The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[MauditYvon]

The 12.5 prize money also is in USD

[Obinna]

4 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Kone is 18 and wasn't on that level. Of the core players I'm not sure we have a player under 300k and who all happen to be like 23 yrs old. And to be brutally honest are about as low a standard you can get for a World Cup caliber player. 

It's a pretty simple exercise. Someone can easily find and post the annual salary of each player. Which wouldn't include... wait for it... the money they've made playing for the Canadian National team

I can understand being pissed off and viewing this as players being spoiled or entitled. I don't blame anyone for being pissed the game was cancelled because (in large part) the players want more money, even though several of them are multi-millionaires.

Off the top of my head, Davies is on a 5M euro salary, David around 3M, Larin is on 1.5M, Cavallini 1.3M usd, Osorio is on 1M usd, and considering TFC offered Laryea around 900k usd, I am assuming he got something in that ball park at Nottingham Forest. So that's 6 players who are either millionaires or will be sooner than later. Throw in players like Eustaquio (440k euro at Pacos), Kaye (now on 700k usd), Piette (close to half a million) as guys who've probably broken the million dollar figure in earnings by now, as well as the OGs like Hutchinson (who for years was earning over 1M per year at Besiktas and PSV), Hoilett (who I believe was on 40k per wk at one point, which I think works out to be +2M per year) and even Bojan despite bouncing around Eastern Europe has been at this long enough to probably be a Millionaire by now. Forgot Buchanan too, he's probably very comfortable now at Brugge. 

The guys who this would help more, I think, would obviously be the young guys like Kone, Nelson, Schaffleburg (not sure if they are part of the 33), but also Johnston (400k) and Miller (300k), who got big fat raises (that were deserved), but we on average joe wages up until very recently (sub 100k). Brym I bet could use that coin, as could Liam Fraser I am sure. What about the likes of Millar and Kennedy or Vitoria? Henry made a lot of money in Korea, but was it that much where an extra 100k wouldn't help?

If I had to guess, I think you have roughly a third of the players who "don't need it", but it would be nice, and the other two thirds who it would be very significant, if not life changing for them, but I am not even sure that's the point, because even someone like Davies could put that money to whatever use he sees fit and it's not my place to say he shouldn't try and maximize that because he's already "rich", know what I mean?

Even if we view that 100k as a drop in the bucket for Davies (5M/yr), is it really? To put the proportion of the bonus in perspective, if you were working at a good solid professional job, earning 100k a year, this would be the equivalent of getting a bonus for 2 grand, which would be pretty nice right? You can maybe put that towards a trip, or a down payment, or buy stock, etc. There are lots of things you could do with it. It wouldn't be insignificant. 

 

[CoachRetired]

5 hours ago, red card said:

The men overplayed their hand by not playing on Sunday. At best, for the lowest paid players who played WCQ, it is about 1 year's worth of salary that they're haggling about. If it is about pre or post tax issues, it is even less. Since most of the top players donate their winnings to charity and the US men just agreed to split their winnings with the women, I'm puzzled why money is such a factor for the Canadian men. Even the Jamaican players haven't refused to play yet even though they haven't been paid for months.

It isn't life changing money for the players as most of the World Cup qualifying benefits for them will accrue at the club level if they can take advantage of it. For the CSA, it will more of an impact as it is bonus bridge money that will help fund the teams especially at the youth levels till the 2026 windfall arrives.

If the men were looking for structural changes. Then, they need to play the long game. They should have also looped in the women who had started discussing structural issues with the CSA earlier this year.

The US women's battle took about 6 years. They didn't refuse to play any matches but took their case to the public and the courts. They didn't refuse to play when revelations showed USSF ignored disclosures that national team players were being abused in the USSF-managed/funded NWSL. The women lost the court case but since they won the case in public, the USSF still gave them a US$24 million settlement and they got the equal pay deal they wanted.

On a related note, the Canadian women's team hasn't really been subsidising the men all these years. Their World Cup money even for making the R16 is only US$1 million. OTP money is only for the women. But the Women's World Cup 2015 did support all teams pre-CSB. In 2015, the CSA reported $107 million in revenue of which $82 million came from hosting WWC15. Net revenue was $11.8 million.

 

 

 

How the CWNT OTP Restricted Funds works in the CSA:

OTP Summer Historical Comparison - https://www.ownthepodium.org/en-CA/Funding/Summer-Historical-Comparison

OTP goes to the National Sports Organization (NSO) in this case the CSA as a Federal Grant of Restricted Funds (RF) that can only be used by the CWNT.

IMO the OTP Grant comes into the CSA, the RF is basically used as the base budget for the CWNT with the CSA topping up the budget. The CWNT does not get their base budget from the CSA and have their RF added on top of that. This method has let the CSA for decades move money around in the CSA to be used elsewhere rather than giving the CWNT the same monies as the CMNT and then adding the RF to the CWNT.

You can see on some CSA Annual Reports (if you can find them on the CSA web site) that in some cases the CMNT budget is 2x that of the CWNT - https://issuu.com/canadasoccer/docs/2021-cs-annualreport-issu-en

The https://issuu.com/canadasoccer/docs is the best depository for CSA reports.

BTW 2021 was the year before the CWNT 2022 Olympic Gold Medal

The lack of funding and playing with the budget numbers goes way back to the Colin Linford days where the CWNT started out with just their AAP's plus a bit of CSA funding and sometimes outside funding (Greg Kerfoot).

Now with the OTP and a lot of players playing pro football in Europe they don't get their AAP funding as they earn over the limit. Thankfully the AAP monies go to CWNT players in the NWSL and the next development wave of players.

Sports Canada Athlete Assistance Program (AAP) - https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/funding/athlete-assistance.html


CSA Lack of Financial Transparency:

The CSA has a history of not being transparent with their audited financial statements. One only has to look at their web site to find that out - https://canadasoccer.com/about_resources/audited-financial-statements/

Annual Reports/Fluff Reports don't tell you anything when you want to know line by line how money comes in and goes out. Back in the late 90's getting audited financial statements out of the CSA was like pulling teeth. Even then they did the bare minimum of reporting.

Over the decades many fans have stressed the importance of knowing how the CSA handles money but it doesn't happen. Unlike the USSF where we have been able to get their financial statements back into the 90's Even today you can find 16 years of Financial Information  on their web site - https://www.ussoccer.com/governance/financial-information

Bottomline is the CSA needs to follow the USSF model and run the CSA as a business. That does mean equal pay and pooling awards monies ( yes, the CWNT award monies has gone into the CSA from both WWC and Olympic). The CSA programs have out grown the administrative structure and volunteer boards.

The NT players need to follow the same pathway as the USSF NT players too. The only way non-European NSO/Clubs can keep up with Europe is to do what the European NSO/Clubs do by moving the sport forward together for the future.

Cheers,

Neil

Edited June 7, 2022 by CoachRetired

[Admin]

So the Duane reference to Net I was speculating on and not understanding... was it seems the players asking for their share to be net after taxes.   Can't remember who posted the responses to that but they were correct in that it is that and nothing to do with any phantom % of WC prize money allocated to CSB/MP/OS

[Big_M]

Thank you

[narduch]

 

[Gian-Luca]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

 

Presumably hired to do battle with the legal counsel on the women's team over what counts as "equitable"....

[Big_M]

YES to #equalpay NO to #equalpercentage

[SpecialK]

 

[SpecialK]

 

[RS]

8 hours ago, Shway said:

I would've like to see these games listed as they were played to see the real trend.

Late to this, but those games are listed in chronological order.

[The Beaver 2.0]

But let's get back to the main topic here: Is anyone else here getting the sneaky suspicion that SpursFlu is a commie?  I had him down for a crusty, fringe-right conspiracy theorist, but I think I read him all wrong. Fighting for the little guy and equalization payments and the likes. Hell, he makes AOC look like a corporate raider. (We've gone full bizzarro, folks.) 😉

Edited June 8, 2022 by The Beaver 2.0

[Vasi]

After witnessing this whole payment fiasco, the small squads make total sense now. I would not be surprised that the late squad announcements also had to do with them. 

[CanadaFan123]

10 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

Average HOUSEHOLD income in Vancouver 79k. Median HOUSEHOLD income 63k! The 2nd most expensive city in the world. We've got Ukrainian refugees coming here taking a look around and saying thanks but no thanks. Half the city are immigrants who spent everything they have just to come here with their family and toil day to day. Now you have a bunch of kids with no dependents crying because their vanity project 2nd gig that flies them all around the world to play soccer doesn't pay enough. A platform that does pay and brings them exposure they easily monetize. The average CPL player makes 50 grand a year. Screw these guys.. what an insult

You’re going to be real upset when you realize the average player makes less than half that.

[A_Gagne]

2 hours ago, narduch said:

 

Yeah, Sharman on the footy podcast today was under the impression that they weren't being represented by anyone, so I guess Wheeler's tweet confirms that they are only NOW engaging legal council. How they could have previously not had professional representation (lawyer, agent or both) is baffling to me.

Forget the fact they're dealing with millions of dollars, or they're asking for fundamental changes to the organization, forget that you might want some professional advice in those endeavours, but I mean the main reason you get a real estate agent when you're buying or selling a house is to provide a professional go-between so you don't piss off the other party during negotiations.

This whole thing seems like it should have been avoidable, and that's what is the most depressing thing about it.

2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Presumably hired to do battle with the legal counsel on the women's team over what counts as "equitable"....

Equal pay for equal work. Seems pretty clear to me. The only battle their lawyer will be doing is with the men's players themselves, explaining to them that they have no case.

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, A_Gagne said:

Equal pay for equal work. Seems pretty clear to me. The only battle their lawyer will be doing is with the men's players themselves, explaining to them that they have no case.

What "case"?

There is nothing at all in law that would require the women's team to be given a share of the men's team's prize money.

[SpecialK]

16 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

What "case"?

There is nothing at all in law that would require the women's team to be given a share of the men's team's prize money.

Ontario law - that was talked about on the podcast. 

[SpecialK]

17 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

What "case"?

There is nothing at all in law that would require the women's team to be given a share of the men's team's prize money.

I honestly don’t understand the law argument. Also why is prize money taxable. In Canada if you win say the lottery or win a bet you don’t pay tax on it. If you win prize money at a tournament or fundraiser you don’t pay tax on it. I am no lawyer just a simple paper pusher with a simple political science degree. But wouldn’t that apply ? Their Appearance fees would be taxable because that’s an income. 
 

any tax lawyers or accountants in the house ? 

[A_Gagne]

29 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

What "case"?

There is nothing at all in law that would require the women's team to be given a share of the men's team's prize money.

If the CWNT made the Women's WC and the CMNT made the Men's WC, and the CWNT players were paid a bonus, by the CSA, that was 10x less for that accomplishment than what the men received, I'm willing to bet a judge would not care if the source of that money was a sponsorship deal or player fees, or a one time payment from FIFA, or any other source of money that went into CSA general revenue. And if that was ambiguous in a court of law, it would not be in the court of public opinion.

The USMNT pools men's and women's revenue, including bonuses, and pays the players equally, and that's the standard that's being held up as the benchmark for gender equity. If the men don't accept that, and get on the same page as the women, they're just going to end up looking selfish and loosing anyways.

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by A_Gagne

[Colonel Green]

32 minutes ago, A_Gagne said:

If the CWNT made the Women's WC and the CMNT made the Men's WC, and the CWNT players were paid a bonus, by the CSA, that was 10x less for that accomplishment than what the men received, I'm willing to bet a judge would not care if the source of that money was a sponsorship deal or player fees, or a one time payment from FIFA, or any other source of money that went into CSA general revenue. And if that was ambiguous in a court of law, it would not be in the court of public opinion.

Legally, that's a stretch. There is no reason that the women would be entitled to a share of the men's prize money. They play in different tournaments with different financial rewards and incentives. The law doesn't require judges to ignore context.

Now, whether this stance would be unpopular is a different matter, but that's ultimately up to the men's team to decide whether they want the money sufficiently.

Though on this point, if the men's team demand is 40% of their prize money, then that leaves the federation with the other 60% and they can do whatever they want with it, including giving 40% of it to the women's team if they so choose; the men wouldn't care about that either way, presumably.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Colonel Green

[ted]

On 6/7/2022 at 8:01 PM, SpecialK said:

Also why is prize money taxable. In Canada if you win say the lottery or win a bet you don’t pay tax on it. If you win prize money at a tournament or fundraiser you don’t pay tax on it.

The reason you don't pay taxes on lotto winnings is because the government exempts it from taxation as they are running it and already reap the profits. Same with fundraisers which are properly licensed. Tournament winnings are taxable in Canada as they are income.

For the World Cup we are using the term, "prize money" but that is paid to the federation by FIFA. The players receive money from the CSA for playing. It is simply wages as far as the Federal Government is concerned.

Edited June 9, 2022 by ted
spelling

[SpecialK]

3 minutes ago, ted said:

The reason you don't pay taxes on lotto winnings is because the government exempts it from taxation as they are running it and already reap the profits. Same with fundraisers which are properly licensed. Tournament winnings are taxable in Canada as they are income.

For the World Cup we are suing the term, "prize money" but that is paid to the federation by FIFA. The players receive money from the CSA for playing. It is simply wages as far as the Federal Government is concerned.

Thank you so much !!! 

[Soro17]

42 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

Ontario law - that was talked about on the podcast. 

The Ontario Pay Equity Act provides for equal pay for work of equal value. The regime for determining equal value is complicated and applying it in the context of competitive sports seems challenging. Also, I am doubtful the players would constitute employees in an employee-employer relationship under Ontario law (or any Canadian law) to which the Act would apply. 

[The Beaver 2.0]

The CMNT players might want to hire a PR firm while they are at it. This issue is bigger than just the legalities of equitable compensation. 

[Obinna]

3 hours ago, The Beaver 2.0 said:

But let's get back to the main topic here: Is anyone else here getting the sneaky suspicion that SpursFlu is a commie?  I had him down for a crusty, fringe-right conspiracy theorist, but I think I read him all wrong. Fighting for the little guy and equalization payments and the likes. Hell, he makes AOC look like a corporate raider. (We've gone full bizzarro, folks.) 😉

Maybe it just means people can take different positions on different issues......which is why we shouldn't stick people in a box to begin with, simply based on their views on a single topic. Just a thought.