

13 minutes ago, Shway said:

I have a crazy idea.......

The CSA and the CSB come back to the table. In those conversations it goes like this:
- the CSA says we need to renegotiate the deal we signed with you, and we have a special offer. 
- the CSA says we will not sanction the MLS Clubs to play in MLS, and have the backing from Concacaf & FIFA.
- the CSA says under this pretence the existing deal will need to be renegotiated and the room opens up to the three big honchos (TFC, Caps, CFM) to join the league and make CSB even more lucrative. 

At this point, this is the only way I see the CSB would go back to the table. Otherwise they can't be strong armed.

Yes, because essentially destroying the whole business and sporting model of the three biggest club in the country, which most players in the CANMNT do have ties too, as well as picking a massive fight with their fanbases and pretty wealthy and influential ownerships and potentially breaking Canadian business laws (since we do not know the exact term of the waiver and for all that FIFA would allow the CSA to force them into the CPL there is no guarantees Canadian laws will) will actually improve things...

Counter proposal: on one hand the CSB need the national programs to actually play for it to be money to be funneled toward the CPL so players do have leverage on CSB. On the other the CSB is legally entitled to most of the money the players would wish to see spent elsewhere. So lets discount with the usual intermediary, which isn't really trusted by the players anyway and has only limited spaces to make concessions, and let the players and CSB negotiate directly on this one.

Edited February 11, 2023 by phil03

[David Pinto]

Who care about the wording around the CPL. 

The CSB deal was corrupt, is corrupt and will continue to be corrupt for another 20-30 years. No formal approval was ever given, and now a for profit entity is taking the majority of the funding away from the people that generate the revenue. 

The fact that the CPL commissioner is also the head of CSB is blatant corruption. 

The CSA needs to be torn down to the ground and the CSB deal needs to be torn up. 

[The Pessimist]

My attempt at very limited accounting.

The CSA is a non-profit organization. If hypothetically they kept the $10 mil. WC bonus they could spend the entire $10 mil on player development or other CSA expenses.

If the bonus money is given to the players, dependant on their individual financial situation, up to 50% of the money would go to taxes. That would leave $2.5 mil. each to split between the men and women's teams or approximately $90,000 per player. Although it is a significant amount is it really worth the sh*tstorm that it is causing. I'm certain that when players are called to play for the national team they are doing it for pride of their country not for the money. 

[dyslexic nam]

9 minutes ago, David Pinto said:

Who care about the wording around the CPL. 

The CSB deal was corrupt, is corrupt and will continue to be corrupt for another 20-30 years. No formal approval was ever given, and now a for profit entity is taking the majority of the funding away from the people that generate the revenue. 

The fact that the CPL commissioner is also the head of CSB is blatant corruption. 

The CSA needs to be torn down to the ground and the CSB deal needs to be torn up. 

I am curious what your sources are for this info.   

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 hours ago, Copes said:

....CSB was a gamble to support the program before the program took off....

That's the rhetoric that gets peddled but a World Cup hosting was always going to be involved.

[Ivan]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

The CSA signed this agreement, the players didn't.  They are contractors, not employees of the CSA.  Players have every right through negotiations to set their terms of employment.  The CSA can't claim they have no money while at the same time using its revenues to send to the CSB.  It isn't on the players to grow the game financially in Canada only to watch those dollars being filtered outside of the program to fund a private business.

Agree with the bolded.  They have every right, and, have exercised that right by claiming a majority share of the WC bonus money and personal sponsorship rights (mostly through Davies and his agents' efforts).  I don't begrudge them that, as you say, it is their right.

However, how TF are the CSA sending their revenues to the CSB?  The revenue CSB gets through the deal comes from sponsorships that they have secured!  The CSA did nothing to secure that money, they get $3-4 a year and don't do anything for it, as part of the deal. 

[Sal333]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

The fact the the CSA hasn't shared the books with the players yet makes me think they are hiding something.

A non-profit should not be able to hide this information from its own stakeholders.

You think?

This was plain and simple from day one when the Men's team boycotted the Panama game.

[DoyleG]

9 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am curious what your sources are for this info.   

MAK

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, DoyleG said:

MAK

In my experience, the lead negotiator or spokesperson for one party in the negotiation is not the best source of objective information.

 

[Ivan]

6 minutes ago, DoyleG said:

MAK

Curious.  Since when do the players give approval to what a National Federation decides?  Any federation.

 

[Ivan]

The bottom line here is why has the NT funding at all levels been cut.  It makes no sense.  The end result is that we have a fractured organisation from the players to the Association to the League(s).  Even though everything has changed for the better with the state of the game.

"The more things change, the more they stay the same."

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There's more: 

-the CSB deal facilitated the league, without which there would be no World Cup in Canada. The league was a necessary factor in our participation in the joint bid.

-the CSB deal also enabled the funds from MediaPro to enter into the Canadian soccer landscape. While we don't know much about how the money is spent, distributed, overall and less so annually, there had to be a business entity to engage that sponsorship.

-MediaPro sets up OneSoccer, in the CSB umbrella, but they don't just focus on the CPL. In fact, they are now the leading media outlet for Canadian soccer news and cover the NTs well, men and women. How the players think things would be without that, in terms of public image, individual sponsorship possibilities, growing the game, I don't know.

-If it weren't for OneSoccer, footie coverage in Canada would still be piecemeal and governed by half-assed journalists writing the occasional article. Awareness and sympathy for the players' cause, men and women, has been enhance by entities run by the CSB.

-ditto all other sponsorship deals the CPL has, Macron, overall partners--you can't just receive money as an entity without some model of commercial incorporation.

-the CSB owns, or part-owns (Québec) and is driving the League One model across the country. They are not only facilitating pro soccer for about 150 Canadians who otherwise might not have that opportunity, but the dream of pro soccer for hundreds more.

League One includes women's team: a structure owned and run overall by CSB has ensure equity in the model in its newest iteration, BC, where no team can enter without both women and men's teams. Are the women also ignoring that grassroots structure and those players? Do they think everyone has to skip off to NCAA like most of them?

-CPL/CSB has finally recognised the Players Association, and has raised the minimum salary in the midst of disfavourable conditions for ticket sales. While this took too long, it proves there is an ultimate recognition of working conditions and a will to dialogue with pro players. The CSA in fact has far more monetary negotiations pending with the NT players than CSB does with CPL players.

-the CPL with CSB support is creating soccer infrastructure across the country. We now have venues where matches can be played we did not have before, Langford, Langley, Calgary, the GTA, Halifax. While the women vilify CSB, they ignore that Matheson, Sinclair have openly stated they'd likely benefit from CPL stadiums for the women's league. So how does that figure, starting a women's pro league benefiting from what the CPL is building, but thinking it just comes gifted?

-will the men also criticise the CSA for supporting a women's for-profit minor league when that comes along?

-the CPL has radically grown the support structure around pro soccer, such as with reffing, disciplinary committees, soccer administrators, soccer marketing people, the rise of new player agents. 

All these are arguments to be made apart from the obvious argument than in 4 years, with only one season fully without the pandemic's effects, the league has already contributed to the CMNT.

If the CSA signed a bad deal, I do think they should be trying to renegotiate it. This is fair, if you had a crappy mortgage deal you'd do the same. It is obviously scandalous they are cutting back youth camps, programmes, home friendlies, when all are necessary. But there is another side to the story.

☝️ Bingo

Blowing up the CSB deal means that most if not all of it goes away. A reminder that media and sponsorship deals were signed with CSB and not the CSA.

What's the solution beside giving a bigger share to the players and hoping that the CSA will manage the pyramid, league and get sponsors better than CSB did?

[Ansem]

36 minutes ago, phil03 said:

Yes, because essentially destroying the whole business and sporting model of the three biggest club in the country, which most players in the CANMNT do have ties too, as well as picking a massive fight with their fanbases and pretty wealthy and influential ownerships and potentially breaking Canadian business laws (since we do not know the exact term of the waiver and for all that FIFA would allow the CSA to force them into the CPL there is no guarantees Canadian laws will) will actually improve things...

Counter proposal: on one hand the CSB need the national programs to actually play for it to be money to be funneled toward the CPL so players do have leverage on CSB. On the other the CSB is legally entitled to most of the money the players would wish to see spent elsewhere. So lets discount with the usual intermediary, which isn't really trusted by the players anyway and has only limited spaces to make concessions, and let the players and CSB negotiate directly on this one.

The CSA and players have nothing to bargain with and CSB won't renegotiate for free.

The CSA will have to offer them something, not the other way around. 

[dyslexic nam]

So full disclosure, I work for a government entity. During the course of my work, I constantly read accusations of gross incompetence, negligence and malicious activity by government workers. And while I am sure there are examples of each of those that could be found (like in any other large workplace) I can assure you that the vast majority of people I work with work hard and try to do their best to make responsible use of public resources. Nobody lights piles of money on fire, nobody holds drunken parties at the public expense, and nobody actively tries to erode public trust by make systems and processes less efficient. Generally speaking, the public does not understand the complexity of many of the challenges that face large institutions, established systems, or processes with diverse stakeholders and interest sets.

With all that said, I find it really interesting to see how frequently people are willing to simply treat the claims of the players as if they are establish fact, and to assume that the one side of the story they have presented is a complete and unbiased account of the truth.  I am in no way saying that the deal with CSB should not be more transparent or that it could not be renegotiated in light of the very player resistance that is happening. But to assume that you were getting a full and factual account of things from the people that are on one side of the bargaining table is extremely naïve. 

[dyslexic nam]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

The CSA and players have nothing to bargain with and CSB won't renegotiate for free.

The CSA will have to offer them something, not the other way around. 

Negative public will and backlash could be a very real factor in convincing CSB to come back to the table to renegotiate terms.   No one is better off having this BS continue (regardless of where the blame lies).  

[VinceA]

 

[Wippersuna]

CSA seems like they need to be more transparent but assuming that the CSB can renegotiate a contract without knowing the details of where the money is going might also be naive. I imagine they made a lot more than they were anticipating in light of making the World Cup but establishing a league (and League 1 structure) during Covid also doubtlessly cost a lot more than anticipated. To vilify an organization for negotiating a deal seems weird especially in light of things like Valours financials and Edmonton folding demonstrating that the CPL owners aren’t coming out of this flush with cash. Also because it was just posted, I highly doubt the CSB would negotiate a $0 Nike deal so hey maybe they’re not all bad. 
 

As a relatively new soccer fan (mainly started watching because of the CPL) this whole thing just makes me want to not support the national teams.

[Obinna]

53 minutes ago, Shway said:

I have a crazy idea.......

The CSA and the CSB come back to the table. In those conversations it goes like this:
- the CSA says we need to renegotiate the deal we signed with you, and we have a special offer. 
- the CSA says we will not sanction the MLS Clubs to play in MLS, and have the backing from Concacaf & FIFA.
- the CSA says under this pretence the existing deal will need to be renegotiated and the room opens up to the three big honchos (TFC, Caps, CFM) to join the league and make CSB even more lucrative. 

At this point, this is the only way I see the CSB would go back to the table. Otherwise they can't be strong armed.

Hahahaha.....this is your ultimate fantasy

 

Yes, I suppose the CSA could somehow use the sanctioning card, but I wouldn't trust Bontis or anyone else at the CSA to negotiate the deal. They need someone far more skilled to do that, or at least someone who has not proven to be incompetent. This is the part that worries me most. No change at the CSA and no sign of change on the horizon. To make it worse, I don't think this mythical unicorn exists (aka a skilled negotiator with a soccer background who is willing to jump into this frying pan on a volunterary basis)

I heard the NFP last night. The lack of transpancy in the financial statement relative to USSF is very concerning. We should start there, it's something we collectively (fans, media, players) can push for. At lesst that's a starting point to know where we are at. If we truly have no money (which I suspect) then maybe we can finally be realistic about that reality, but until there is transparency there won't be trust and we won't be pulling in the same direction. I would really like to think money is not getting syphoned off to something unecessary, or worse, some corrupt pocket lining, but let us put that to bed, know what I mean? That way, we can build some good faith and work together. The CSA can say look players, we showed you we don't have it, we are sorry the deal is putting us in this spot, what can we do about it? Maybe even the players would directly pressure the CSB to re-negotiate at that point. It would get ugly, but maybe it would go somewhere? Right now this all feels like a road to nowhere. Minor "excuse the pun" digs at the CPL are not going to get the attention of the CSB so long as they are veiled. Be direct and say to the CSB we need a better deal for Canadian Soccer that also works for the CPL, let's makr it happen. Challenge them publiclly. They cannot get to that stage until we know the CSA has clean hands.

[David Pinto]

24 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am curious what your sources are for this info.   

Which part? 

It was 20 years from signing the deal: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mens-womens-national-teams-call-for-investigation-into-canada-soccers-governance/sn-amp/

 

CPL commissioner being head of CSB: https://canpl.ca/article/mark-noonan-named-cpl-commissioner-and-ceo-of-canadian-soccer-business

People can think this deal was incompetence, corruption or whatever they think but to me the lack of formal approval, not opening the books and entities being far too close make me believe it is corruption. 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

I have a crazy idea.......

The CSA and the CSB come back to the table. In those conversations it goes like this:
- the CSA says we need to renegotiate the deal we signed with you, and we have a special offer. 
- the CSA says we will not sanction the MLS Clubs to play in MLS, and have the backing from Concacaf & FIFA.
- the CSA says under this pretence the existing deal will need to be renegotiated and the room opens up to the three big honchos (TFC, Caps, CFM) to join the league and make CSB even more lucrative. 

At this point, this is the only way I see the CSB would go back to the table. Otherwise they can't be strong armed.

"In order to get more money from a private organization, we're going to interfere in the business of other private organizations."  Can't see how that doesn't result in a massive lawsuit.

[dyslexic nam]

5 minutes ago, David Pinto said:

Which part? 

It was 20 years from signing the deal: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/mens-womens-national-teams-call-for-investigation-into-canada-soccers-governance/sn-amp/

 

CPL commissioner being head of CSB: https://canpl.ca/article/mark-noonan-named-cpl-commissioner-and-ceo-of-canadian-soccer-business

People can think this deal was incompetence, corruption or whatever they think but to me the lack of formal approval, not opening the books and entities being far too close make me believe it is corruption. 

I have always wondered about the 10 year extension provisions.  I have been involved in negotiating contracts and agreements and it would be extremely odd for one party to agree to a 10 year extension clause that would be decided at the sole discretion of one of the two parties.   The CSA has never openly outlined the nature of the contract (which is part of the problem) so it is hard to know if this claim is true.  

The CPL commissioner being the head of CSB isn’t a big controversy to me. 

The main part of the claim I was wondering about was the idea that “no formal approval was ever given”.  That is a pretty big claim and requires some explanation.    

 

[Watchmen]

27 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I can assure you that the vast majority of people I work with work hard and try to do their best to make responsible use of public resources. Nobody lights piles of money on fire, nobody holds drunken parties at the public expense, and nobody actively tries to erode public trust by make systems and processes less efficient.

I notice that you've conveniently left out "Nobody spends large quantities of public money on Canada soccer player cards."  I'm on to you! 😉