The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[narduch]

42 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

Part of the problem is no one knows where the money is so they don't trust there isn't enough money to go around. Even on the sheet Sinclair showed it has admin+meetings outweighed the national teams last year and the CSA banking 5 million last year. A little transparency would go a very long way here.... unless they don't want to show something

The fact the the CSA hasn't shared the books with the players yet makes me think they are hiding something.

A non-profit should not be able to hide this information from its own stakeholders.

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, grigorio said:

The deal sucks in retrospect but if it wasn’t for that Phonzie goal at BMO, or if Larin missed his penalty in the first match at home to Honduras the narrative instead might be something like….

”I’m not sure how much longer these CPL owners can hold out for without bringing in more revenue. Thank goodness they’re committed to the league and the sport and haven’t folded up shop already!”

 

It’s not a coin where one side says philanthropic hero and the other says greedy bastard. 

The league and their teams are a private business.  Let them sink or swim on their own.  I am not against the CPL but the owners of the the teams should be using their money, not looking for a handout on the backs of others.

This is an agreement between the CSA and CSB.  The players never agreed to these terms, they are a separate entity.  Why weren't they included in the discussions?  Yet the mens and womens squads are the ones directly affected.

It is socialism for the owners, capitalism for the players.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

I’m all for the players striking until they get a fair agreement. Even if it takes months or they miss out on Nations League/Gold Cup. 
 

I don’t think the minor league comment was directed at the players in the CPL. More towards the owners, who are in bed with CSB.  They are the fugaises here and are only out to line their pockets. 

They didn't direct the comment to an entity, or the CSB, or to businessmen. They dissed the league.

Really the men are proving to be poorly advised and lacking in initiative (they only put out a statement after the women), common sense and respect.

[narduch]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

They didn't direct the comment to an entity, or the CSB, or to businessmen. They dissed the league.

Really the men are proving to be poorly advised and lacking in initiative (they only put out a statement after the women), common sense and respect.

Think the men's players may have been duped by playing in the World Cup in good faith.

I'm surprised that they player imaging rights is still an issue. I figured with the Larin Osmow's commercial and the Gatorade commercial it was all hammered out.

[Ottawafan]

4 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

They didn't direct the comment to an entity, or the CSB, or to businessmen. They dissed the league.

Really the men are proving to be poorly advised and lacking in initiative (they only put out a statement after the women), common sense and respect.

The comment wasn't necessary and was directed more to the owners of the teams who are also knee deep in the CSB.  The fact remains the players on both NT's are getting the shaft for an agreement they had no say in.  This is now their voice, by sitting out games.  And rightfully so.

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

Think the men's players may have been duped by playing in the World Cup in good faith.

I'm surprised that they player imaging rights is still an issue. I figured with the Larin Osmow's commercial and the Gatorade commercial it was all hammered out.

I don't think they were duped; they had no leverage and they all wanted to go to the World Cup.  So they had to bite the bullet and delay getting into negotiations over the issues.  Now they have the leverage, so they should use it appropriately. 

[Gian-Luca]

53 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

Part of the problem is no one knows where the money is so they don't trust there isn't enough money to go around. Even on the sheet Sinclair showed it has admin+meetings outweighed the national teams last year and the CSA banking 5 million last year. A little transparency would go a very long way here.... unless they don't want to show something

I think you must be misreading the sheet in question as it shows that the CSA admin costs were lower than either the men's or women's team expenses in 2021 and were dwarfed by them if you were to combine the expenses for both (leaving aside all of the Olympic funding the women must have received from elsewhere than the CSA). It does show that CSA admin costs outweighed either national team program individually (but not combined) in 2020, but we don't really need detailed transparency to figure out that one, it was (as 2021 was in different ways) an anomaly year due to the pandemic lockdowns. The teams were shut down for most of the year but presumably the CSA staff got paid salaries & so forth. If anything, I'm curious as to how it is the CSA admin costs actually decreased in 2021 versus 2020 (although I'm not complaining about the fact that their admin costs have decreased.

Based on the 2020 data, I'm assuming the CSA would have been significantly in the hole after 2020 given the reduction or elimination of some of their revenue sources in 2020, were it not for the amount (even if reduced) that the CSB deal provided for them (which I'm assuming was more than $179,593). Ironically, Sinclair's tweet thus provides evidence against her own cause by indicating that there actually has been some benefit to the CSB deal.

[Ivan]

15 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

The league and their teams are a private business.  Let them sink or swim on their own.  I am not against the CPL but the owners of the the teams should be using their money, not looking for a handout on the backs of others.

This is an agreement between the CSA and CSB.  The players never agreed to these terms, they are a separate entity.  Why weren't they included in the discussions?  Yet the mens and womens squads are the ones directly affected.

It is socialism for the owners, capitalism for the players.  

The CSA made the deal with the CSB because they thought it would be enough to sustainably run their programs (I would think). 

You are correct.  The league is a private business run by the owners, which are basically the CSB.  Where are they looking for handouts, and at whose backs?  Don't forget, they funded the league for two years with no revenue during the pandemic.  And the fact that Edmonton folded and we have the Valour owner whining about a needed attendance increase indicates they are not "lining their pockets" as some posters have alluded to.

[Ivan]

Whatever the reason, and whoever's fault this is, it makes no sense to me.

The CSA should have more money than its ever had given the WC bonus money (which they have already said is not going to the CSB, and no matter what percentage is going to the players) plus well attended WCQ games in 2022.  Especially after showing a $5 million profit in 2021.

It just makes no sense.

[Alex]

Also, I bought a really nice Canada baseball cap, a touque and my sons both got Davies jerseys from sportChek a couple months ago! That’s some decent coin for them lol. In all seriousness, never before have I seen Canada gear on shelves, they even sold World Cup watch party sets online! I’m guessing hundreds of thousands of dollars was made here. 

[phil03]

18 minutes ago, Ivan said:

The CSA made the deal with the CSB because they thought it would be enough to sustainably run their programs (I would think). 

You are correct.  The league is a private business run by the owners, which are basically the CSB.  Where are they looking for handouts, and at whose backs?  Don't forget, they funded the league for two years with no revenue during the pandemic.  And the fact that Edmonton folded and we have the Valour owner whining about a needed attendance increase indicates they are not "lining their pockets" as some posters have alluded to.

On the other hand, if their finances really aren't that great it does beg the question: why don't they just go ''you want to see our books? Sure, see for yourselves that we aren't making big profits with this!'' when the players asked.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Ivan said:

The CSA made the deal with the CSB because they thought it would be enough to sustainably run their programs (I would think). 

You are correct.  The league is a private business run by the owners, which are basically the CSB.  Where are they looking for handouts, and at whose backs?  Don't forget, they funded the league for two years with no revenue during the pandemic.  And the fact that Edmonton folded and we have the Valour owner whining about a needed attendance increase indicates they are not "lining their pockets" as some posters have alluded to.

There's more: 

-the CSB deal facilitated the league, without which there would be no World Cup in Canada. The league was a necessary factor in our participation in the joint bid.

-the CSB deal also enabled the funds from MediaPro to enter into the Canadian soccer landscape. While we don't know much about how the money is spent, distributed, overall and less so annually, there had to be a business entity to engage that sponsorship.

-MediaPro sets up OneSoccer, in the CSB umbrella, but they don't just focus on the CPL. In fact, they are now the leading media outlet for Canadian soccer news and cover the NTs well, men and women. How the players think things would be without that, in terms of public image, individual sponsorship possibilities, growing the game, I don't know.

-If it weren't for OneSoccer, footie coverage in Canada would still be piecemeal and governed by half-assed journalists writing the occasional article. Awareness and sympathy for the players' cause, men and women, has been enhance by entities run by the CSB.

-ditto all other sponsorship deals the CPL has, Macron, overall partners--you can't just receive money as an entity without some model of commercial incorporation.

-the CSB owns, or part-owns (Québec) and is driving the League One model across the country. They are not only facilitating pro soccer for about 150 Canadians who otherwise might not have that opportunity, but the dream of pro soccer for hundreds more.

League One includes women's teams: a structure owned and run overall by CSB has ensured equity in the model in its newest iteration, BC, where no team can enter without both women and men's teams. Are the women also ignoring that grassroots structure and those players? Do they think everyone has to skip off to NCAA like most of them?

-CPL/CSB has finally recognised the Players Association, and has raised the minimum salary in the midst of unfavourable conditions for ticket sales. While this took too long, it proves there is an ultimate recognition of working conditions and a will to dialogue with pro players. The CSA in fact has far more monetary negotiations pending and unresolved with the NT players than CSB does with CPL players.

-the CPL with CSB support is creating soccer infrastructure across the country. We now have venues where matches can be played we did not have before, Langford, Langley, Calgary, the GTA, Halifax. While the women vilify CSB, they ignore that Matheson, Sinclair have openly stated they'd likely benefit from CPL stadiums for the women's league. So how does that figure, starting a women's pro league benefiting from what the CPL is building, but thinking it just comes gifted?

-will the men also criticise the CSA for supporting a women's for-profit minor league when that comes along?

-the CPL has radically grown the support structure around pro soccer, such as with reffing, disciplinary committees, soccer administrators, soccer marketing people, the rise of new player agents. 

All these are arguments to be made apart from the obvious argument than in 4 years, with only one season fully without the pandemic's effects, the league has already contributed to the CMNT.

If the CSA signed a bad deal, I do think they should be trying to renegotiate it. This is fair, if you had a crappy mortgage deal you'd do the same. It is obviously scandalous they are cutting back youth camps, programmes, home friendlies, when all are necessary. But there is another side to the story.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Copes]

I'm honestly not with the players here, outside of a few select points. 

But the CSA should absolutely be investing in the infrastructure required to grow the game coast to coast. Given that, 5 years ago and many years before that, we did not have a D1 professional league and the stadiums, coaches, ref training that goes with it... that is the INFRASTRUCTURE to GROW THE GAME that I want to see. The CPL is more important to Canada Soccer (long term) IMO than anything that has happened in the recent past, including the 2022 World Cup performance. Yes... we had more eyeballs on Canada playing soccer in Qatar than probably every CPL match combined. But that is a once-every-four-years tournament that will spark interest. The CPL and the MLS are what keeps that interest alive in the interim. 

CSB was a gamble to support the program before the program took off. It was to help build our D1 professional league. I'm fine with the players negotiating as best they can but as long as they continue to take potshots at CPL and the growth of the game, it reeks of an "I got mine" attitude. They carved their own path without CPL, and all the respect in the world for them doing so, but we will never step up our game as a soccer nation without a D1 domestic league and that will take time (and investment) to build. And at the end of the day, no one is holding a gun to their head forcing them to play for the National Team. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Copes

[Ottawafan]

40 minutes ago, Ivan said:

The CSA made the deal with the CSB because they thought it would be enough to sustainably run their programs (I would think). 

You are correct.  The league is a private business run by the owners, which are basically the CSB.  Where are they looking for handouts, and at whose backs?  Don't forget, they funded the league for two years with no revenue during the pandemic.  And the fact that Edmonton folded and we have the Valour owner whining about a needed attendance increase indicates they are not "lining their pockets" as some posters have alluded to.

The CSA signed this agreement, the players didn't.  They are contractors, not employees of the CSA.  Players have every right through negotiations to set their terms of employment.  The CSA can't claim they have no money while at the same time using its revenues to send to the CSB.  It isn't on the players to grow the game financially in Canada only to watch those dollars being filtered outside of the program to fund a private business.

[Vasi]

I don't understand why people are getting in to a tizzy about the minor league comment. Is it important yes. But it is a minor league. Lets call an apple and apple.

The MLS is also a minor league compared to most world leagues. Will the CPL ever grow in to a major league? NO it wont. It cant. That's ok.  

This league would not exist without the success of the men's and women's teams. The money that we get from sponsors should be reinvested in the Nat teams and not in to a for profit league tat will for ever be a feeder league for the MLS.  

I don't think that people get it, but if we don't invest in a national training center or u 15 to u 21 teams we will lose dule nats. No matter how much you invest in the CPL it wont help up become competitive at the world stage. If you do you are delusional.  

The next star CB for 2026 is not comin out of the CPL, but will probably be a mls or euro based prospect. 

 

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

7 minutes ago, Vasi said:

I don't understand why people are getting in to a tizzy about the minor league comment. Is it important yes. But it is a minor league. Lets call an apple and apple.

The MLS is also a minor league compared to most world leagues. Will the CPL ever grow in to a major league? NO it wont. It cant. That's ok.  

This league would not exist without the success of the men's and women's teams. The money that we get from sponsors should be reinvested in the Nat teams and not in to a for profit league tat will for ever be a feeder league for the MLS.  

I don't think that people get it, but if we don't invest in a national training center or u 15 to u 21 teams we will lose dule nats. No matter how much you invest in the CPL it wont help up become competitive at the world stage. If you do you are delusional.  

The next star CB for 2026 is not comin out of the CPL, but will probably be a mls or euro based prospect. 

 

 

 

I disagree with lots here but will focus on a couple of statements. 

“No matter how much you invest in the CPL it wont help up become competitive at the world stage.”

- I have no idea how you can believe this.  No one is saying a player will jump directly from CPL to the national team as a high impact player, but the presence of a strong D1 league in this country will absolutely help us be competitive.  It is ridiculous to think otherwise.  Hundreds of players will pass through the league in the next few years.  There is no way you can confidently proclaim that couldn’t possibly help build depth in our national-level player pool over time.   

“The next star CB for 2026 is not comin out of the CPL, but will probably be a mls or euro based prospect.”

- you have no idea if this is true.  Some young CB prospect could easily be uncovered in CPL.  The league is now moving players to MLS and European leagues so it is 100% plausible that future NT players could get their pro start in CPL.  And while that may not happen for 2026, it can absolutely happen in the future.  

[Shway]

32 minutes ago, Vasi said:

This league would not exist without the success of the men's and women's teams.
 

wtf. What success was there in 2018-2019?

 

32 minutes ago, Vasi said:

The money that we get from sponsors should be reinvested in the Nat teams and not in to a for profit league tat will for ever be a feeder league for the MLS.  

This could change, especially with MLS Canadian markets affecting the CPL - more on that.

32 minutes ago, Vasi said:

I don't think that people get it, but if we don't invest in a national training center or u 15 to u 21 teams we will lose dule nats. No matter how much you invest in the CPL it wont help up become competitive at the world stage. If you do you are delusional. 

The two aren’t mutually exclusive. But actually need to happen in parallel.

National team camps are sporadic events, we need professional clubs to give guys like Pepple, Coupland, Wright, and more …an opportunity to progress to the national team. 

32 minutes ago, Vasi said:

The next star CB for 2026 is not comin out of the CPL, but will probably be a mls or euro based prospect. 

Hypothetical. 
Could come out of nowhere like David, Kennedy, Cornelius, Ugbo,….

Make it all make sense.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Shway

[Ottawafan]

26 minutes ago, Vasi said:

I don't understand why people are getting in to a tizzy about the minor league comment. Is it important yes. But it is a minor league. Lets call an apple and apple.

The MLS is also a minor league compared to most world leagues. Will the CPL ever grow in to a major league? NO it wont. It cant. That's ok.  

This league would not exist without the success of the men's and women's teams. The money that we get from sponsors should be reinvested in the Nat teams and not in to a for profit league tat will for ever be a feeder league for the MLS.  

I don't think that people get it, but if we don't invest in a national training center or u 15 to u 21 teams we will lose dule nats. No matter how much you invest in the CPL it wont help up become competitive at the world stage. If you do you are delusional.  

The next star CB for 2026 is not comin out of the CPL, but will probably be a mls or euro based prospect. 

 

 

 

I agree people are getting too worked up over the minor league comment. The rest of your comments… let’s let the league play out before we determine what it is or will be. 

[Ruud]

10 hours ago, Obinna said:

I don't know what the solution is, nor do I know all the details, but it seems to me there just isn't enough money to make everyone happy. Maybe the CSA can get more creative with how to manage the little money they have given the CSB deal and pay equity commitments (assuming that's a factor), but there's a limit to how much the CSA can cut. Staff apparently aren't well paid according to Wheeler and they aren't going to work for free. Are the CSB going to mercy-negotiate with the CSA to put them out of their misery? I find it hard to imagine. Are the players going to carry through with threats not to play in Nations League or SheBelieves cup? Maybe. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face, but it's the only leverage they have in the situation. Something tells me the men will get their bluff called and something else tells me Bontis is going to harder to remove than we think. Seems like he made a deal that put the CSA in this pickle to begin with. I am haply the CanPL exists and I have no issue with CSB making a deal with the CSA, I think I have an issue with the fact they negotiated a shitty deal, were not transparent about it, and arent acknowledging how bad the deal is (i.e. taking responsibility for the situation). I don't think CSB is morally obligated to give the CSA a better deal, even though I wish they would. I don't think business works that way.

+1.  Not enough money to pay out current and past obligations and no way to get CSB back to negotiating table 

 

[Califax]

I think the minor league comment is significant - not because it’s malicious - but because these players are so tunnel vision on money and getting a pound of flesh from the CSA that they didn’t consider whether it was appropriate. 

It makes our national league look like an afterthought. In the long term, it’s more important than anything or anyone. 
 

 

[Colonel Green]

26 minutes ago, Califax said:

I think the minor league comment is significant - not because it’s malicious - but because these players are so tunnel vision on money and getting a pound of flesh from the CSA that they didn’t consider whether it was appropriate. 

If the national team's operating budget is getting cut by half as a result of a deal to funnel money to the CPL, it should be obvious why the national team isn't a fan of that.

Let alone the women, who obviously don't benefit from a men's pro league at all.

[Shway]

1 minute ago, Ruud said:

+1.  Not enough money to pay out current and past obligations and no way to get CSB back to negotiating table 

 

I have a crazy idea.......

The CSA and the CSB come back to the table. In those conversations it goes like this:
- the CSA says we need to renegotiate the deal we signed with you, and we have a special offer. 
- the CSA says we will not sanction the MLS Clubs to play in MLS, and have the backing from Concacaf & FIFA.
- the CSA says under this pretence the existing deal will need to be renegotiated and the room opens up to the three big honchos (TFC, Caps, CFM) to join the league and make CSB even more lucrative. 

At this point, this is the only way I see the CSB would go back to the table. Otherwise they can't be strong armed.

[Ottawafan]

20 minutes ago, Califax said:

I think the minor league comment is significant - not because it’s malicious - but because these players are so tunnel vision on money and getting a pound of flesh from the CSA that they didn’t consider whether it was appropriate. 

It makes our national league look like an afterthought. In the long term, it’s more important than anything or anyone. 
 

 

I think the players aren't happy with their efforts in leading the NT's to success only to see the fruits be distributed to private business owners.  Some of those owners are worth 9 figures or backed by a club worth over a billion dollars.  

[Canuckia]

2 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

If the national team's operating budget is getting cut by half as a result of a deal to funnel money to the CPL, it should be obvious why the national team isn't a fan of that.

Let alone the women, who obviously don't benefit from a men's pro league at all.

 

2 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

If the national team's operating budget is getting cut by half as a result of a deal to funnel money to the CPL, it should be obvious why the national team isn't a fan of that.

Let alone the women, who obviously don't benefit from a men's pro league at all.

Sure. But  rip on the contract, not the league. I thought the women's statement was much better once again.

[Shway]

4 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

If the national team's operating budget is getting cut by half as a result of a deal to funnel money to the CPL, it should be obvious why the national team isn't a fan of that.

Let alone the women, who obviously don't benefit from a men's pro league at all.

They are separate budgets. The CSB can't dictate the money for the CSA. The CSB provides 3M annually to the CSA - nothing changes. 

Why the CSA is cutting it is probably due to the deal they signed with the men and women to get more money, and more than likely misuse of funds.