The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Obinna]

1 minute ago, Ottawafan said:

Yes.

You hold him/them to lower standards based on prior reputation then. And like @RS says, that's how things work, which is fine and I get that. Nobody is infallible however, like he also says, so as long as that's kept in mind I think it's fine to proceed assuming Westhead's unnamed source is probably reliable as opposed to definitely being reliable. That's where I am currently at. 

 

[SpursFlu]

8 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Matthew Scianetti, Luke Wileman, Steve Caldwell and others have produced plenty of content over the last year or so covering the national team.  If TSN was in the business of denigrating their WC property and Canadian soccer, how does this fit into your conspiracy of the TSN "agenda"?  

You figure it out. I'm not your Dad

[Obinna]

17 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Matthew Scianetti, Luke Wileman, Steve Caldwell and others have produced plenty of content over the last year or so covering the national team.  If TSN was in the business of denigrating their WC property and Canadian soccer, how does this fit into your conspiracy of the TSN "agenda"?  

Not that I think there's a conspiracy afoot, but to play devil's advocate it may be that different people at TSN have their own agendas. People can even have personal agendas that run counter to others at the company. Westhead's personal agenda is to dig up dirt, because that's his job (not saying he's a bad man).

All those other people (less so Matthew) are soccer people and one (Caldwell) worked directly with the team as a coach. Their agenda is to promote team Canada.

Westhead is not a soccer guy and is just doing what he does. That doesn't mean he has a vendetta against Soccer or the CSA, but it's pretty easy to argue that Westhead is in fact denegrating TSN's world cup property with respect to the reputation and image around Soccer Canada, whether it is intentional or not.

None of the things he is doing paints us (Soccer Canada) in a postive light ahead of the World Cup. It is not his job to either, but that's kind of the point from those with a gripe over Westhead (if you know what I mean). It's just shitty he has to keep this negativity in the news cycle right before the WC - but I understand it. I just don't like it.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Obinna

[RS]

Scianitti's definitely a soccer guy. He got his start with TSN doing CFL, but cut his teeth covering TFC and other local GTA soccer back in the day.

8 minutes ago, Obinna said:

None of the things he is doing paints us (Soccer Canada) in a postive light ahead of the World Cup. It is not his job to either, but that's kind of the point from those with a gripe over Westhead (if you know what I mean).

We are not Canada Soccer. What Westhead is doing is neither positive nor negative for us, but he is holding the governing body for the sport in this country accountable on certain issues. 

[Ivan]

10 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Matthew Scianetti, Luke Wileman, Steve Caldwell and others have produced plenty of content over the last year or so covering the national team.  If TSN was in the business of denigrating their WC property and Canadian soccer, how does this fit into your conspiracy of the TSN "agenda"?  

I don't think for a second (as I hope many on here don't) that TSN is trying to denigrate soccer and its WC property.  I mean, they would be crazy to do so, correct?

I also don't think Westhead is a poor reporter.  The guy is an award-winning journalist.  He deserves his reputation.

The problem I (and probably many others on here - I hate thinking I speak for them) have is his sensationalist journalism style. I guess the good news is that soccer's profile has increased to the point where a guy like Westhead can get his clicks by writing about it.  The bad news is he is poking in holes about a sport he seemingly knows very little about (lack of details as others have pointed out) and has to resort to unnamed sources (probably disgruntled ex board members and ex players) and click bait headlines (Davies article which contained a couple sentences about his name rights position).

At least in the Davies case, he did write a follow up article when Davies seemed to reach an agreement, but kept the lines of disenchantment going by including a cryptic Tweet from Sinclair in response to the CSA acknowledging her (mind you) in Davidson's article.   

[narduch]

Journalists in general have an over-valued sense of them selves. Acting like they are some bastion of integrity and that they are so very important when its not actually true.

I respect Westhead for his body of work in his career. But its obvious that his reporting on this issue suffers a little because he is not familiar with soccer in Canada. Even if some of the stuff he reports is important.

 

[Obinna]

44 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

Like most everyone here we have friends who are casual fans. I'm in other chat groups related to other sports or other topics. They only mention of the CMNT is this crap. To the unenlightened they take this crap at face value. Of course I can take a few minutes to completely dismantle the narrative because I'm informed but I can't be everywhere. TSN knows that 99% of the public don't really know the full picture. People don't know who Junior Hoilett and Liam Millar are but they "know" the CSA are trying to steal money from Alphonso Davies and rip off the players. They don't understand what's really going on here with TSN, MLSE, CPL, Mediapro or that these are just regular natural negotiations that are bound to occur. I was talking to a group of friends last night and when I told them many national teams including England donate their pay to charity.. it was like, no way in hell! Wait a few minutes for Google to kick in and then radio silence. TSN know what they're doing here. If you really want to go on about this topic  which really doesn't need so much airtime, why not have someone to push back or to present another perspective? Of course they won't, because they have an agenda

I don't generally push back on your posts, because I appreciate your propensity to question everything and not blindly accept narratives on their face, but I will push back on a couple of things here, because I want to be fair:

TSN may not actually know what they are doing here. In my experience, even at mid-sized organizations it can be very difficult to get everyone pulling in the same direction, let alone at a large organization. I know a guy who worked at Shell who described them as a big dumb animal with people pulling in different directions. The phrase "the hands don't know what the feet are doing" may apply here with TSN. They are a big organization and potentially there are different people with different agendas pulling in different directions.

 

[RS]

5 minutes ago, Ivan said:

I don't think for a second (as I hope many on here don't) that TSN is trying to denigrate soccer and its WC property.  I mean, they would be crazy to do so, correct?

I also don't think Westhead is a poor reporter.  The guy is an award-winning journalist.  He deserves his reputation.

The problem I (and probably many others on here - I hate thinking I speak for them) have is his sensationalist journalism style. I guess the good news is that soccer's profile has increased to the point where a guy like Westhead can get his clicks by writing about it.  The bad news is he is poking in holes about a sport he seemingly knows very little about (lack of details as others have pointed out) and has to resort to unnamed sources (probably disgruntled ex board members and ex players) and click bait headlines (Davies article which contained a couple sentences about his name rights position).

At least in the Davies case, he did write a follow up article when Davies seemed to reach an agreement, but kept the lines of disenchantment going by including a cryptic Tweet from Sinclair in response to the CSA acknowledging her (mind you) in Davidson's article.   

His style is definitely more "showy" than someone like Davidson, for instance. No argument there, although I think the nature of what they're reporting leads to those different styles.

I will nitpick the last bit of your post, though. The Sinclair tweet was actually in response to Westhead's latest story (in which she was directly referenced by his source), not the other way around.

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, RS said:

Scianitti's definitely a soccer guy. He got his start with TSN doing CFL, but cut his teeth covering TFC and other local GTA soccer back in the day.

We are not Canada Soccer. What Westhead is doing is neither positive nor negative for us, but he is holding the governing body for the sport in this country accountable on certain issues. 

I know what you mean at a low level, but at a high level we are all part of the Canadian Soccer ecosystem. The fandom is important at setting the tempreature around the team. So too are the media. That's where my negativity toward Westhead comes from. He is not a soccer guy but he is injecting himself into our ecosystem and not in a way that's entirely helpful given the timing. Not his fault or his problem, but nonetheless it is true.

[RS]

1 minute ago, Obinna said:

I know what you mean at a low level, but at a high level we are all part of the Canadian Soccer ecosystem. The fandom is important at setting the tempreature around the team. So too are the media. That's where my negativity toward Westhead comes from. He is not a soccer guy but he is injecting himself into our ecosystem and not in a way that's entirely helpful given the timing. Not his fault or his problem, but nonetheless it is true.

Imagine how people in hockey feel.

[Ottawafan]

28 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

You figure it out. I'm not your Dad

I am trying to figure out where you are coming from on this.  Honestly can't.

[RS]

Just now, Ottawafan said:

I am trying to figure out where you are coming from on this.  Honestly can't.

Well, the guy who's constantly accusing TSN of pushing an agenda also has 30 more posts than anyone else in this thread. That should inform you a bit, I would say.

[Ottawafan]

1 minute ago, RS said:

Well, the guy who's constantly accusing TSN of pushing an agenda also has 30 more posts than anyone else in this thread. That should inform you a bit, I would say.

Good point.  I don't jump in here too often so I don't know what narrative someone might be pushing.

[RS]

6 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I don't jump in here too often

Good choice.

[SpursFlu]

10 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I am trying to figure out where you are coming from on this.  Honestly can't.

Nowhere, you stumped me. When you pointed out that a sports network has produced sports content. I had no comeback for that. Good point 

[SpursFlu]

11 minutes ago, RS said:

Well, the guy who's constantly accusing TSN of pushing an agenda also has 30 more posts than anyone else in this thread. That should inform you a bit, I would say.

Well I'm glad you're still a fan. I thought you unfriended me. I have 120 posts, you've got 90 posts. I guess you've found that right balance. That's what make you the pro

[Obinna]

36 minutes ago, RS said:

but he is holding the governing body for the sport in this country accountable on certain issues. 

Want to stress that I am very thankful he is doing this. I think it is important. It's just unfortunate timing, but the CSA absolutely needs to held more accountable.

Just don't want any of you to think I am not placing importance on this just because I have been critical on some of Westhead's reporting. It is good that someone with a high profile is taking the CSA to task.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

I have never liked TSN 

 

Since they stole Darren Dutchyshen when I was a teenager. 

 

 

(Sorry trying to follow but feel really out of touch with the Canadian sport media landscape)

[SpursFlu]

33 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I don't generally push back on your posts, because I appreciate your propensity to question everything and not blindly accept narratives on their face, but I will push back on a couple of things here, because I want to be fair:

TSN may not actually know what they are doing here. In my experience, even at mid-sized organizations it can be very difficult to get everyone pulling in the same direction, let alone at a large organization. I know a guy who worked at Shell who described them as a big dumb animal with people pulling in different directions. The phrase "the hands don't know what the feet are doing" may apply here with TSN. They are a big organization and potentially there are different people with different agendas pulling in different directions.

 

They know exactly what they're doing. They startd this whole assignment with a desired outcome 

[narduch]

Just now, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I have never liked TSN 

 

Since they stole Darren Dutchyshen when I was a teenager. 

 

 

(Sorry trying to follow but feel really out of touch with the Canadian sport media landscape)

I have a hard time believing their hockey insiders didnt`know about the sexual assault scandals.

They were complicit in the cover up.

[Watchmen]

25 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I know what you mean at a low level, but at a high level we are all part of the Canadian Soccer ecosystem. The fandom is important at setting the tempreature around the team. So too are the media. That's where my negativity toward Westhead comes from. He is not a soccer guy but he is injecting himself into our ecosystem and not in a way that's entirely helpful given the timing. Not his fault or his problem, but nonetheless it is true.

As a counterpoint: not being a "soccer guy" is what gives him more freedom to discuss this type of story. As media/journalist opportunities around the world shrink, it's easier for someone embedded with a specific sport to be leaned on by the team/organizing body. ie "If you print that, we will restrict your access to the team/events in the future and make it impossible for you to do your job".  Since Westhead doesn't require access to the team/events, he's got more flexibility to print what he's hearing. And this is why I don't really trust much i hear from someone like Gareth Wheeler (who everyone here would agree is VERY pro-Canada Soccer), because his entire livelihood depends on access to the CSA, national teams, etc.

[Obinna]

Just now, SpursFlu said:

They know exactly what they're doing. They startd this whole assignment with a desired outcome 

Could be, I am not ruling it out, but "they" in this case may just be Westhead and a few others in the organization with an agenda to expose Soccer Canada like they exposed/are exposing Hockey Canada. I can't speak to Westhead's intentions or lack thereof beyond that, simply because I would just be spitballing.

[Watchmen]

9 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

They know exactly what they're doing. They startd this whole assignment with a desired outcome 

 

[Obinna]

5 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

As a counterpoint: not being a "soccer guy" is what gives him more freedom to discuss this type of story. As media/journalist opportunities around the world shrink, it's easier for someone embedded with a specific sport to be leaned on by the team/organizing body. ie "If you print that, we will restrict your access to the team/events in the future and make it impossible for you to do your job".  Since Westhead doesn't require access to the team/events, he's got more flexibility to print what he's hearing. And this is why I don't really trust much i hear from someone like Gareth Wheeler (who everyone here would agree is VERY pro-Canada Soccer), because his entire livelihood depends on access to the CSA, national teams, etc.

That's certainly a good point and a fair one. I do agree with you here. This point and my own can certainly co-exist side-by-side, I believe.

[SpursFlu]

37 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Could be, I am not ruling it out, but "they" in this case may just be Westhead and a few others in the organization with an agenda to expose Soccer Canada like they exposed/are exposing Hockey Canada. I can't speak to Westhead's intentions or lack thereof beyond that, simply because I would just be spitballing.

Expose/teardown I guess we'll just have to decide for ourselves. At the very least I would hope that most would agree that instead of trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, the largest sports network/media company/ world cup rights holders could spend a little more time promoting the CMNT and giving more complete coverage to the sport as a whole in this country. The minute Whitehead is giving as an uninterrupted platform to push his narrative could have been spent showing highlites of the CPL semi finals and previewing next weeks historic and amazing finals in Ottawa. I know what interests me more