The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

I would be interested to see more on the credit CPL is getting for the L1s. I haven't stumbled across any of that yet. Any chance you could you link me to the conversation?

Maybe I misunderstood your post discussing the CPL owners and then L1. But, there's a (short) discussion somewhere else about if L1 players at the WC count as "CPL developed" since CSB has a hand in both.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

By effectively taking over the League 1 tier, it looked like Bob Young, Scott Mitchell and CanPL/CSB had anything domestic sanctioned as professional soccer by the CSA completely stitched up on both the men's and women's side off into the future. The plan with CSB was to use both CMNT and CWNT marketing revenues to help keep that afloat out to 2038 with a women's pro league only happening eventually some time off into the future. When Sinclair and Matheson say things like "we don't need to wait", "it's time" and "by women for women" they are being about as subtle as a sledgehammer in their criticism of that strategy.

[SF]

Just watched the TSN piece with DeGuzman and Kilbane.  I thought Julian's comments were measured and thoughtful. 

I also think that our players. as Kilbane intimated, need to be commended for playing through all of this turmoil.

In the end, I don't see how this relationship is repaired with the current CSA leadership.  There is such a fundamental loss of trust that there needs to be a reset.  I think it will take an act of courage from the existing CSA leadership to recognize their own failings and, frankly, I am not optimistic.

This is really difficult to watch as a supporter of the program.

 

[Ansem]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

CanPL has done diddlysquat so far about launching a women's pro league despite being handed CWNT marketing revenues by Victor Montagliani when CSB was formed but have made vague statements about doing it eventually.

According to Duane, you're wrong
https://24thminute.substack.com/p/a-league-of-good-intentions

 

Here’s the thing: CSB and CanPL has been working on a women’s league proposal. They haven’t been moving as quickly as I, or others, would like, but they have been. They have investigated the very things that Matheson is talking about.

Additionally, as I’ve been told a couple times this week, the resistance to the women’s project mostly left the league office this year. Draw your own conclusions as to why, but I’m told that there is far more interest in a women’s league now than there was at this time last year.

There are people at the league office who have been working very hard at the project, in fact. For a lot longer than the 6-months that Matheson said her team has been. Those people are feeling a little discouraged today by an announcement that they see as premature and possibly harmful, I’m told.

 

[Ansem]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I'm not going to follow Ozzie down that path, but I do think people need to stop giving the CPL credit for things the L1s are doing. They've largely been set up and run independently of anything CPL related. 

CSB actually helped BCL1 get launched who also happens to have both men and women. They've set up League 1 Canada to bring some coherence/cooperation between the 3 leagues with the women having their first "Memorial Cup" tournament.

Saying they've been completely hands off isn't true either.

[Watchmen]

Just now, Ansem said:

CSB actually helped BCL1 get launched who also happens to have both men and women. They've set up League 1 Canada to bring some coherence/cooperation between the 3 leagues with the women having their first "Memorial Cup" tournament.

Saying they've been completely hands off isn't true either.

How exactly did CSB help L1BC? Generally curious, as I've never heard any indication of that.

[Ansem]

19 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

How exactly did CSB help L1BC? Generally curious, as I've never heard any indication of that.

CSB/CPL were much more involved in launching the league than people realized. It's not a coincidence that the club branding and marketing is so similar to CPL - it's by design and I expect L1O and PLSQ to follow for new clubs

 

From their website

https://www.bcsoccer.net/competitions/league-1-bc/

 

Also from this article
https://culturesoccer.com/2021/02/23/lavenement-dune-nouvelle-ligue-la-bc-league-1/

The links in the text no longer work but they were from BC Soccer files but I'll translate the part of the text that's relevant
 

• This document outlines the league's marketing strategy and long-term vision. BC Soccer highlights its partnership with CSB (Canadian Soccer Business) and the CanPL whose arrival has transformed the landscape of Canadian soccer. By creating the BCL1, BC Soccer aspires to become an important player in the CanPL's mission to provide an avenue for players to reach the highest professional level while expanding the national pool. In fact, BC Soccer points to CSB's acquisition of League 1 Ontario as an example of the importance of developing players in the lower divisions to feed the CanPL. According to BC Soccer, CSB's goal is to repeat this approach across the country, which implies that BCL1 could eventually be sold to them.

• BC Soccer's approach to club naming is modeled on the CanPL's approach, where franchise names are not necessarily specific to their geographic location but rather based on the identity and history of the community. This would make it easier for clubs to move if necessary after a reasonable period of time. Clubs would need to get final approval from the league on all branding decisions for individual clubs. The document mentions that the support of the CanPL and CSB may be needed, which suggests that the partnership between the two organizations is already at an advanced stage.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The last part heavily implies that CSB/CPL might need to agree to where club moves & branding. Makes sense if you don't want to "cannibalize" markets.

That's why I don't think CPL would want a club in Laval where 2 PLSQ clubs already occupies that island - they'll go for Montreal Island most likely which is big enough to have MLS, CPL and PLSQ coexisting

I think CSB's long term plan is to own all the D3 leagues

Edited December 7, 2022 by Ansem

[Unnamed Trialist]

10 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

How exactly did CSB help L1BC? Generally curious, as I've never heard any indication of that.

I am not sure they did directly, just based on timing.

Anyways, it went like this, please correct me.

L1 Ontario and PLSQ were separate entities, with their own histories, models and management. PLSQ began in 2012, L1O a few years later. Both were recognised by the CSA, played an inter-league championship, and starting in 2018 I believe began to have their winners qualify for the Voyageurs Cup.

L1 BC, based on a similar model, was announced in autumn of 2021, with the idea of beginning this last April.

In June 2019, I believe it was, CSB gained control of League One Ontario. I don't know the financials or specifics. I believe that the president of L1O was Dino Rossi at that time. Clanachan, as CPL president, spoke of an idea of having a national L1, but that did not flesh out in any specific way.

In March 2022, think it was, CSB created League One (Canada), and then named the president of L1Ontario as the new League One president this past May.

I am not sure how CSB got control of PLSQ, what the financial deal was.  I heard that they are not officially in the system of the national League One until next season, but regardless: the three League 1s are now part of League One Canada, owned and controlled by CSB. They also have the mandate to work on developing this tier in the rest of Canada. 

The CSA not only certified L1BC, but has given its champion the right to play in the 2023 Gold Cup.

If this is the timeline, it is not clear that CSB was driving or even helping L1BC. Or at least, that the contribution comes after L1BC was conceived (obviously inspired by the two other provincial models) was not consolidated until it was basically already underway. So I would reject the idea that CSB started L1BC, the timeline is not right: they have come in afterwards as things were already underway.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am not sure how CSB got control of PLSQ, what the financial deal was.  I heard that they are not officially in the system of the national League One until next season, but regardless: the three League 1s are now part of League One Canada, owned and controlled by CSB. They also have the mandate to work on developing this tier in the rest of Canada. 

CSB doesn't own PLSQ - yet but the league is already under League 1 Canada. They will rebrand to be aligned with the "League 1" branding. I think that eventually, CSB ends up buying it which takes the financial costs of operating them off the hands of provincial bodies.

 

9 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

If this is the timeline, it is not clear that CSB was driving or even helping L1BC. Or at least, that the contribution comes after L1BC was conceived (obviously inspired by the two other provincial models) was not consolidated until it was basically already underway. So I would reject the idea that CSB started L1BC, the timeline is not right: they have come in afterwards as things were already underway.

As I mentioned above, CSB worked with BC Soccer to help with the launch. The branding is one of the most noticeable similarities between CPL and BCL1 with clubs like "Altitude" and they were mentioned in BC Soccer documents prior to the launch

[Watchmen]

39 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CSB/CPL were much more involved in launching the league than people realized. It's not a coincidence that the club branding and marketing is so similar to CPL - it's by design and I expect L1O and PLSQ to follow for new clubs

 

From their website

https://www.bcsoccer.net/competitions/league-1-bc/

 

Also from this article
https://culturesoccer.com/2021/02/23/lavenement-dune-nouvelle-ligue-la-bc-league-1/

The links in the text no longer work but they were from BC Soccer files but I'll translate the part of the text that's relevant
 

• This document outlines the league's marketing strategy and long-term vision. BC Soccer highlights its partnership with CSB (Canadian Soccer Business) and the CanPL whose arrival has transformed the landscape of Canadian soccer. By creating the BCL1, BC Soccer aspires to become an important player in the CanPL's mission to provide an avenue for players to reach the highest professional level while expanding the national pool. In fact, BC Soccer points to CSB's acquisition of League 1 Ontario as an example of the importance of developing players in the lower divisions to feed the CanPL. According to BC Soccer, CSB's goal is to repeat this approach across the country, which implies that BCL1 could eventually be sold to them.

• BC Soccer's approach to club naming is modeled on the CanPL's approach, where franchise names are not necessarily specific to their geographic location but rather based on the identity and history of the community. This would make it easier for clubs to move if necessary after a reasonable period of time. Clubs would need to get final approval from the league on all branding decisions for individual clubs. The document mentions that the support of the CanPL and CSB may be needed, which suggests that the partnership between the two organizations is already at an advanced stage.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The last part heavily implies that CSB/CPL might need to agree to where club moves & branding. Makes sense if you don't want to "cannibalize" markets.

That's why I don't think CPL would want a club in Laval where 2 PLSQ clubs already occupies that island - they'll go for Montreal Island most likely which is big enough to have MLS, CPL and PLSQ coexisting

I think CSB's long term plan is to own all the D3 leagues

Well, it's still pretty vague and I'd say the heavy lifting was probably done by BC Soccer. I don't know if I'd say CSB forced them in to having a women's league either. But yeah, there was at least some involvement from CSB in some capacity.

[Unnamed Trialist]

14 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CSB doesn't own PLSQ - yet but the league is already under League 1 Canada. They will rebrand to be aligned with the "League 1" branding. I think that eventually, CSB ends up buying it which takes the financial costs of operating them off the hands of provincial bodies.

 

As I mentioned above, CSB worked with BC Soccer to help with the launch. The branding is one of the most noticeable similarities between CPL and BCL1 with clubs like "Altitude" and they were mentioned in BC Soccer documents prior to the launch

Thanks for the details on PLSQ, so what exactly is the relationship? 

Anyways, we cannot make after the fact assumptions about L1BC.

Now it is all painted in the light of CSB and what you say about the CPL inspiring names, but the history is not that precisely.

BC Soccer had already tried to set it up in the mid 2010s, then announced in 2019, when CPL was just starting and when the CSB was as well, that they would work towards 2021. The bidding process was slow, there was vetting, they approved clubs and announced them in fall 2021. The branding is even later than that, and it seems there is a CPL inspiration in terms of names, but it is not exactly that. 3 of the starting 7 retain their former names (Victoria Highlanders, Whitecaps, TSS Rovers), three are university affiliates that take names related to their respective universities (Varsity, Unity which is Trinity Western--not going to explain Trinitarian theology here--and Rivers, which is directly from a university named Thompson Rivers, current U-Sports national champs).

None of those names are gratuitous, and then there is Altitude in North Vancouver, which echoes the name of the HP club Mountain United FC, formerly Vancouver now Burnaby. Of those 7, only Altitude really is using the CPL model. For next year, Harbourside in Nanaimo looks to be doing something similar.

Still, there are other major differences in L1BC that prove it does not follow a strict L1O or PLSQ model, namely so many teams being essentially spring leagues for universities. Then the Highlanders play at U Victoria though I understand they are not affiliated, and Harbourside does not seem to be directly related to Vancouver Island University in Nanaimo, but in both latter cases, there will likely be crossover in roster. 

The L1BC university connection is this strong: the two U-Sports soccer finalists were L1BC teams, TRU and UBC, they'd been playing competitive soccer since May. 

I am just point this out to demonstrate that L1BC started independently, along its own trajectory, and has ended up with a model that differs significantly from Ontario and Québec. And that while the various D3s in Canada have converged, it is an error to say CSB or even CPL were unique or even decisive driving forces for what we see at L1BC. It is more like parallel paths and then a convergence of models.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Watchmen]

17 minutes ago, Ansem said:

As I mentioned above, CSB worked with BC Soccer to help with the launch. The branding is one of the most noticeable similarities between CPL and BCL1 with clubs like "Altitude" and they were mentioned in BC Soccer documents prior to the launch

The branding is similar because both the CPL and L1BC had the same person doing it, a guy/business in BC. I don't think that's CSB related, as he works for BC Soccer.

[Ansem]

14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Thanks for the details on PLSQ, so what exactly is the relationship? 

It's definitely a partnership for now but buying the league makes sense. Having all those leagues in their portfolio means that for better or worse, CSB would have much more control over players movements, contracts over a much larger territory.

I might not be great at explaining this very well but I know there was a lot of talks in Quebec about clubs being able to take players from PLSQ for virtually nothing due to the way the league & Soccer Quebec are structured and on the legal side of it. You'd have to expect CSB to tackle that angle.

Hence my comment for "better or worse" because the goal is "control"

14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

BC Soccer had already tried to set it up in the mid 2010s, then announced in 2019, when CPL was just starting and when the CSB was as well, that they would work towards 2021.

 

14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I am just point this out to suggest they started in their own point, along their own trajectory, and have converged, but it is an error to say CSB or even CPL are driving forces for what we see at L1BC. It is more a parallel and then a posteriori convergence of models.

This paragraph below from the French article is based on the BC Soccer manual that was online at the time prior to L1BC launching. It doesn't mean CPL/CSB built the league but they were definitely involved prior to launch.

• This document outlines the league's marketing strategy and long-term vision. BC Soccer highlights its partnership with CSB (Canadian Soccer Business) and the CanPL whose arrival has transformed the landscape of Canadian soccer. By creating the BCL1, BC Soccer aspires to become an important player in the CanPL's mission to provide an avenue for players to reach the highest professional level while expanding the national pool. In fact, BC Soccer points to CSB's acquisition of League 1 Ontario as an example of the importance of developing players in the lower divisions to feed the CanPL. According to BC Soccer, CSB's goal is to repeat this approach across the country, which implies that BCL1 could eventually be sold to them.

Last paragraph

• The announcement of the inaugural season of the new league in British Columbia appears imminent. The partnership between CSB/CanPL should be viewed positively as the future of Canadian soccer is one of collaboration, not division. The creation of this league represents a giant step forward for Western Canadian soccer as it could motivate the Prairie provinces to follow suit which would be beneficial if CSB ultimately decides to acquire these leagues. We are on the verge of a complete and functional pyramid under the umbrella of Canadian Soccer Business.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Ansem

[Unnamed Trialist]

Just now, Ansem said:

It's definitely a partnership for now

 

 

This paragraph below from the French article is based on the BC Soccer manual that was online at the time prior to L1BC launching. It doesn't mean CPL/CSB built the league but they were definitely involved prior to launch.

• This document outlines the league's marketing strategy and long-term vision. BC Soccer highlights its partnership with CSB (Canadian Soccer Business) and the CanPL whose arrival has transformed the landscape of Canadian soccer. By creating the BCL1, BC Soccer aspires to become an important player in the CanPL's mission to provide an avenue for players to reach the highest professional level while expanding the national pool. In fact, BC Soccer points to CSB's acquisition of League 1 Ontario as an example of the importance of developing players in the lower divisions to feed the CanPL. According to BC Soccer, CSB's goal is to repeat this approach across the country, which implies that BCL1 could eventually be sold to them.

Last paragraph

• The announcement of the inaugural season of the new league in British Columbia appears imminent. The partnership between CSB/CanPL should be viewed positively as the future of Canadian soccer is one of collaboration, not division. The creation of this league represents a giant step forward for Western Canadian soccer as it could motivate the Prairie provinces to follow suit which would be beneficial if CSB ultimately decides to acquire these leagues. We are on the verge of a complete and functional pyramid under the umbrella of Canadian Soccer Business.

When was that manual written? Late 2021, early 2022? In either case, the deal is put together at the tail end of the path towards L1BC, not in the middle of the process and not at all at the beginning. And the reality of L1BC is that the model is in fact different from the longer-standing cases, which have not served as models at all: just one L1BC is an existing soccer academy.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

When was that manual written? Late 2021, early 2022? In either case, the deal is put together at the tail end of the path towards L1BC, not in the middle of the process and not at all at the beginning. And the reality of L1BC is that the model is in fact different from the longer-standing cases, which have not served as models at all: just one L1BC is an existing soccer academy.

The article was from February 2021 so before then but I don't have a specific date. CSB was involved which is fact - I can't speculate at which stage and how heavy their involvement was. It would make sense that BC Soccer would use some of the resources from CPL/CSB if it was made available to them - provincial entities aren't swimming in cash after all.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

The article was from February 2021 so before then but I don't have a specific date. CSB was involved which is fact - I can't speculate at which stage and how heavy their involvement was. It would make sense that BC Soccer would use some of the resources from CPL/CSB if it was made available to them - provincial entities aren't swimming in cash after all.

I'd assume it was along the lines of a discussion on league/ownership structure and "best practices" being used by L1O. Beyond that, I don't think I'd assume L1BC had much resources made available to them, and definitely not any cash.

[Ruud]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

According to Duane, you're wrong
https://24thminute.substack.com/p/a-league-of-good-intentions

 

Here’s the thing: CSB and CanPL has been working on a women’s league proposal. They haven’t been moving as quickly as I, or others, would like, but they have been. They have investigated the very things that Matheson is talking about.

Additionally, as I’ve been told a couple times this week, the resistance to the women’s project mostly left the league office this year. Draw your own conclusions as to why, but I’m told that there is far more interest in a women’s league now than there was at this time last year.

There are people at the league office who have been working very hard at the project, in fact. For a lot longer than the 6-months that Matheson said her team has been. Those people are feeling a little discouraged today by an announcement that they see as premature and possibly harmful, I’m told.

 

The Matheson group has a lot of good ideas and it’s coming from a place of good intentions.
 

I think this quote tells an interesting story.  In fact, what is the “good idea” proposed by Matheson?   Not clear at all.  Good intention yes but is there a good idea behind any of this ?  Canadian NT players get to be DPs?

why wouldn’t CPL teams just announce their own women’s league if they want one ?  

[ted]

1 hour ago, Ruud said:

why wouldn’t CPL teams just announce their own women’s league if they want one ?  

Because they are cautious business-types. Every step of the way they built the CanPL has been done in carefully measured steps when they have had their ducks in a row. Too slow for most of us but it has worked so far.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If they were really so cautious with their money they would never have got into domestic pro soccer in the first place. They haven't done so because men's soccer is their priority and women's soccer is only an afterthought for them, which would be fair enough if the CSB deal did not cover CWNT revenues.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

As I suspected. 

 

 

[narduch]

The latest Footy Prime interviews Bontis.

Haven't listened to it yet but apparently this iss6is discussed 

[SF]

He said that FIFA is due to transfer the money in late Q1 (March 2023) and that would likely serve as a catalyst for bringing negotiations to a close. The CSA has promised "pay equity" to the women. Sounds like the men are lukewarm about the idea, but he seems to think they'll come to the view that they have no choice but to accept the concept - citing the USA as a benchmark of sorts.

Didn't leave me overwhelmed with enthusiasm about his leadership, but maybe others will hear it differently.

As an aside, the idea that the transfer of the FIFA funds would serve as a "deadline" for something that should have been done about 2 years ago is idiotic in the extreme.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, SF said:

He said that FIFA is due to transfer the money in late Q1 (March 2023) and that would likely serve as a catalyst for bringing negotiations to a close. The CSA has promised "pay equity" to the women. Sounds like the men are lukewarm about the idea, but he seems to think they'll come to the view that they have no choice but to accept the concept - citing the USA as a benchmark of sorts.

Didn't leave me overwhelmed with enthusiasm about his leadership, but maybe others will hear it differently.

As an aside, the idea that the transfer of the FIFA funds would serve as a "deadline" for something that should have been done about 2 years ago is idiotic in the extreme.

And based on that deal, players will take their bonuses, not paid yet, and reimburse family as they see fit. 

We went to Qatar without a deal, only with CSA good will and smiling hospitality.

[Stryker911]

Just listened to the podcast. Bontis gave himself a pat on the back for getting Copa America together. He also said that he knew that Copa was a possibility, but didn't tell Herdman. So Herdman didn't know that Nations League would be part of qualifying while Bontis knew much earlier. Actually blew my mind and can't believe it!!

Honestly, he has a punch able face anytime he shows up on TV, but now also has a punch able voice just from a podcast.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Stryker911

[phil03]

2 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

Just listened to the podcast. Bontis gave himself a pat on the back for getting Copa America together. He also said that he knew that Copa was a possibility, but didn't tell Herdman. So Herdman didn't know that Nations League would be part of qualifying while Bontis knew much earlier. Actually blew my mind and can't believe it!!

Honestly, he has a punch able face anytime he shows up on TV, but now also has a punch able voice just from a podcast.

I mean, to his tiny, tiny, tiny defense its probably gonna be the next itteration of Nations League that would be a qualification so it isn't like he completely blindsided Herdman on it either.

But yeah, on a human level he basically scream ''guy who has a manager would try to drag his employee back to the office even if they are three times as productive at home because he want the control, doesn't have a life outside of professional stuff and doesn't care about their well being''.

Edited February 10, 2023 by phil03