The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[prairiecanuck]

2 minutes ago, Admin said:

Not sure what you mean. 

If the money is 10 million, and the CSA signed away 5million, and the players want the 40% of the Gross, 10 million that is the only way it jumps to 80 if the players want the absolute value of the Gross and it comes out of the CSA Net/take. 

Do I have that right?  (not saying that is what is happening)

If I'm being perfectly honest, I don't understand what is going on myself.  I'm just made because both sides made Canada Soccer look terrible!

[costarg]

41 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Yah - why did they even show up for this window if they knew there was a chance they wouldn’t play. They should have made it clear to the fans (and CSA) weeks ago. Turn down the call and don’t travel to Vancouver. Would have prevented the massive screw over of the fans while still getting their point across. Very poor form 

This whole thing obviously started when they all landed and got toghether to discuss.  Perhaps pro athletes aren't all that familiar with Teams or Zoom meetings.  Things progressed from there and moved fast. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Herdman even supported the players to do something or anything to shake up the CSA and expose the incompetence/corruption.

[Admin]

6 minutes ago, prairiecanuck said:

Any money they receive is subject to tax.  If they want net, they want 4 million going into their pocket so they would require 8 mil because Trudeau is going to take half.  

Not sure that is what is being talked about.  The Gross/Net here and the % have to do with the amount of money coming in from the WC and how that is distributed. 

There is 10 million prize money.
CSA bargained some of that away. 
Players are talking about % of that prize money
CSA I am guessing is talking in terms of what is left, players in terms of the total, hence the relative doubling of the % in the CSA response.   It only doubles if they signed half away. I don't think anyone is talking about taxes.

EDIT ( I have NO idea if this true or even pointing at the truth)

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

It’s called negotiations. You ask high , settle in the middle. But really this situation is not just about prize money. There are bunch of issues here. If the CSA board was smart and they are NOT, they would hold an emergency meeting, fire Nick or push him out. Send a letter to the players as a board, saying new leadership is needed at the CSA we understand that. Going forward this is the plan we would like to propose to Resolve these issues. Here is a schedule. We want to negotiate in good faith and have a fair deal for all parties without any more disruptions. If mediation is required we are happy to do so. 
With the letter you send the contract with the CSB and reasons why they signed it. 

You nailed it, it really is that simple.  However the situation gets complicated when the associations have cliques and cutbacks incorporated into the structure.

Do you have plans for the next 2 years or so?  Wanna work at the CSA?

[K-Dub]

The key question who is going to/able to show the leadership to get this issue resolved?

Of course there is lots of background and history here that complicates matters (which many of you have rightly raised points about), there is no luxury of time. 

Today's Guardian article sums it up best:

"As Canada Soccer dither and cry poor with their convoluted finances, the manager is left counting the cost."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/06/canada-soccer-game-canceled-labor-dispute

[Meepmeep]

32 minutes ago, Big_M said:

We are now pretty much getting confirmation that demands of players were ridiculous and indeed untenable

 

 

Ridiculous and untenable how?  It’s Prize money not operational revenue.   Unexpected and unplanned  for prize money. 
To me it looks like someone is hoping for a job at MediaPro with this line of tweeting. 
Next they’ll cite some percentages from other federations while neglecting to mention that it’s not a direct comparison as those federations didn’t sign away tv and sponsorship money. 
 

If gate money and prize money is all the players can get them they should get as much as possible.  
 

 

[prairiecanuck]

5 minutes ago, Admin said:

Not sure that is what is being talked about.  The Gross/Net here and the % have to do with the amount of money coming in from the WC and how that is distributed. 

There is 10 million prize money.
CSA bargained some of that away. 
Players are talking about % of that prize money
CSA I am guessing is talking in terms of what is left, players in terms of the total, hence the relative doubling of the % in the CSA response.   It only doubles if they signed half away. I don't think anyone is talking about taxes.

EDIT ( I have NO idea if this true or even pointing at the truth)

I mean, I'm not sure myself.  Feels like we need transparency!

[Big_M]

Very simply because the total of the demand takes it to over 100%

[prairiecanuck]

1 minute ago, Meepmeep said:

Ridiculous and untenable how?  It’s Prize money not operational revenue.   Unexpected and unplanned  for prize money. 
To me it looks like someone is hoping for a job at MediaPro with this line of tweeting. 
Next they’ll cite some percentages from other federations while neglecting to mention that it’s not a direct comparison as those federations didn’t sign away tv and sponsorship money. 
 

If gate money and prize money is all the players can get them they should get as much as possible.  
 

 

I get signing TV over.  That's what they were paying for.  It's the sponsorship stuff I don't understand.  

[Admin]

Just now, prairiecanuck said:

I mean, I'm not sure myself.  Feels like we need transparency!

I was just trying to make sense of Duane's tweet above.   The jump from 40% to CSA response as 80% relative can only mean one is looking at the total prize money while the other is considering only what is left after whatever deal they made.  Which if it doubles relatively, must be they signed away half that money in the deal. 

[InglewoodJack]

42 minutes ago, Big_M said:

We are now pretty much getting confirmation that demands of players were ridiculous and indeed untenable

 

 

The way this is phrased, sounds like his sources are all that the CSA.

[Big_M]

11 minutes ago, Admin said:

Not sure that is what is being talked about.  The Gross/Net here and the % have to do with the amount of money coming in from the WC and how that is distributed. 

There is 10 million prize money.
CSA bargained some of that away. 
Players are talking about % of that prize money
CSA I am guessing is talking in terms of what is left, players in terms of the total, hence the relative doubling of the % in the CSA response.   It only doubles if they signed half away. I don't think anyone is talking about taxes.

EDIT ( I have NO idea if this true or even pointing at the truth)

Its precisely about taxes and both are talking about the 10 million

CSA is offering 30% gross to the men which is 3 million

Players want 40% net which is after taxes which is closer to 80%, meaning around 8 million. Total of that demand brings it over the 10 million which makes it untenable

[Kent]

16 hours ago, cornerkick said:

i'm looking at the 2021 annual report now, and there's one chart for breakdown of source of funds, and it looks to jive with what's in the 2021 financial statements (statement of ops).   that's the only financial related thing i saw in the annual report.  don't know about the use of funds breakdown, haven't looked into it...

 

 

 

you've got links to the 2021 annual report, and the 2020 statements...that might be why they're not reconciling for you??

Since the CSB deal is being painted as a bad deal for the CMNT, does anyone have numbers like this for years before the CSB deal? So 2017 and 2018? I feel like money from sponsorships and media rights from CSB would be in that "Commercial and other fees" portion, which seems bigger than my impression was in the slightly older days. Did that piece of the pie go up or down after CSB got involved? People are talking like it must have plummeted, but I wonder if it has actually gone up.

I'm sure the Sportsnet money went to OneSoccer. Sure, in a world where the CSA didn't make a deal with CSB and effectively OneSoccer they would have been free to make that deal with Sportsnet. But they also probably would have gotten nothing for Nations League games, and the first 6 World Cup Qualifiers.

As for questions about how could the CSA pay for youth national teams, etc, before this new found money, WE HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING FOR YEARS THAT THEY DON'T INVEST ENOUGH IN THOSE PROGRAMS! We are always complaining that they don't have enough camps, we are always under prepared, we don't hire good coaches. These are all problems that increased investment can help solve.

I don't know which side is more in the right at this point. Transparency is important, and is totally necessary in order to really be able to draw conclusions. Right now I don't think either side looks all that great.

And we really better play these Nations League games coming up. We have qualified for the World Cup, but I feel like we are treading on thin ice and I am starting to get worried that if this fiasco continues we could get ourselves kicked out. All we have to do is not get banned, let's please do that! We've already pissed off Iran and Panama, let's not add Curacao, Honduras, and CONCACAF/FIFA to that list.

[Admin]

8 minutes ago, Big_M said:

Its precisely about taxes and both are talking about the 10 million

CSA is offering 30% gross to the men which is 3 million

Players want 40% net which is after taxes which is closer to 80%, meaning around 8 million. Total of that demand brings it over the 10 million which makes it untenable

The reason I am suggesting it is not about taxes, and it may well be as you are saying... is that there is a deal with CSB/OS/Mediapro which eats a some chunk of that prize money.   The players even mention that deal in their statement, which is why I am more likely to think that is where the the differing % come from and not taxes. 

But I have to keep stressing, I am speculating like everyone else. 

[ensco]

26 minutes ago, Admin said:

Not sure that is what is being talked about.  The Gross/Net here and the % have to do with the amount of money coming in from the WC and how that is distributed. 

There is 10 million prize money.
CSA bargained some of that away. 
Players are talking about % of that prize money
CSA I am guessing is talking in terms of what is left, players in terms of the total, hence the relative doubling of the % in the CSA response.   It only doubles if they signed half away. I don't think anyone is talking about taxes.

EDIT ( I have NO idea if this true or even pointing at the truth)

I read it this way also.

I think the difference between gross and net is mostly/entirely the CSB (and Mediapro?) portion. 

When people say “Belgium MNT gets 12.5%” we need to understand that there is no CSB equivalent in Belgium, and no need therefore to talk about gross and net.

We need to know what CSB gets from the $10M WC prize pot to fully understand. It's different and over-and-above the $3M a year described in the Star overnight. 

I think we need the Minister of Sport involved. FIFA or no FIFA, I don’t see a way around it. The CSA sold away something the players rightly feel wasn’t available for the CSA to sell.

Edited June 6, 2022 by ensco

[Admin]

3 minutes ago, ensco said:

I read it this way also.

I think the difference between gross and net is mostly/entirely the CSB (and Mediapro?) portion. 
 

Yes, all I was trying to do was figure out Duane's use of net.  The only way the the ensuing numbers make sense is if if Duane meant Gross (as in the total before the Mediapro deal)

[prairiecanuck]

17 minutes ago, Admin said:

The reason I am suggesting it is not about taxes, and it may well be as you are saying... is that there is a deal with CSB/OS/Mediapro which eats a some chunk of that prize money.   The players even mention that deal in their statement, which is why I am more likely to think that is where the the differing % come from and not taxes. 

But I have to keep stressing, I am speculating like everyone else. 

Well we need to get some clarity.  CSB shouldn't get a penny of that 10 mil.  If they are getting a percentage of this prize pool money, that's ridiculous.  

[El Hombre]

14 minutes ago, Admin said:

Yes, all I was trying to do was figure out Duane's use of net.  The only way the the ensuing numbers make sense is if if Duane meant Gross (as in the total before the Mediapro deal)

Yes, that is how I read it.

$10 Million is the total amount.  The players want 40% of that which is 4 million.  However, some of that money is already spoken for.  Let's say that amount is 50% or 5 million.  Therefore the CSA only has 5 million to hand out.  If the players still want 4 million, then their portion jumps from 40% of what is given to the CSA from FIFA to 80% of what is actually available for the CSA to distribute.

Edited June 6, 2022 by El Hombre

[Kadenge]

20 minutes ago, Big_M said:

Its precisely about taxes and both are talking about the 10 million

CSA is offering 30% gross to the men which is 3 million

Players want 40% net which is after taxes which is closer to 80%, meaning around 8 million. Total of that demand brings it over the 10 million which makes it untenable

I'm sure the players & their agents can do simple math. Why would they ask for more than  $10M? There was no clarity during the press conference on this crucial matter. I suspect the CSA does not get the full $10M

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, Big_M said:

We are now pretty much getting confirmation that demands of players were ridiculous and indeed untenable

 

 

This is totally unacceptable boys. Ok tell em to stick it up their you know what

Ok now what's it gonna be tonight fellas.. Cactus or Earls?

[prairiecanuck]

2 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Yes, that is how I read it.

$10 Million is the total amount.  The players want 40% of that which is 4 million.  However, some of that money is already spoken for.  Let's say that amount is 50% or 5 million.  Therefore the CSA only has 5 million to hand out.  If the players still want 4 million, then their portion jumps from 40% of what is given to the CSA from FIFA to 80% of what is actually available for the CSA to distribute.

Where is that money going?  There is the possibility we make the knockout stage and get more than 10 mil. 

[El Hombre]

Just now, prairiecanuck said:

Where is that money going?  There is the possibility we make the knockout stage and get more than 10 mil. 

I don't know the ins and outs of it, I was just explaining the math.

It could be going a number of places (taxes, CSB, CSA posturing etc.) but I have no idea.

[Kadenge]

2 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

Yes, that is how I read it.

$10 Million is the total amount.  The players want 40% of that which is 4 million.  However, some of that money is already spoken for.  Let's say that amount is 50% or 5 million.  Therefore the CSA only has 5 million to hand out.  If the players still want 4 million, then their portion jumps from 40% of what is given to the CSA from FIFA to 80% of what is actually available for the CSA to distribute.

So why didn't Bontis address this yesterday? I mean he went into funding for Futsal, Para Olympics, youth teams etc to explain why the CSA cant afford to meet the players requests, when the 10M is a one time special bonus payment by FIFA

[TGAA_Star]

I wouldn't be surprised if money issues are the reason why Canada's team crashes out of Qatar. Same thing happened to us Ghanaians in 2014 in Brazil especially within our camp about money issues and it caused in fighting within the squad which caused us to crash out of Brazil back in 2014. It looks like Canada may be headed down that same path.

[Mattd97]

1 minute ago, Kadenge said:

So why didn't Bontis address this yesterday? I mean he went into funding for Futsal, Para Olympics, youth teams etc to explain why the CSA cant afford to meet the players requests, when the 10M is a one time special bonus payment by FIFA

the obvious answer (no clue if its the right one) is that those make him look good and the other does not