The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Soro17]

20 minutes ago, Ruud said:

1 Hiring excellent coach- Borgis(sp?)

2 national training centres.  

3 ownership of annual revenue stream though Rogers cup

 

We can attest to some degree of similar success in CSA on similar actions to these. As a soccer dad I did like her idea that coaches shouldn’t have to pay thousands to take courses 

Tennis is still a poor comparison in my mind given the nature of the organizations (individual sport vs. team sport, regulations of leagues, essentially no one plays youth recreational tennis formally, etc.). Also, the cost for elite youth tennis is astronomical. I know the parents of a few provincially ranked youth players, their tennis budget is $50k+ per year. Half of it goes to private club coaches and the other half goes to travel to the US so they can play in (what they perceive as) competitive tournaments as Tennis Canada just doesn't serve up adequate events. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

Tennis Canada is the envy of the tennis world.  It wasn’t over night… 20 years ago they set up for reform, and now they’ve achieved success.  The fact that another star comes along every year or so is testament to the fact that they are doing a lot right.  Plus they have sponsors calling them, while the head coach of our National soccer team has to knock on doors. Why not learn from them, instead of dismissing their success by saying “it’s just a fluke” just so we can be content with our dysfunction. 

They are doing a good job, but they are not the envy of the tennis world, don't make us laugh. Do you know how many countries are newly excelling at tennis? Greece. Colombia in doubles, and India. Norway. Jabeur is from Tunisia. All the former Soviet block countries. Swatiek is the first Polish #1 and GS winner. Canada is an emerging power along with maybe a dozen other nations. 

About 30 countries have more Grand Slam wins than us (we have 1). 

Apart from that, until very recently they had to send players elsewhere to train because we don't have the basic clay facilities in Canada. Just recently it's changed, so they are not far ahead of the CSA on that front.

They have not set up a single other tournament with ATP or WTA points, only the Masters 1000 that was already there. They've alternated either weeks or venues since 1981. The rest of the country be screwed. So they are not growing pro tournaments at all. 

As I argued before, I have sensed that the younger generation of elite soccer players and the tennis equivalent are similar, in that they have a new mentality in a sport where we have not previously excelled. The young guns in tennis are not that different than the soccer young guns, so it's silly to attribute one set only to Tennis Canada and the other to everything but the CSA.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[El Diego]

I'm going to jump into the Tennis Canada conversation as I love tennis and love the success our country is having in it. However, I agree generally with what UT is saying. When you look at the big 4 we have now (FAA, Denis, Bianca, and Leylah), they all had different levels of involvement with Tennis Canada and the National Training Centre. The truth is, their development has little in common. The one thing people have pointed to is that they all come from immigrant families. I am not sure what generalization to make from this, if any.

If I had to make a point about it, it would be the same point UT made in the last paragraph of the above post. Both Raonic and Bouchard, who predate the NTC, were quite successful players, each making a Wimbledon final. Bouchard is a bit of a punch line now but she was (briefly) one of the best players in the world imo and had the tools to be the best. I think those two breaking through in singles gave a belief to this next gen that is doing so well.

You have to remember that this is four players -- this could have happened by chance. The key isn't so much figuring how this happened to repeat it, it's figuring out how to leverage the success to ensure it keeps happening.

[SF]

Fair enough - it could be luck or a combination of system and luck. Also take the point that the conversation is perhaps a bit premature.  If we roll out players like Spain for the next 20 years, then maybe we're there as a tennis nation.

But, I do think it's easy to conclude that tennis is more professionally run in Canada vs. the soccer setup (at the senior level). Pretty hard to find a tennis pro publicly speaking ill of Tennis Canada and the corporate profile is substantially better than soccer (i.e. at the precise moment the CSA should be cashing in with corporate Canada, it is imploding).

[El Diego]

3 hours ago, SF said:

Fair enough - it could be luck or a combination of system and luck. Also take the point that the conversation is perhaps a bit premature.  If we roll out players like Spain for the next 20 years, then maybe we're there as a tennis nation.

But, I do think it's easy to conclude that tennis is more professionally run in Canada vs. the soccer setup (at the senior level). Pretty hard to find a tennis pro publicly speaking ill of Tennis Canada and the corporate profile is substantially better than soccer (i.e. at the precise moment the CSA should be cashing in with corporate Canada, it is imploding).

Tennis is definitely better run than soccer, but that's a low bar to clear

I also want to be clear that I'm not saying what Tennis Canada is doing isn't working -- we have a lot of decent prospects, more than I can remember in the past. I'm not sure if we have any elite prospects (other than maybe Mboko but I haven't seen her play). I'm just saying I don't buy that the success we're having with the big 4 is a top down thing. The only one we can try to say is an NTC success is FAA but it's always hard to discern with individuals what the reason for their successful development truly is.

[Unnamed Trialist]

21 minutes ago, El Diego said:

Tennis is definitely better run than soccer, but that's a low bar to clear

I also want to be clear that I'm not saying what Tennis Canada is doing isn't working -- we have a lot of decent prospects, more than I can remember in the past. I'm not sure if we have any elite prospects (other than maybe Mboko but I haven't seen her play). I'm just saying I don't buy that the success we're having with the big 4 is a top down thing. The only one we can try to say is an NTC success is FAA but it's always hard to discern with individuals what the reason for their successful development truly is.

There's another thing: no one really cares if Canada is not doing well at tennis. No one really sweats it, it causes no shame, it provokes little frustration. Totally unlike soccer.

Don't get me wrong, I do follow tennis and want to see the men's and women's team go deep in national competitions (Davis Cup, Federations Cup). I'd prefer to see them in the top tier always. I loved that we played a Davis Cup final, and recently, and we clearly have the goods to be able to make another and win it.

We also have a top doubles player in Dabrowski who should mean our women could succeed as well.

But you can't tell me that there is a mass following that even cares that much. I doubt even 10% of fans at the Rogers Cup (or whatever they call it now) know what our players do for the national cause. And there's more: other countries who are even bigger in tennis don't care too much either. Switzerland has only won once, with Federer and Wawrinka, and Federer has consistently shunned Davis play. He never won singles gold at the Olympics, it was always a minor affair to represent his country. 

Canada won an Olympic medal once but most fans would have no idea who won it (our winningest player ever BTW).

There is no comparison to what it means to represent your country in soccer.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[TOcanadafan]

4 hours ago, El Diego said:

 

You have to remember that this is four players -- this could have happened by chance. The key isn't so much figuring how this happened to repeat it, it's figuring out how to leverage the success to ensure it keeps happening.

One thing that can’t be questioned is the ability of Tennis Canada to generate revenue to fund its programming, attract top coaches / staff, operate its facilities, etc.  Well before Canada had produced their current crop of stars, in 2013, the UK poached our now President to help them with the business side of things.   And France recently hired Borfiga to rebuild their program from a technical side of things. I may have overstated that our program is the ‘envy of the world’, but two major players seem to think we’re doing something right on both the business and technical sides.  I was just suggesting, admittedly after motivation from listening to the Footy Prime Podcast, that maybe we could learn a thing or two from Tennis Canada - if they brought the guest on their show… they must have been thinking along these lines so I’m surprised how many people on here are against this.

How can Canadian Soccer even dream of having the same financial success as Tennis Canada, when it’s stars, their number 1 marketing asset, are at complete odds with the federation?  And to bring it back to this thread, what’s the point, when all the revenue growth would just go to the CPL anyways.  My big problem with the CSB deal, is if we did identify things that could improve our quality throughout the system (e.g., coaching, facilities*, greater emphasis on youth teams), we won’t have the funds available. The CSA and national team players have always cried poor… and I just don’t see how we can stretch the extra $3M /yr minus whatever Canada Soccer was already pulling in from sponsorship to improve and sustain an ambitious program (albeit enough for the better flights and accommodations this qualifying round for our Sr. men’s team).

* - I do get that in many cases improved facilities come from public money.

[DoyleG]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There's another thing: no one really cares if Canada is not doing well at tennis. No one really sweats it, it causes no shame, it provokes little frustration. Totally unlike soccer.

Don't get me wrong, I do follow tennis and want to see the men's and women's team go deep in national competitions (Davis Cup, Federations Cup). I'd prefer to see them in the top tier always. I loved that we played a Davis Cup final, and recently, and we clearly have the goods to be able to make another and win it.

We also have a top doubles player in Dabrowski who should mean our women could succeed as well.

But you can't tell me that there is a mass following that even cares that much. I doubt even 10% of fans at the Rogers Cup (or whatever they call it now) know what our players do for the national cause. And there's more: other countries who are even bigger in tennis don't care too much either. Switzerland has only won once, with Federer and Wawrinka, and Federer has consistently shunned Davis play. He never won singles gold at the Olympics, it was always a minor affair to represent his country. 

Canada won an Olympic medal once but most fans would have no idea who won it (our winningest player ever BTW).

There is no comparison to what it means to represent your country in soccer.

It more that people using Tennis Canada as a "success" are just clutching at straws.

There's a big difference in individual sports and team sports, and the latter's record in Canada has been atrocious.

[Stryker911]

Didnt know where to put this. But Bontis attended the Vaughan Mayors gala back in June. I have no evidence if this is in anyways untoward, but I am going to assume they have had alot of discussion regarding the Vaughan/national soccer centre.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Stryker911

[El Hombre]

2 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

Didnt know where to put this. But Bontis attended the Vaughan Mayors gala back in June. I have no evidence if this is in anyways untoward, but I am going to assume they have had alot of discussion regarding the Vaughan/national soccer centre.

 

The part in Westhead's article about the Vaughan Soccer Centre does stink to me.  Something didn't seem right at the time.  And then how this part was just glossed over in the latest NFP episode reminded me of this issue.

It's not hard to put together an RFP.  That's the only way you can determine you are getting the best deal.  Heck, you can even put an RFP out for show and still choose your favourite candidate (not unlike the General Secretary search) and say you did your due diligence.  The only reason not to put out an RFP is because it was already promised to some organization and you don't want to piss them off by making them put together a response.

[Unnamed Trialist]

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/gymnastics/gymnastics-letter-freeze-funding-1.6527343

So the CSA is bad, but not as bad as others who are badder.

[Kadenge]

8 hours ago, Stryker911 said:

Didnt know where to put this. But Bontis attended the Vaughan Mayors gala back in June. I have no evidence if this is in anyways untoward, but I am going to assume they have had alot of discussion regarding the Vaughan/national soccer centre.

 

Vaughan has a good looking Mayor 

 

[Club Linesman]

Pretty sure that is his wife.  If it isn’t he certainly isn't the smartest guy in the room.

[PopePouri]

20 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/summer/gymnastics/gymnastics-letter-freeze-funding-1.6527343

So the CSA is bad, but not as bad as others who are badder.

I mean, look at Hockey Canada right now.

[narduch]

32 minutes ago, Club Linesman said:

Pretty sure that is his wife.  If it isn’t he certainly isn't the smartest guy in the room.

Definitely his wife as Vaughan's mayor is a man

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Definitely his wife as Vaughan's mayor is a man

So you are saying that the woman beside Bontis is definitely not a man/men?

 

 

[yellowsweatygorilla]

On 7/21/2022 at 12:44 PM, Stryker911 said:

Didnt know where to put this. But Bontis attended the Vaughan Mayors gala back in June. I have no evidence if this is in anyways untoward, but I am going to assume they have had alot of discussion regarding the Vaughan/national soccer centre.

 

Well, there's definitely something sketch when the head of Woodbine Sports and Entertainment (along with Angus McNab) publicly tweets that the CSA failed to respond to their request for collaboration around the Woodbine grounds/training centre. One division I wasn't expecting to appear was between CSA and CSB-linked entities.

 

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

Well, there's definitely something sketch when the head of Woodbine Sports and Entertainment (along with Angus McNab) publicly tweets that the CSA failed to respond to their request for collaboration around the Woodbine grounds/training centre. One division I wasn't expecting to appear was between CSA and CSB-linked entities.

 

Is that because Canada Soccer is uninterested or are they simply overwhelmed and haven't gotten around to formulating and sending a response? I would like to think it's the latter.

Sorry if I am glossing over some details as I haven't read the whole thread, just the last few posts. 

[yellowsweatygorilla]

4 hours ago, Obinna said:

Is that because Canada Soccer is uninterested or are they simply overwhelmed and haven't gotten around to formulating and sending a response? I would like to think it's the latter.

Sorry if I am glossing over some details as I haven't read the whole thread, just the last few posts. 

No clue, but all that is apparent is that people that should be in the know .. Jim Lawson, Angus McNab .. seem out of the loop and are willing to make their discontent public. But overwhelmed doesn't seem like it, if they still proceeded to announce Vaughan .. and uninterested seems problematic if you are going to sign a deal with one entity without even vetting another offer to see if there are more cost-benefits.

[PegCityCam]

Newsflash: No New News

[Obinna]

59 minutes ago, PegCityCam said:

Newsflash: No New News

lol why wouldn't they just let them review the damn contract? 

[Ally McCoist]

Who wants to bet that the CSB gets all the jersey profits

[ted]

56 minutes ago, Ally McCoist said:

Who wants to bet that the CSB gets all the jersey profits

Given that we already know that is the case, I think betting on it would be silly.

Not getting permission from the players and giving them a slice is a bad move by CSB even if some weasel lawyer probably told them they didn't need to.

[Gian-Luca]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

lol why wouldn't they just let them review the damn contract? 

It's pretty standard in these kinds of contracts for there to be confidentiality clauses that would prevent either party from sharing a copy of the contract with a third party or parties (which the players are in this case, even though I suspect they may not understand this) without the consent of the other party. Most businesses will usually not just distribute contracts to third parties for a whole host of reasons, including legal but also because businesses- which obviously applies to CSB -  generally aren't transparent outside of their own walls.

In any case, I thought the players' buddy Westhead indicated that he had obtained a copy (or am I misremembering), and if so you'd think the players would have access to it that way.

[Metro]

3 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

It's pretty standard in these kinds of contracts for there to be confidentiality clauses that would prevent either party from sharing a copy of the contract with a third party or parties (which the players are in this case, even though I suspect they may not understand this) without the consent of the other party. Most businesses will usually not just distribute contracts to third parties for a whole host of reasons, including legal but also because businesses- which obviously applies to CSB -  generally aren't transparent outside of their own walls.

In any case, I thought the players' buddy Westhead indicated that he had obtained a copy (or am I misremembering), and if so you'd think the players would have access to it that way.

- deleted -

Edited July 25, 2022 by Metro