The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[RS]

I can't quote it directly, but the idea that TSN, which is doing a three-hour pre-game show for each Canada game at the World Cup, doesn't actually want Canada to be in Qatar is so absurd it could only be written by one person on this board.

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Jeeze, that's debating 101.

Because they don't actually debate, certainly not in the way that you and  I would do it.  

Believe me, I totally understand your frustration here.  I am just pointing out that this particular topic is just another example of the broader problem of how we discuss issues.

[SoccMan]

Apart from coming on these boards and definitely feeling the hype as the World Cup gets closer, are peoples expectations of what they thought the hype would be like if Canada made a World Cup is it what people expected so far ? I’m talking in terms of mainstream media ,advertising, store merchandise and even the general sports fan talking about it ?

[jhoops__]

4 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Apart from coming on these boards and definitely feeling the hype as the World Cup gets closer, are peoples expectations of what they thought the hype would be like if Canada made a World Cup is it what people expected so far ? I’m talking in terms of mainstream media ,advertising, store merchandise and even the general sports fan talking about it ?

Not really…I’m hyped beyond belief but not feeling it in the mainstream at all.

[BearcatSA]

6 hours ago, jhoops__ said:

Not really…I’m hyped beyond belief but not feeling it in the mainstream at all.

My perception is that's it's a tough time of the year in the Canada/NA pro sporting media world.  NHL, NBA (even relatively early seasons for these sports), plus NFL still dominate the spotlight.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by BearcatSA

[narduch]

4 hours ago, prairiecanuck said:

i believe the deal struck in 2018 and 2019 was done on both sides with the idea of growing the game and in effort of fairness. The genesis of the CPL does indeed grow the game in Canada and it isn't a profitable endeavour.  The goal is to get it to a point of profitability at some point.  The current players don't care about the CPL.  I don't think the CSB at the time had tremendous foresight expecting Canada to qualify for 2022 and to have multiple global stars in Alphonso Davies and Jonathan David.   The CSB side probably can't believe their good fortunes today at how things have turned out.  

 

A lot of people on this site don`t care about the CPL or think its necessary.

[jonovision]

30 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Apart from coming on these boards and definitely feeling the hype as the World Cup gets closer, are peoples expectations of what they thought the hype would be like if Canada made a World Cup is it what people expected so far ? I’m talking in terms of mainstream media ,advertising, store merchandise and even the general sports fan talking about it ?

I think it's still too early to tell. Even with the Olympics, mainstream hype doesn't start until a week or two beforehand, 

[narduch]

29 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

Apart from coming on these boards and definitely feeling the hype as the World Cup gets closer, are peoples expectations of what they thought the hype would be like if Canada made a World Cup is it what people expected so far ? I’m talking in terms of mainstream media ,advertising, store merchandise and even the general sports fan talking about it ?

I`m not feeling the hype generally.

I`m hyped. And I think completing the Panini sticker book with my son has helped. He is actually excited too now and usually doesn`t care about sports.

[Obinna]

19 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Without scrubbing through all of the thread, at least one poster has gone down the route of "Westhead is ONLY doing this because TSN wants to undermine Onesoccer/the CSA".

I'll listen to some of your arguments here, but I think the key is that it's not his job to be helpful to Canadian Soccer/the CSA, which is something you mention.  I'll sort of counter with - we have all begged the CSA to start acting more professionally for decades.  Now that someone with a national voice seems to be doing that, to be exposing some of the flaws in how the national teams are run and the board is organized, I find it odd how much criticism and blow back there is for it.

I can only speak for myself.

I am not critical of Westhead for exposing the lack of professionalism at the CSA. We should all be thankful for that. However, I am perturbed about the suit issue specifically. Several posters were irrate at the tweet and for a moment my "fuck you" toward the CSA felt a little stronger than it otherwise would have been. That's great for Westhead beacause it strengthens the narrative and gets more clicks (it certainly got me to click), but it's not good for reconcilliation, which is where the stakeholders of Canadian Soccer ultimately need go land. The bigger the fuck you, the more difficult it is to mend things. There are so many reasons to have a fuck you toward the CSA already, do we really need to pile manufactured reasons on top of it? For me the answer is no.

Furthermore, the person manufacturing those fuck yous (Westhead) isn't even a stakeholder of Canadian Soccer, so that's where I get a little protective I guess. He is just a journalist doing his job at the end of the day (like I acknowledged), but I just wish he didn't pour that extra gas on the fire. 

Maybe you feel the CSA deserve to look as clownish as possible and thus it's fine to bring up the cost of the suits and the returning of gear in a way that maximizes this narrative. If that's the case then fair play. You could argue that portrayal may not be fair to the CSA, but it is necesary to force the change that's sorely needed - and fair play to that arguement. However, I think there may be a fine line between leveraging enough momentum to force change and having that momentum boil over in a tear-it-all-down sort of way, where we through the baby out with the bathwater. That's what I am afraid of, especially against the backdrop of Hockey Canada. Not saying the situations are the same, but just saying the burn-it-all-down energy is already out there and we should be cognizant of that.

Now, you may have the opinion we need to tear it all down. That's something we may disagree on and we'd have to hash out.

Cheers

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, SoccMan said:

....I’m talking in terms of mainstream media ,advertising, store merchandise and even the general sports fan talking about it ?

Won't be in London, Ont during the World Cup but would love to see the confusion on the faces of the small minority of backward rednecks who put Canadian flags on their cars during the World Cup as an anti-immigrant statement when they realize they are supporting a CMNT filled with recent immigrants by doing so this time around. Cognitive dissonance time for the hardcore soccer hater types who are still stuck in 1980s Don Cherry's Grapevine audience mode.

Hope I'm wrong but think there are a lot more people out there that are not as overt with stuff like that who still won't latch onto the CMNT the same way they would the CWNT. They are fine with their daughters playing soccer but they want their sons playing hockey. Think we spend too much time worrying about the "general sports fan". If they don't appreciate our sport and fail to jump on the bandwagon during the greatest global sports event bar none it's their loss.

The main thing should be getting more of the core soccer community taking the CMNT seriously and supporting it rather than viewing groups who do like the Voyageurs as fringe weirdos.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

My brother and I were messaging about this yesterday and he said he just saw a Soccer Canada Gatorade ad during the West Ham game. 

[RS]

5 hours ago, RS said:

I can't quote it directly, but the idea that TSN, which is doing a three-hour pre-game show for each Canada game at the World Cup, doesn't actually want Canada to be in Qatar is so absurd it could only be written by one person on this board.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Apart from coming on these boards and definitely feeling the hype as the World Cup gets closer, are peoples expectations of what they thought the hype would be like if Canada made a World Cup is it what people expected so far ? I’m talking in terms of mainstream media ,advertising, store merchandise and even the general sports fan talking about it ?

You'd be surprised: the hype is relatively low in Spain, and I'd say in most European countries too. We are in an intense season, with extra Champion's League games, there is a lot happening. 

Normally in a season it winds down, the vast majority teams are eliminated from competing for anyting and it's just a winner here or there, a Europa league spot, avoiding relegation.

Then a few club finals, couple weeks break. Then shift into the World Cup.

This year I find there is little hype as well because rosters on many national teams are not clear, so that is up in the air too. That is another thing a normal season does, it filters in and out. But this time round, you have a guy having a poor year and why should that matter, a couple of bad months means you leave him off the NT? Or vice versa, a guy is on a roll, but you leave him off anyways, you don't take him just because he's playing well. Because it's just the start of a season. I think a lot of teams are going to play with the guy who was good last May, not the guy tearing it up on his club for a few months in late '22.

No clear rosters, also means a lack of focus overall. 

What teams do you really think have the WC in their heads and are thinking about winning it? I'd say just France, Argentina and Brazil.

[Watchmen]

6 hours ago, SoccMan said:

Apart from coming on these boards and definitely feeling the hype as the World Cup gets closer, are peoples expectations of what they thought the hype would be like if Canada made a World Cup is it what people expected so far ? I’m talking in terms of mainstream media ,advertising, store merchandise and even the general sports fan talking about it ?

I've had casual and non-soccer fans tell me they're getting ready to watch the world cup this time. Some have said they've never watched before.

In terms of "hype", I think the one problem for Canada was the draw. If you're on this board, you know how good Belgium and Croatia are. But there's not that one game against a "big" team that would really hype a casual fan, like vs Brazil, Germany, etc.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Watchmen

[SoccMan]

4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Won't be in London, Ont during the World Cup but would love to see the confusion on the faces of the small minority of backward rednecks who put Canadian flags on their cars during the World Cup as an anti-immigrant statement when they realize they are supporting a CMNT filled with recent immigrants by doing so this time around. Cognitive dissonance time for the hardcore soccer hater types who are still stuck in 1980s Don Cherry's Grapevine audience mode.

Hope I'm wrong but think there are a lot more people out there that are not as overt with stuff like that who still won't latch onto the CMNT the same way they would the CWNT. They are fine with their daughters playing soccer but they want their sons playing hockey. Think we spend too much time worrying about the "general sports fan". If they don't appreciate our sport and fail to jump on the bandwagon during the greatest global sports event bar none it's their loss.

The main thing should be getting more of the core soccer community taking the CMNT seriously and supporting it rather than viewing groups who do like the Voyageurs as fringe weirdos.

Yup have to say I get what you are saying especially the “ they are ok with latching on to the WMNT but would rather their sons play hockey” I’ve seen this so many times lol . 

[RJB]

7 hours ago, jhoops__ said:

Not really…I’m hyped beyond belief but not feeling it in the mainstream at all.

Maclean's has a front page with Phonzie on it, and a bunch of stuff on the team.  

[SF]

5 hours ago, Obinna said:

I can only speak for myself.

I am not critical of Westhead for exposing the lack of professionalism at the CSA. We should all be thankful for that. However, I am perturbed about the suit issue specifically. Several posters were irrate at the tweet and for a moment my "fuck you" toward the CSA felt a little stronger than it otherwise would have been. That's great for Westhead beacause it strengthens the narrative and gets more clicks (it certainly got me to click), but it's not good for reconcilliation, which is where the stakeholders of Canadian Soccer ultimately need go land. The bigger the fuck you, the more difficult it is to mend things. There are so many reasons to have a fuck you toward the CSA already, do we really need to pile manufactured reasons on top of it? For me the answer is no.

Furthermore, the person manufacturing those fuck yous (Westhead) isn't even a stakeholder of Canadian Soccer, so that's where I get a little protective I guess. He is just a journalist doing his job at the end of the day (like I acknowledged), but I just wish he didn't pour that extra gas on the fire. 

Maybe you feel the CSA deserve to look as clownish as possible and thus it's fine to bring up the cost of the suits and the returning of gear in a way that maximizes this narrative. If that's the case then fair play. You could argue that portrayal may not be fair to the CSA, but it is necesary to force the change that's sorely needed - and fair play to that arguement. However, I think there may be a fine line between leveraging enough momentum to force change and having that momentum boil over in a tear-it-all-down sort of way, where we through the baby out with the bathwater. That's what I am afraid of, especially against the backdrop of Hockey Canada. Not saying the situations are the same, but just saying the burn-it-all-down energy is already out there and we should be cognizant of that.

Now, you may have the opinion we need to tear it all down. That's something we may disagree on and we'd have to hash out.

Cheers

I would argue Westhead is simply reporting facts when it comes to the suits. I suppose he could sit on certain details, but the mere fact that this detail is raising such ire suggests he made the right judgment.  

And, I don't think this ire is a function of it being pedantic (though it may well be).  It's a function of this being a microcosm of the larger behavior and poor judgment demonstrated by the CSA.  The CSA has a constituency that simply does not trust their actions and, notwithstanding, goes out and spends on swishy clothing while simultaneously asking the players to take a bit less because the association is cash strapped.

The level of judgement by the CSA here is extraordinary and, frankly, consistent with past actions.

Sure, the jackets might be a small cost in the grand scheme of things, but a profound demonstration of idiocy.

 

[red card]

12 hours ago, prairiecanuck said:

The royalty percentage you negotiate with Nike is dependant on how many Jersey's you are expected to sell.  Nigeria's population is over 200 million and there is a global footprint beyond that.  It's a country where soccer is king.  The idea that we would come anywhere close to that is ridiculous.  We would get a lower percentage.  Hockey Canada gets roughly 2 million a year from NIke.   I assume that the CSA gets the revenue from Jersey's because it takes 6 weeks to get one if you order one..lol.

The CSB deal with the CSA should be completely transparent.  The fact that the highlights of the deal isn't made available on the website is pathetic.  This is a not for profit organization.  We should be seeing loads of ads and build up to the world cup, but we aren't because the players are in a fight with our association and refuse to do these ads or have their likeness portrayed in these ads. 

I believe the deal struck in 2018 and 2019 was done on both sides with the idea of growing the game and in effort of fairness. The genesis of the CPL does indeed grow the game in Canada and it isn't a profitable endeavour.  The goal is to get it to a point of profitability at some point.  The current players don't care about the CPL.  I don't think the CSB at the time had tremendous foresight expecting Canada to qualify for 2022 and to have multiple global stars in Alphonso Davies and Jonathan David.   The CSB side probably can't believe their good fortunes today at how things have turned out.  

The deal itself should have been a flat amount for TV revenue which was easy to calculate given the package deal with the CPL and a sponsorships up to a certain amount that was capped.  That way if the team did progress like they have the CPL would have had got up to a guaranteed amount needed to support the CPL and the CSA would have received anything over an above that if the team took off like they did.

There wasn't enough belief from the CSA in 2018 when this deal was struck.  There also wasn't an outcry from the players at that time either.  There were no media articles in 2018.  

I just hope this gets resolved.  The CSA still gets 100% of FIFA bonus'.  It gets 100% of ticket sales from games domestically, which is why we should be promoting at this time.  They get 100% of fees collected to travel to play away nations.  We just need to get a deal struck and to take this opportunity to grow the game.

I prefaced my statement that for those who have stated there is a pot of gold in regards to sponsorships, then you should also believe there is one for match revenues, kit royalties etc..Becoming a football country doesn't mean just getting sponsors onboard - CSA already did that pre 2015 when they had about 20 sponsors including major sponsors not on board yet today: Bell, BMO, Canon, Canadian Tire, Garnier, SportChek, Nutella & Amway. 

Kit wise, it would need Canada men to be upgraded by Nike to a tier 1 team. Given Canada hosts in 2026, it should happen as Qatar is currently classified as Tier 1. 

Nigeria does get a US$1 million bonus from Nike for making the World Cup which Canada won't get anytime soon. Just heard Wheeler say on OneSoccer today that Davies jersey accounts for 75% of sales. Davies team & Canada Soccer have been in daily contact.

 

The CSA had belief. It was the business community that didn't. As I posted in the CSB thread, Kloke's Voyageurs book says back in 2014, Montagliani's believed that the men's team needed to qualify for a World Cup for the entire Canadian soccer ecosystem to benefit financially. But increasing support for the men's national team wasn't going to be enough. If you want to make it a repeatable process, a domestic men's league was also table stakes for Montagliani. A new league also needs solid financial support to avoid failing like the CSL.

He accomplished both goals via the CPL and Qatar qualification without the CSA being in a financial hole. I think if he was still in charge, the player negotiations would have been handled more professionally. From the book: Montagliani's attitude & background as a player resonated with the players. He was able to connect in a way others couldn't. He spoke their language. There was a sense he was fighting for the national teams that we didn't always feel prior to that.

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by red card

[red card]

OneSoccer panel's take on latest revelations.

 

[DoyleG]

12 hours ago, RS said:

I can't quote it directly, but the idea that TSN, which is doing a three-hour pre-game show for each Canada game at the World Cup, doesn't actually want Canada to be in Qatar is so absurd it could only be written by one person on this board.

While you get a rise over 3 hours of fluff, the rest of humanity will be watch the other games being played.

[RS]

9 hours ago, DoyleG said:

While you get a rise over 3 hours of fluff, the rest of humanity will be watch the other games being played.

You couldn't miss the point more if you tried.

[Sal333]

21 minutes ago, RS said:

You couldn't miss the point more if you tried.

I'll bet you he can.

[SpursFlu]

I'm definitely feeling the hype in the Lower Mainland. I think its definitely a crowded sports landscape right now but a lot of that will fall to the side in the next couple weeks. Not great game times for us on the west coast but I think the 11am Belgium game will be buzzing. Ive booked the day off and ive got a group of friends organizing a meet up. If there uis a result in that game then the hype will be off the charts, if it's a bad game for Canada, they'll go out with a whimper here because the next 2 games are early morning. That rd of 16 game v Spain or Germany at 11am/2pm would be one of the bigger sporting occasions in the history of this country. Knock on wood 

As someone else mentioned my kids are super hyped for the World Cup because of our panini book but can't say I've completed mine yet. We've got them Canada jerseys for the day and I've emailed the principal that I think they should wheel out the TV so the kids can watch the game

Edited October 25, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Stryker911]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article/source-canada-soccer-comes-to-terms-with-alphonso-davies-on-name-image-rights/

[SpursFlu]

23 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/article/source-canada-soccer-comes-to-terms-with-alphonso-davies-on-name-image-rights/

Well that was easy