The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Gian-Luca]

What I'm not clear about is, what happens if one of the teams doesn't make the World Cup. Let's say the men don't qualify for 2030 but the women qualify for 2031. Do the men take half the women's money in that scenario, or is a failure to qualify something that will make it exempt as being considered "equal work"?

 

[Obinna]

14 minutes ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

To be fair - unless my understanding is wildly incorrect - from the CSA's perspective 30/40% equally or 30/40% equitably is still 30/40%. It only changes the amounts going into the players pockets.

 

30 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Most of all though, he just said (for the first time from any men's player) "equal" which should just about close the issue, as I don't see how the CSA can pay out 160% of $10 million USD prize money. They are going to have to come down significantly from their original demands on that front. I guess the media didn't feel the need to clarify the 40% net tax ask, because this is generally accepted to be what the demand was now?

I think Gian Luca may have the right understanding of what this would mean for the CSA.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Obinna

[Obinna]

6 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

What I'm not clear about is, what happens if one of the teams doesn't make the World Cup. Let's say the men don't qualify for 2030 but the women qualify for 2031. Do the men take half the women's money in that scenario, or is a failure to qualify something that will make it exempt as being considered "equal work"?

 

This is a good question. My gut reaction is to suggest the women would cry foul in that circumstance, but who's to say I suppose.

In my view, the equal pay movement is done in the spirit of catching the women up to the men, in terms of earning a living. Giving the men the women's money in that scenario would go against that spirit, even though it would be technically "equal". Contracts are built on technicalities, so things could get messy if technicalities go against the spirit of what's trying to be achieved, if you know what I mean.

I suspect few would have sympathy for the men in such a scenario. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Obinna

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

There is not a single comment or insinuation in Beckie's comments about clubs, club salaries or women's salaries for their clubs. You did not have to make such a long post about something that was not referred to. 

One reason the discussion can be had with national teams is that they do indeed represent nations, who have public policies and articulate public principles, unlike clubs. Another reason is that since the discrepancy in salaries is normally so immense with clubs (though we probably have 5-6 women making more than some of the men on the NT), part of that can be addressed through the institutional policies of national teams. 

Fair enough, but I am just taking this to the logical conclusion. So long as there's an appetite for equal pay, why would we just stop at national teams? Because we cannot do more?

Maybe our appetite for equality gets met when women at the highest level of the game earn a living way above the average person, just like the men do. And maybe that can be wholly achieved via the national teams. However, to play devil's advocate, we are already there, no? Janine Beckie probably makes way above the median Canadian salary, yet she's likely grossly underpaid compared to a Jonathan David, for instance. I am very interested in how far we get with this thing. 

So while you do have a point, I don't think it's out of bounds to explore that question in this thread, just because Beckie's comments had nothing to do with the club game. They have to do with her earning a living as a footballer, so that's enough to keep my post onside, I think. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Obinna

[Gian-Luca]

 

[narduch]

More info from Veth. Read the full thread.

 

[Bison44]

So Veth is saying that CSB does get a cut of "World cup earnings"??  

[RJB]

28 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So Veth is saying that CSB does get a cut of "World cup earnings"??  

Pretty clearly it seems.  So we're back to wondering what is in the CSB deal?  Seriously, why aren't any of the many sports radio stations having the CSA on to ask them these questions directly!!!???  

[PegCityCam]

33 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So Veth is saying that CSB does get a cut of "World cup earnings"??  

Not just any cut 😢

[youllneverwalkalone]

Sorry Manuel, that doesn't make sense.

[RJB]

9 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Sorry Manuel, that doesn't make sense.

 

He is saying that the CSA already signed over prize money to CSB.  

 

[red card]

Could it be that the CSA took an advance on the CSB payouts of future year(s) and has spent it or will spend it all this year.

Even though the CSA came into the year with about $12.7 million in unrestricted cash. Even though Cochrane seemed quite confident today in saying World Cup prep won't be impacted by the Iran and Panama debacles. Even though Bontis sounded so ebullient in April about being able to now fund every team imaginable.

So, the CSA will need enough of the World Cup money to pay it off.

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by red card

[Aird25]

He specified twice that there’s more money involved than just the money guaranteed by FIFA, which make sense if CSB are doing their job, right? Couldn’t World Cup earnings just relate to sponsorships or marketing?

[CanadaFan123]

The great shame is that we could have handled the players appropriately, had two high profile friendlies and everyone could have got rich. Instead our preparation this window is halved and money is lost. The CSA could have even said “look, we can’t pay you out of the bonus but we can give you a % of the gate/merchandise at the next two home games”.
 

All of this would require the CSA getting it together March 28, 2022 and not jetting off.

Edited June 9, 2022 by CanadaFan123

[MtlMario]

15 hours ago, Obinna said:

Beckie previously played with Manchester City, arguably the richest soccer club on the planet. 

Should she have received equal pay with the male players at the club?

We continue to see this trend in the international game and I wonder if I will ever see the day where women's salaries are matched to the men on the club side of the game....

I don't know what the financial world of football would look like, because I don't have a crystal ball (unlike some people), but my guess is that male salaries would have to come down substantially to match it. The measure would have to be top down and force everyone to comply, otherwise players will chase the money and go to the clubs not participating in the equal pay model. Thing is, I doubt it would be legal for FIFA to force all clubs to adopt an equal pay model, but then again, laws are ever changing, so never say never. 

@MtlMario, does that crystal ball of yours work for this stuff?

People may hate to admit it, but money is simply the reflection of value. Women have immeasurable value in this world, but that's a moral, humanitarian statement. The challenge here is that the money/value do not care about morals or humanitarianism, in the same way the mass/gravity rule don't care about morals or humanitarianism.

Our solution has increasingly been to force value in the direction of women by going out of our way to promote their game, which may be a great thing on a moral humanitarian level. I just wonder how far we can take that, what that journey will look like, and how far the money/value relationship can be manipulated. 

Just my thoughts on the equal pay topic in football.

We never would of had these problems if we didn't give women the right to vote, kidding just kidding, (it's a joke I like to use when I'm having a similar conversation with women😁) but to answer your question , no I do not have that option on my crystal ball.

[Approve My Account Pls]

Not sure if anyone here listens to the Steve Dangle Podcast (a Toronto Maple Leafs focused podcast) but Sid Seixeiro came on to talk about this towards the end. Once he actually gets into it, I thought it was a great and quite measured listen in which he both paid props to the CSB for their work in the Canadian Soccer scene but provided valid criticism of the deal talking about how lack of transparency creates a mistrust. If you have time, worth a listen in my opinion. Also I think it's the best way to explain this mess to any casuals or uninformed fans.

I think I linked it properly to start when he comes on, but if not he comes on about 1hr19 into the episode

 

[SpecialK]

30 minutes ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

Not sure if anyone here listens to the Steve Dangle Podcast (a Toronto Maple Leafs focused podcast) but Sid Seixeiro came on to talk about this towards the end. Once he actually gets into it, I thought it was a great and quite measured listen in which he both paid props to the CSB for their work in the Canadian Soccer scene but provided valid criticism of the deal talking about how lack of transparency creates a mistrust. If you have time, worth a listen in my opinion. Also I think it's the best way to explain this mess to any casuals or uninformed fans.

I think I linked it properly to start when he comes on, but if not he comes on about 1hr19 into the episode

 

Amazing!!! 

[Vasi]

1 hour ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

Not sure if anyone here listens to the Steve Dangle Podcast (a Toronto Maple Leafs focused podcast) but Sid Seixeiro came on to talk about this towards the end. Once he actually gets into it, I thought it was a great and quite measured listen in which he both paid props to the CSB for their work in the Canadian Soccer scene but provided valid criticism of the deal talking about how lack of transparency creates a mistrust. If you have time, worth a listen in my opinion. Also I think it's the best way to explain this mess to any casuals or uninformed fans.

I think I linked it properly to start when he comes on, but if not he comes on about 1hr19 into the episode

 

Was about to post this video here. Thanks. 

This was very well said. The more I think about this the more props I give to the players for standing up and fighting for this sport. I really think the biggest issue they have is transparency.

I do buy the CSA line of no money....but tell us why. Tell us how you fucked up! I have a feeling they don't want to give the real facts because once they do all of them will have to quit. Then they wont be able to go to Qatar and party and schmooze. 

Also having Kalesho witnesses the united front, might have been the best way to convince the kid to play for us. 

[SpecialK]

https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2041707075576/

[Joe1973]

Not to beat a dead horse...TSN and Westhead broke news about the players vs CSA dispute right?

Just for fun since it's half time, go to  https://www.tsn.ca/ and see how far down you have to scroll to see that Canada is playing a Nation's League game live. 

I have an idea...ask the players to strike and not show up in the second half. Maybe the game will be pushed back to top of stories.

[RS]

1 hour ago, Joe1973 said:

Not to beat a dead horse...TSN and Westhead broke news about the players vs CSA dispute right?

Just for fun since it's half time, go to  https://www.tsn.ca/ and see how far down you have to scroll to see that Canada is playing a Nation's League game live. 

I have an idea...ask the players to strike and not show up in the second half. Maybe the game will be pushed back to top of stories.

On the other hand, the TSN Twitter account (nearly 1 million followers) has been posting updates throughout the game.

[Joe1973]

4 minutes ago, RS said:

On the other hand, the TSN Twitter account (nearly 1 million followers) has been posting updates throughout the game.

Yeah saw that after...was happy to see they were at least tweeting the goals

[johnyb]

[Cheeta]

On 6/9/2022 at 1:46 PM, Approve My Account Pls said:

Not sure if anyone here listens to the Steve Dangle Podcast (a Toronto Maple Leafs focused podcast) but Sid Seixeiro came on to talk about this towards the end. Once he actually gets into it, I thought it was a great and quite measured listen in which he both paid props to the CSB for their work in the Canadian Soccer scene but provided valid criticism of the deal talking about how lack of transparency creates a mistrust. If you have time, worth a listen in my opinion. Also I think it's the best way to explain this mess to any casuals or uninformed fans.

I think I linked it properly to start when he comes on, but if not he comes on about 1hr19 into the episode

 

Man, Sid had a proper go didn't he?  Quite right.

Required viewing.  Pay attention.  There will be a test on Monday.

[red card]

CSA provides an update. They sent a revised proposal on June 23rd to both teams. But only noted the women & their lawyers acknowledged receipt. Looks like the men still haven't hired their lawyers.

 

https://www.canadasoccer.com/news/canada-soccer-july-2022-update/

Edited July 4, 2022 by red card