The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[SpursFlu]

And by the way folks if a company holds a dominant position in a market place.. pretty close to a monopoly.. and another company makes a strong entry in to that market place. If that company chooses to use all its resources to make life difficult on that company and everyone looking to do business with them. It's not a "grand conspiracy" it's called business, it could also be called common sense. I understand TSN, Bell, MLSE and what they're doing. I get it. But don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining. And don't tell me the executives of the CSA spent 11k on suits and expect me to be upset. Give me a break. Tell your hatchetman to spend less time frosting his tips like its 1999 and do better than that

Edited October 23, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Watchmen]

Rick Westhead helped break the story about the Hockey Canada payouts for sexual assault victims.  He's covered the story extensively, and it's absolutely damaged the reputation of Hockey Canada, a business TSN has had very close ties with for a very long time.  He helped break the story about the sexual abuse coverup by the Chicago Blackhawks, a story that the NHL is almost certainly unhappy with.  TSN would love to be back in business the NHL when the Rogers deal expires, and their employing Westhead may make that more difficult.  None the less, they continue to employee him.  

My point is that it's stupid to think TSN sent Westhead after the CSA as some sort of "conspiracy" because they don't control the Canadian soccer rights, something everyone here admits they had no interest in anyway.  They let Westhead investigate what he wants to.  We all know the CSA has been mismanaged and we've always heard rumours or stories from ex-players after they've retired, so it's odd that so many people are upset now once we start to find out the details of what might actually be bothering the players on how the CSA operates.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Watchmen

[Bison44]

So this latest Westhead basically boils down to mickey mouse shit about swag, who gets it who doesnt etc.  And the main point which most seemed to have missed, sponsorship deals getting nixxed by players.  Not the bogeyman CSB, not incompetent CSA, but by Davies reps who didnt want him featured in an AD campaign   How are they going to fix this. How can you sell advertising deals when the players dont want to participate?  Who owns the rights to the players images etc...and what can they market if not the stars of the team??  Its a ugly kettle of worms, that is being opened up because Davies is protecting his own personal "brand" and it sure seems like he has every right to do so.  

Again this brings me back to a heated conversation between Forrest and Brennan on his podcast a few months back when Westhead did one of his "hey look, I exposed hockey canada, the CSA is bad too! click here please".  Brennan was advocating more ad deals/sponsorship etc, and Forrest kept coming back to.. what the hell are you selling??  Cant sell the games, cant sell tv rights,  cant sell Davies or David (ie players the sponsors would want), they have their own personal deals.

[RJB]

I have no problem with the players wanting a cut for using their likeness. In fact, I'm pretty surprised they don't!  Can you imagine if someone was making money off your face and name and you didn't get a royalty!?

Sure, Westhead is on the players side.  On the CSAs side is an entire network so I don't object. This one is about optics, a PR piece it seems. Juxtaposed to the BOD getting new suits, the players having to give back gear makes the CSA look pretty bad, even if it isn't actually egregious. 

[Sal333]

10 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Rick Westhead helped break the story about the Hockey Canada payouts for sexual assault victims.  He's covered the story extensively, and it's absolutely damaged the reputation of Hockey Canada, a business TSN has had very close ties with for a very long time.  He helped break the story about the sexual abuse coverup by the Chicago Blackhawks, a story that the NHL is almost certainly unhappy with.  TSN would love to be back in business the NHL when the Rogers deal expires, and their employing Westhead may make that more difficult.  None the less, they continue to employee him.  

My point is that it's stupid to think TSN sent Westhead after the CSA as some sort of "conspiracy" because they don't control the Canadian soccer rights, something everyone here admits they had no interest in anyway.  They let Westhead investigate what he wants to.  We all know the CSA has been mismanaged and we've always heard rumours or stories from ex-players after they've retired, so it's odd that so many people are upset now once we start to find out the details of what might actually be bothering the players on how the CSA operates.

Why are you bringing logic, facts, and rational thought to a made-up shit slinging contest?

[BearcatSA]

3 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Why are you bringing logic, facts, and rational thought to a made-up shit slinging contest?

Because the members of the other side of the argument also believe they are bringing logic, facts, and rational thought to a made-up shit slinging contest? 😉

I guess that's just the way of the world nowadays.  

 

[VinceA]

Honestly if this stuff continues post WC I think Herdman bounces. Especially if he can get interviews with better countries. Also the US could pay him a lot more than we could.

[narduch]

14 minutes ago, VinceA said:

Honestly if this stuff continues post WC I think Herdman bounces. Especially if he can get interviews with better countries. Also the US could pay him a lot more than we could.

I`m 99% sure this won`t be resolved until after the World Cup.

[Gian-Luca]

14 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Rick Westhead helped break the story about the Hockey Canada payouts for sexual assault victims.  He's covered the story extensively, and it's absolutely damaged the reputation of Hockey Canada, a business TSN has had very close ties with for a very long time.  He helped break the story about the sexual abuse coverup by the Chicago Blackhawks, a story that the NHL is almost certainly unhappy with.  TSN would love to be back in business the NHL when the Rogers deal expires, and their employing Westhead may make that more difficult.  None the less, they continue to employee him.  

My point is that it's stupid to think TSN sent Westhead after the CSA as some sort of "conspiracy" because they don't control the Canadian soccer rights, something everyone here admits they had no interest in anyway.  They let Westhead investigate what he wants to.  We all know the CSA has been mismanaged and we've always heard rumours or stories from ex-players after they've retired, so it's odd that so many people are upset now once we start to find out the details of what might actually be bothering the players on how the CSA operates.

While I don't buy the conspiracy aspects either, Westhead nonetheless (for whatever reasons) continues to offer one-sided journalism that makes it appear that he has a bias. Case in point he continues to belittle CSB by referring to them as a "little-known" organization, ironically doing so in an article where the only newsworthy item in it had nothing to do with the CSB. I suppose if he keeps publicizing them unnecessarily (albeit disparagingly) he will ironically make them no longer "little-known" organization.

To help explain why posters are getting annoyed, its because they don't like that he shits all over the CSB when for decades we've been whining about the lack of business investment into Canadian soccer and praying for it to happen; they don't like the fact that he uses irrelevant and naive examples to over-egg his point, the bit about the business suits being the latest example (what's next, taking Bontis to task for dining Infantino at Denny's instead of McDonald's when the latter is more affordable?); they also get annoyed that he works for a broadcaster that greatly caused the problem and the need for the Onesoccer/Mediapro stuff that he keeps painting as being villains or holding back the progress and growth of soccer.  Does anyone really think that Mediapro was going to sue both TSN and the CSA for broadcasting a CSA-produced documentary about the qualifying campaign for using footage that says right in the documentary itself "Courtesy of Onesoccer"? Give me a break! That documentary is the one thing that even most blinkered "CSA are responsible for all evils in life, including COVID and Chris Chibnall"-type fans admit is something the CSA did a great job with (including having the foresight to do it right from the start of the campaign rather than when all the broadcasting-bandwagon jumpers got on board), yet it's still being spun in this article as though it is some sort of negligent waste of money that is all the CSB's fault that TSN didn't want to broadcast it.

How often has Rick Westhead mentioned in one of his articles that the CSA used to have to pay TSN to broadcast their matches? That's equally relevant to the CSB topic he keeps writing about, but as far as I can tell, the answer is zero. Nor have I ever seen this mentioned by any TSN staff on air. It is not surprising that TSN won't admit this, but that gets back to the issue of his content looking biased.

Westhead may have done great work when writing about other sports, but that doesn't give him an impenetrable Wonder Woman-like shield which prevents posters from pointing out the flaws, biases or naivety in the way he's trying to spin things with respect to soccer.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Gian-Luca

[ensco]

The fact that soccer executives are buying themselves gear but denying it to the players is news. 

Those of you saying “but TSN” or “but whaddabout this other thing”… I mean, it's a free country, have whatever opinion you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that, if what Westhead is reporting is true, it is effing terrible. Shameful. Disrespectful.

My editorial two cents: the context is that this is probably part of the hardball response by the execs to the Panama fiasco. I think the CSA are utterly in the wrong and I am on the side of the players. I can see the pro CSA/CSB case, but even if you support that, this move is still really bush league. Small time gangster bs.

Edited October 23, 2022 by ensco

[Bison44]

SWAG.  Your worried about swag?  The players turn in their training suits for youth teams to reuse....11 custom suits are bought for CSA brass for WC events??  Seriously?  The Gatorade deal that got nixxed because we now have globally popular players that wont quietly go along with the old status quo is a real ongoing problem.  What do other associations do??  How can you sell the team without the cooperation of the players?  This is getting uglier all the time and I dont have any hope it will be solved before the world cup.  Which means no big influx of money, no penetration into the national consciousness. OK, the player dont want CSB to make money, fine but arent you cutting you own nose off to spite your face??  Wouldnt it be better to have say Oso, Piette and Buchanon (lesser stars that might agree to it) on Gatorade ads seen by every person in the country as opposed to nothing at all??  This is just the typical, shoot ourselves in the foot kind of thing we always do.  Now is the chance to get sponsors, create interest across the country, get new fans, make some of these players household names and its getting fucked by fighting over image rights with no foresight to make some sort of compromise to help soccer in general in Canada, the rising tide that lifts all boats... kind of thing.  And Westhead. grrrr... trying to get these gotcha articles about swag.  14k on suits, really???  When we lost millions on the lost friendlies and Iran fiasco??  

[narduch]

31 minutes ago, ensco said:

The fact that soccer executives are buying themselves gear but denying it to the players is news. 

Those of you saying “but TSN” or “but whaddabout this other thing”… I mean, it's a free country, have whatever opinion you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that, if what Westhead is reporting is true, it is effing terrible. Shameful. Disrespectful.

My editorial two cents: the context is that this is probably part of the hardball response by the execs to the Panama fiasco. I think the CSA are utterly in the wrong and I am on the side of the players. I can see the pro CSA/CSB case, but even if you support that, this move is still really bush league. Small time gangster bs.

Pretty sure announcing Cochrane was already a big fuck you to their critics. 

I honestly think this will get uglier before it gets resolved.

The players know better now that to refuse to play is a mistake. The World Cup will go on even if there is no settlement. But after that all bets are off.

Edited October 23, 2022 by narduch

[ensco]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

SWAG.  Your worried about swag?  The players turn in their training suits for youth teams to reuse....11 custom suits are bought for CSA brass for WC events??  Seriously?  The Gatorade deal that got nixxed because we now have globally popular players that wont quietly go along with the old status quo is a real ongoing problem.  What do other associations do??  How can you sell the team without the cooperation of the players?  This is getting uglier all the time and I dont have any hope it will be solved before the world cup.  Which means no big influx of money, no penetration into the national consciousness. OK, the player dont want CSB to make money, fine but arent you cutting you own nose off to spite your face??  Wouldnt it be better to have say Oso, Piette and Buchanon (lesser stars that might agree to it) on Gatorade ads seen by every person in the country as opposed to nothing at all??  This is just the typical, shoot ourselves in the foot kind of thing we always do.  Now is the chance to get sponsors, create interest across the country, get new fans, make some of these players household names and its getting fucked by fighting over image rights with no foresight to make some sort of compromise to help soccer in general in Canada, the rising tide that lifts all boats... kind of thing.  And Westhead. grrrr... trying to get these gotcha articles about swag.  14k on suits, really???  When we lost millions on the lost friendlies and Iran fiasco??  

I think everybody understands that the issue isn't the "swag". Making it about "swag" is a way of demonizing the position of the players.

It's a metaphor for priorities and respect. Symbols matter.

It's a talent business and you treat the talent a certain way. If you actually care about what you are doing. The CSA has no business giving anyone the "don't bite the hand that feeds you" treatment, when it has never fed anyone, and doesn't intend to start now.

Edited October 23, 2022 by ensco

[Bison44]

19 minutes ago, ensco said:

I think everybody understands that the issue isn't the "swag". Making it about "swag" is a way of demonizing the position of the players.

It's a metaphor for priorities and respect. Symbols matter.

It's a talent business and you treat the talent a certain way. If you actually care about what you are doing. The CSA has no business giving anyone the "don't bite the hand that feeds you" treatment, when it has never fed anyone, and doesn't intend to start now.

Do you honestly think the players are getting worse treatment and less respect than they got 10 or 20 years ago??  Listen to Fprrest, Hume or Brennans stories and then watch that WECAN doc. 

We are finally having some success on the field, thanks to better and better talent.  The rest of the program is having growing pains as we transition from a also ran to a contender.  Higher stakes and more is expected across the board.  How can we monetize the success on the field, how much can we reinvest into youth programs that will "feed" the senior players of tomorrow?  How do you keep these global stars happy and involved in the marketing of the team?  Whats the best way to turn this newfound excitement into lifelong national team fans and soccer fans in general all across canada?  We need some long term vision in there, from the players and the CSA.  

[Kadenge]

@Bison44it's going to take all 3  stakeholders CSA, CSB and the players. Notwithstanding the existence of a supposed legally binding agreement, ( there seems to be some questions re default payments during covid) it's clear that CSB cannot maximize revenue streams without the full buy in by the players. The longer this drags on the worse it will become re lost revenue during a peak earnings period...now until 2026 at minimum and probably longer. All 3 stakeholders need to be at the table to do what's best for all 3 and Canadian soccer 

[RS]

12 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Do you honestly think the players are getting worse treatment and less respect than they got 10 or 20 years ago??  Listen to Fprrest, Hume or Brennans stories and then watch that WECAN doc. 

That's a pathetically low bar for success.

[TOcanadafan]

16 hours ago, Bison44 said:

So this latest Westhead basically boils down to mickey mouse shit about swag, who gets it who doesnt etc.  And the main point which most seemed to have missed, sponsorship deals getting nixxed by players.  Not the bogeyman CSB, not incompetent CSA, but by Davies reps who didnt want him featured in an AD campaign   How are they going to fix this. How can you sell advertising deals when the players dont want to participate?  Who owns the rights to the players images etc...and what can they market if not the stars of the team?? 

This is all the CSA’s fault because they don’t sit down with the players (men and women) and iron out a deal.  At this point in the game, the players (namely the big players who can help out the team in this case) are using the only leverage they have. 

[Sal333]

4 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Because the members of the other side of the argument also believe they are bringing logic, facts, and rational thought to a made-up shit slinging contest? 😉

I guess that's just the way of the world nowadays.  

 

All I heard from the other side are ad hominem attacks on the reporter.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Just now, Sal333 said:

All I heard from the other side are ad hominem attacks on the reporter.

...because they have no answer as to what the solution is that will resolve matters. This bad blood between the players and CSA/CSB could conceivably drag on until 2038 if nothing changes. The focus right now is on the CMNT but how can CSB investors sensibly profit off the CWNT if they are not providing a women's pro league?

[narduch]

20 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

This is all the CSA’s fault because they don’t sit down with the players (men and women) and iron out a deal.  At this point in the game, the players (namely the big players who can help out the team in this case) are using the only leverage they have. 

Bontis is anti labour rights.

I doubt he bends to the players.

[RS]

3 minutes ago, narduch said:

Bontis is anti labour rights.

I doubt he bends to the players.

He's pro-money though, presumably.

If CSA/CSB keep losing out on potential deals because Davies, David, etc., refuse to allow their likenesses to be used, the pressure could be enough to make him cave.

[Kadenge]

4 minutes ago, narduch said:

Bontis is anti labour rights.

I doubt he bends to the players.

Bontis and CSB are going to get pressure from Sponsors (not to mention bad press) to settle this is what I am hoping.

[Bison44]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

Bontis is anti labour rights.

I doubt he bends to the players.

Somebody has to bend.  Like Kadenge said, all 3 of them have to make something work, they are squandering the success on the field.  Obviously Davies isnt going to agree to be the "spokeman" for Gatorade without getting paid, but I sure dont want to have no sponsors, no deals get made so that no one makes any money and no players get media exposure.  

[Obinna]

18 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Rick Westhead helped break the story about the Hockey Canada payouts for sexual assault victims.  He's covered the story extensively, and it's absolutely damaged the reputation of Hockey Canada, a business TSN has had very close ties with for a very long time.  He helped break the story about the sexual abuse coverup by the Chicago Blackhawks, a story that the NHL is almost certainly unhappy with.  TSN would love to be back in business the NHL when the Rogers deal expires, and their employing Westhead may make that more difficult.  None the less, they continue to employee him.  

My point is that it's stupid to think TSN sent Westhead after the CSA as some sort of "conspiracy" because they don't control the Canadian soccer rights, something everyone here admits they had no interest in anyway.  They let Westhead investigate what he wants to.  We all know the CSA has been mismanaged and we've always heard rumours or stories from ex-players after they've retired, so it's odd that so many people are upset now once we start to find out the details of what might actually be bothering the players on how the CSA operates.

Haven't entirely caught up on this thread, so forgive me if this actually was the case, but when did anyone in this thread actually say or insinuate there was a conspiracy between TSN and Westhead against the CSA/Canadian Soccer?

Was this "conspiracy" thing about the comment I made about Westhead not having reason to portray Canada Soccer in a positive light? Because if so, I just want to say I absolutely do not believe there is any such conspiracy here.

My point was that Westhead is not a soccer guy (to my knowledge), and thus is not invested in the well-being of Canadian soccer. That doesn't make him bad or evil or incompetent or engaged in conspiracy or anything like that, nor does it mean I have anything against him personally. I was just making an observation that he isn't a stakeholder as far as Canadian Soccer is concerned.

The reason I point out that obvious reality is because I don't like the direction things are going (like the rest of you), and I don't think Westhead is being helpful here (not that it's his job to be). From my perspective as someone who cares very much about the sport in this country, I believe elements of his article (and especially his tweet about the suits) are not constructive to the well being of Canadian Soccer - it's destructive - so I was just calling that out and being negative toward Westhead and the article for that reason. 

Cheers!

Edited October 23, 2022 by Obinna

[PegCityCam]

I'm confused - can the CSA "monetize" any of the success we have on the field...at least any more than they already do with their 20 year CSB stipend? I understand that there may be some missed exposure (Gatorade) but where's this idea that the CSA can bring in any more monetarily than they already do? My understanding is that the CSB take in everything from all sponsors and it's up to them how they'll invest it.