The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[El Diego]

1 hour ago, A_Gagne said:

If the CWNT made the Women's WC and the CMNT made the Men's WC, and the CWNT players were paid a bonus, by the CSA, that was 10x less for that accomplishment than what the men received, I'm willing to bet a judge would not care if the source of that money was a sponsorship deal or player fees, or a one time payment from FIFA, or any other source of money that went into CSA general revenue. And if that was ambiguous in a court of law, it would not be in the court of public opinion.

The USMNT pools men's and women's revenue, including bonuses, and pays the players equally, and that's the standard that's being held up as the benchmark for gender equity. If the men don't accept that, and get on the same page as the women, they're just going to end up looking selfish and loosing anyways.

 

Not that it is an area I've practiced in, but your commentary on the legal considerations doesn't track for me at all. And if anyone would care about the details, it would be a judge should this matter ever get to that point.

Court of public opinion ok maybe, but idk

[DoyleG]

17 hours ago, Joe1973 said:

These are things that I don't understand. If I did a quick survey with people I know and asked them which would they rather watch between curling and soccer, I am not a statistician but my guess is that 95%-99% would say soccer? I am seriously not having a go at curling; I just still can't wrap my head around this lack of interest by the sports networks. Anyways it is what it is, and hopefully this changes after Qatar.

In the case of curling, the real events that bring in the fans occur in a specific time frame. The Brier, Scotties, and the WCs are all in that "Season of Champions". Its much easier to sell that portion of a month or so to TV networks then to have something that is much more spread out, as in the case of the World Curling Tour.

You wouldn't have that with Soccer given the apex is still the World Cup followed by the Euros. Getting the Copa America is spotty and the ACN is next to impossible to find.

 

[footyfooty]

15 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

Great summary!  And how in the hell do you solve such a thing? What is the equitable thing to do? How do you ground such a deliberation? In my mind, this can only be solved by something outside of these two propositions, some other understanding of what "equity" looks like in the face of a truly difficult debate.  This is beyond me...

Yeah it is definitely a tough one. You have multiple stakeholders all laying claim to that money. The CSA is in a tough spot as they need that money to continue developing the game in Canada. It seems the sides could not be further a part than they currently are. Hopefully something that works for everyone, gets figured out soon. Qualification should be fairly automatic when the World Cup expands meaning more consistent prize money rolling in, as long as they don't commit all of it to bonuses, there should be more money to spread around to all the programs in the future.

[The Beaver 2.0]

9 hours ago, Obinna said:

Maybe it just means people can take different positions on different issues......which is why we shouldn't stick people in a box to begin with, simply based on their views on a single topic. Just a thought.

Think you missed my intention, but that's OK. (I don't disagree with your point, mind you.)

[narduch]

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Wow, that is David Aganzo as their president, remember him as a player. He is also head of the Spanish players' association.

This is the sort of odd stuff that happens, you think you are outliers then circumstance makes you look like mavericks. 

For me, the jury is still out.

Aside: if you are wondering what At Madrid or Mediapro might thing, well Mediapro put the money down, a few million in fact, to get the Spanish pro women over the hump in the midst of a league strike, a few years back. Basically, they paid to get the weaker teams to agree to the minimums, put 3 million down I think like that. President Jaume Roures has his flaws but he's progressive in many ways. 

At Madrid president Enrique Cerezo, he's a business person, but in cinema production like Roures; neither would be bothered seeing  our players striking, both would support the CPL players union, and both have been active forces in getting the women's league up and running as fully pro in Spain. 

[Yoginess]

I am absolutely not with the players on this one. Don't hear what I'm not saying, I think Bontis is a pompous dillweed but as a fan of the program I don't think they players should get any bonus'. 

For the senior programs, I would love if the CSA treated both CMNT & CWNT extremely well. Good hotels, good appearance pay, private chefs, fly business. But any windfalls from performance I want pumped back into the program. Totally agree that some execs probably make too much, bad deals were signed and that needs to be addressed. 

I'd rather an extra money go to vast majority of people in the CSA that run the programs who are grossly underpaid. 

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Yoginess said:

I'd rather an extra money go to vast majority of people in the CSA that run the programs who are grossly underpaid. 

Not an unreasonable position to take. You get what you pay for in life. If we want a better CSA, we probably have to pay for it. 

[SpursFlu]

I think we should use some of the 10 million World Cup dollars to invest in to the CSA front office and build out a better structure. I'm sure everyone can agree to that

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, Yoginess said:

For the senior programs, I would love if the CSA treated both CMNT & CWNT extremely well. Good hotels, good appearance pay, private chefs, fly business. But any windfalls from performance I want pumped back into the program. Totally agree that some execs probably make too much, bad deals were signed and that needs to be addressed. 

I'd rather an extra money go to vast majority of people in the CSA that run the programs who are grossly underpaid. 

I am a little dissapointed in the players.  I guess they dont trust the CSA, but it would be nice to see some of the windfall this generation earned get reinvested into the youth programs. Get a nice chunk for the players, but leave a little meat on the bone for the next generation eh?  Have some camps and friendlies for them.  It wasnt that long ago most of them were twiddling their thumbs not playing in youth ball for Canada because there was no money for it.  Just think of it, real camps and tune up games for u-17's.  Maybe some of the fence sitters would choose canada if we took that part of the program more seriously.  

[Ally McCoist]

2 hours ago, Yoginess said:

I am absolutely not with the players on this one. Don't hear what I'm not saying, I think Bontis is a pompous dillweed but as a fan of the program I don't think they players should get any bonus'. 

For the senior programs, I would love if the CSA treated both CMNT & CWNT extremely well. Good hotels, good appearance pay, private chefs, fly business. But any windfalls from performance I want pumped back into the program. Totally agree that some execs probably make too much, bad deals were signed and that needs to be addressed. 

I'd rather an extra money go to vast majority of people in the CSA that run the programs who are grossly underpaid. 

Your points are all valid. However, I don't think the problem lies with the players being greedy. The problem lies with why is the CSA crying that they are strapped for cash despite the increased revenue in the past 2 years including the WC prize money? The answer lies in the specifics of the CSB deal which hasn't been made clear yet. 

[RS]

16 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

I am a little dissapointed in the players.  I guess they dont trust the CSA, but it would be nice to see some of the windfall this generation earned get reinvested into the youth programs. Get a nice chunk for the players, but leave a little meat on the bone for the next generation eh?  Have some camps and friendlies for them.  It wasnt that long ago most of them were twiddling their thumbs not playing in youth ball for Canada because there was no money for it.  Just think of it, real camps and tune up games for u-17's.  Maybe some of the fence sitters would choose canada if we took that part of the program more seriously.  

The players probably feel that the overall rise of the national teams (men's and women's) should come with increased sponsorship/merchandising/ticket/broadcast revenue, which could be used to pump up the overall program. Hence their demand to see transparency in the CSB deal.

The one-time windfall is just that, a windfall, and shouldn't be seen as anything but.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Does anyone here remember this? I do rather well. It is interesting to see that it was all worked out and that Kevan Pipe led the negotiations. The other day on their podcast Craig Forrest commended him for meeting with players and sorting these things out properly.

Anyways, check out these numbers.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/canadian-women-s-soccer-team-reaches-pay-deal-1.344686

Edited June 8, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

 

[Obinna]

Beckie previously played with Manchester City, arguably the richest soccer club on the planet. 

Should she have received equal pay with the male players at the club?

We continue to see this trend in the international game and I wonder if I will ever see the day where women's salaries are matched to the men on the club side of the game....

I don't know what the financial world of football would look like, because I don't have a crystal ball (unlike some people), but my guess is that male salaries would have to come down substantially to match it. The measure would have to be top down and force everyone to comply, otherwise players will chase the money and go to the clubs not participating in the equal pay model. Thing is, I doubt it would be legal for FIFA to force all clubs to adopt an equal pay model, but then again, laws are ever changing, so never say never. 

@MtlMario, does that crystal ball of yours work for this stuff?

People may hate to admit it, but money is simply the reflection of value. Women have immeasurable value in this world, but that's a moral, humanitarian statement. The challenge here is that the money/value do not care about morals or humanitarianism, in the same way the mass/gravity rule don't care about morals or humanitarianism.

Our solution has increasingly been to force value in the direction of women by going out of our way to promote their game, which may be a great thing on a moral humanitarian level. I just wonder how far we can take that, what that journey will look like, and how far the money/value relationship can be manipulated. 

Just my thoughts on the equal pay topic in football.

[johnyb]

Atiba interview on the subject. Thanks to One Soccer. Props to Hutch for putting his hand up for this, couldn't have been a comfortable conversation.

Edited June 8, 2022 by johnyb

[Approve My Account Pls]

12 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Beckie previously played with Manchester City, arguably the richest soccer club on the planet. 

Should she have received equal pay with the male players at the club?

We continue to see this trend in the international game and I wonder if I will ever see the day where women's salaries are matched to the men on the club side of the game....

I don't know what the financial world of football would look like, because I don't have a crystal ball (unlike some people), but my guess is that male salaries would have to come down substantially to match it. The measure would have to be top down and force everyone to comply, otherwise players will chase the money and go to the clubs not participating in the equal pay model. Thing is, I doubt it would be legal for FIFA to force all clubs to adopt an equal pay model, but then again, laws are ever changing, so never say never. 

@MtlMario, does that crystal ball of yours work for this stuff?

People may hate to admit it, but money is simply the reflection of value. Women have immeasurable value in this world, but that's a moral, humanitarian statement. The challenge here is that the money/value do not care about morals or humanitarianism, in the same way the mass/gravity rule don't care about morals or humanitarianism.

Our solution has increasingly been to force value in the direction of women by going out of our way to promote their game, which may be a great thing on a moral humanitarian level. I just wonder how far we can take that, what that journey will look like, and how far the money/value relationship can be manipulated. 

Just my thoughts on the equal pay topic in football.

There are arguments for what you're saying and for direct equal pay. I think both are valid in constructive debate as business and humanitarianism typically don't go hand in hand. However, I think now that the US have set the new standard with their 100% equal deal, anything less will be viewed as unfair in the general public eye. If Canada Soccer want to avoid another public firestorm, they are better off accepting an equal deal. So knowing them, they'll do the opposite

[Big_M]

Canada Soccer is already offering equal pay, its now up to the men to accept it

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Beckie previously played with Manchester City, arguably the richest soccer club on the planet. 

Should she have received equal pay with the male players at the club?

We continue to see this trend in the international game and I wonder if I will ever see the day where women's salaries are matched to the men on the club side of the game....

I don't know what the financial world of football would look like, because I don't have a crystal ball (unlike some people), but my guess is that male salaries would have to come down substantially to match it. The measure would have to be top down and force everyone to comply, otherwise players will chase the money and go to the clubs not participating in the equal pay model. Thing is, I doubt it would be legal for FIFA to force all clubs to adopt an equal pay model, but then again, laws are ever changing, so never say never. 

@MtlMario, does that crystal ball of yours work for this stuff?

People may hate to admit it, but money is simply the reflection of value. Women have immeasurable value in this world, but that's a moral, humanitarian statement. The challenge here is that the money/value do not care about morals or humanitarianism, in the same way the mass/gravity rule don't care about morals or humanitarianism.

Our solution has increasingly been to force value in the direction of women by going out of our way to promote their game, which may be a great thing on a moral humanitarian level. I just wonder how far we can take that, what that journey will look like, and how far the money/value relationship can be manipulated. 

Just my thoughts on the equal pay topic in football.

There is not a single comment or insinuation in Beckie's comments about clubs, club salaries or women's salaries for their clubs. You did not have to make such a long post about something that was not referred to. 

One reason the discussion can be had with national teams is that they do indeed represent nations, who have public policies and articulate public principles, unlike clubs. Another reason is that since the discrepancy in salaries is normally so immense with clubs (though we probably have 5-6 women making more than some of the men on the NT), part of that can be addressed through the institutional policies of national teams. 

I personally feel odd about the men's players not being able to get their fair share of the prize and compensation money they helped earn. It's hard for me, but I look at this way. If the policy is going to be equity--or equality, though when we speak about equity or parity in a union negotiation we are talking about a form of equality--then I suppose you have to find a way to make it work. 

The key point for me is not to just look at compensation paid to the CSA for tournament qualification and then tournament results. Ie, not just take the Mens and Women's WCs and pool the funds then divide them up. You also have to consider how the CSA has the potential to make money from games. We just lost something like 2-2.5 million profit from the Iran game. 

There are a few areas where we should be starting, if not already there. 

-the conditions of playing for Canada should be the same: convenient direct flights, proper scheduling, proper conditions of camps, same level of hotels, training facilities and team conditions including medical and physio support

-payment for games played for Canada, aka appearance fees. Should be the same. If a friendly fee is less than for an official match, then that, but the same.

-any bonuses for results apart from and beyond these major qualification payouts

-same for u-20s, age groups

Starting with this is a step towards ensuring you don't have any women playing for the NT without a proper income to live professionally from the sport. 

Sign this, then move on to the harder problem of sharing prizes and rewards for qualifying and results.

 

[red card]

1 minute ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

There are arguments for what you're saying and for direct equal pay. I think both are valid in constructive debate as business and humanitarianism typically don't go hand in hand. However, I think now that the US have set the new standard with their 100% equal deal, anything less will be viewed as unfair in the general public eye. If Canada Soccer want to avoid another public firestorm, they are better off accepting an equal deal. So knowing them, they'll do the opposite

Canada Soccer is on board with equal pay. The Canadian men don't seem up to speed.

Beckie's comments from the TSN interview 

..no one on the men’s team spoke to anyone on the women’s team before releasing the statement, but the two sides have had conversations since.

“They have apologized for using our team in their statement without asking. So, we massively respect that,” she said.

We have a great relationship with [the men’s team]. We have a great working relationship with the CSA. Right now, the conversations are positive and what they've put on the table, we're willing to work from there, kind of as the floor,” 

Beckie said the best-case scenario would be to have a deal in place before the team embarks on the CONCACAF W Championship next month. 

[SpursFlu]

"We're playing for our country"

"We should be taken care of in the right way"

Interesting 

Edited June 8, 2022 by SpursFlu

[Gian-Luca]

14 minutes ago, johnyb said:

Atiba interview on the subject. Thanks to One Soccer. Props to Hutch for putting his hand up for this, couldn't have been a comfortable conversation.

Sounds like the players are ready to focus on soccer again and will be leaving the negotiations up to the legal representation which is good. I like how mild-mannered Atiba is here, but I think if I was one of the BC based fans left in the lurch having spent time and money to come to a match the players cancelled at the last minute I probably would have wanted a bit more of an apology than what I think was an attempt to praise the support.

Most of all though, he just said (for the first time from any men's player) "equal" which should just about close the issue, as I don't see how the CSA can pay out 160% of $10 million USD prize money. They are going to have to come down significantly from their original demands on that front. I guess the media didn't feel the need to clarify the 40% net tax ask, because this is generally accepted to be what the demand was now?

[Obinna]

12 minutes ago, Approve My Account Pls said:

There are arguments for what you're saying and for direct equal pay. I think both are valid in constructive debate as business and humanitarianism typically don't go hand in hand. However, I think now that the US have set the new standard with their 100% equal deal, anything less will be viewed as unfair in the general public eye. If Canada Soccer want to avoid another public firestorm, they are better off accepting an equal deal. So knowing them, they'll do the opposite

I appreciate what you are saying, but where does the rubber meet the road? The USSF can afford equal payment, but can the CSA? I know they are committed to that, but like I alluded to, the men are going to have to accept less. You cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip. 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, but I can totally see the CSA caving to the men AND remaining committed to equal pay for the women, which will further put them further into the poor house if they follow through. That will subsequently handicap them in the future and we'll continue to pile on and blame them for not being better.

The CSA are in a no-win situation here.

You know, we talk about attracting the right people to steer the ship, but aren't we making the impossible task of turning around the CSA tougher here? Is making the CSA poorer going to make the challenge more attractive or is it going to signal candidates to stay far away from us? I bet the latter.

It's like expecting Pep Guardiola to leave City for Sunderland, isn't it? Sunderland would have to offer an incomprehensible amount of money for such a switch, and if there's one thing the CSA doesn't have, it's money. That's the whole problem.

[johnyb]

Herdman too. Good attitude, I know he's a salesman but I actually feel a little better after listening to this.

[Approve My Account Pls]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I appreciate what you are saying, but where does the rubber meet the road? The USSF can afford equal payment, but can the CSA? I know they are committed to that, but like I alluded to, the men are going to have to accept less. You cannot squeeze blood out of a turnip. 

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, but I can totally see the CSA caving to the men AND remaining committed to equal pay for the women, which will further put them further into the poor house if they follow through. That will subsequently handicap them in the future and we'll continue to pile on and blame them for not being better.

The CSA are in a no-win situation here.

You know, we talk about attracting the right people to steer the ship, but aren't we making the impossible task of turning around the CSA tougher here? Is making the CSA poorer going to make the challenge more attractive or is it going to signal candidates to stay far away from us? I bet the latter.

It's like expecting Pep Guardiola to leave City for Sunderland, isn't it? Sunderland would have to offer an incomprehensible amount of money for such a switch, and if there's one thing the CSA doesn't have, it's money. That's the whole problem.

To be fair - unless my understanding is wildly incorrect - from the CSA's perspective 30/40% equally or 30/40% equitably is still 30/40%. It only changes the amounts going into the players pockets.