The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[shermanator]

Got through the Footy Prime / Westhead interviews.

Was great to hear some of the most prominent voices in the game in Canada interview the journalist (who admits in the interview he doesn't know soccer) who is exposing what he is. Was a great listen. He thought that Canada Soccer would be in a far better place a year from now. 

My pitchfork is lowered towards Rick on this one for now. I would like to read some positive stories from him when then are available. Not expecting anything on that front.

[Ally McCoist]

24 minutes ago, ghostknownunknown said:

Alright, so I knew the person responsible for flying a drone (not necessarily THE drone) adjacent to the Honduras training in late August 2021. They were an employee at appleby college, where the Honduran team were training. This person has no relationship with Canada Soccer. The reason for taking the drone footage was nothing other routine promotional footage from the kids summer camp happening at the college.
 

I don’t know how to reconcile this with Rick Westhead’s reporting that the team watched footage from these sessions. I DM’d him earlier today on twitter to share my information and sources. I was immediately blocked. Oh well.

Rick Westhead doesn't care about opposing viewpoints. He only likes to cherry pick information that feeds his own biases and motives.

[Gian-Luca]

40 minutes ago, ghostknownunknown said:

Alright, so I know the person responsible for flying a drone (not necessarily THE drone) adjacent to the Honduras training in late August 2021. They were an employee at appleby college, where the Honduran team were training. This person has no relationship with Canada Soccer. The reason for taking the drone footage was nothing other routine promotional footage from the kids summer camp happening at the college.
 

I don’t know how to reconcile this with Rick Westhead’s reporting that the team watched footage from these sessions. I DM’d him earlier today on twitter to share my information and sources. I was immediately blocked. Oh well.

Maybe Herdman obtained the drone footage from Appleby College after the Hondurans publicly reported that they saw a drone? 

[ghostknownunknown]

2 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Maybe Herdman obtained the drone footage from Appleby College after the Hondurans publicly reported that they saw a drone? 

That would be very very unlikely based on what I know. 

[Gian-Luca]

30 minutes ago, ghostknownunknown said:

That would be very very unlikely based on what I know. 

Hmm.... well if Herdman didn't commission/instigate the drone usage in the first place for this match and he also didn't request a copy of the footage once he heard about it, the next scenario would be the drone footage user contacting Herdman and saying "Hey, I've got this footage, do you want it?" and Herdman saying "Sure!"

🤷‍♂️ I am just speculating, I would have thought that Herdman commissioning a scout/analyst to fly the drone was the most likely situation, but if it actually had nothing to do with him and the report of him showing it to the players is accurate, it must have got to him somehow. Unless the latter report is a bunch of baloney of course.

Edited August 3 by Gian-Luca

[Ed_S]

1 hour ago, shermanator said:

Got through the Footy Prime / Westhead interviews.

Was great to hear some of the most prominent voices in the game in Canada interview the journalist (who admits in the interview he doesn't know soccer) who is exposing what he is. Was a great listen. He thought that Canada Soccer would be in a far better place a year from now. 

My pitchfork is lowered towards Rick on this one for now. I would like to read some positive stories from him when then are available. Not expecting anything on that front.

I'm giving him a thumbs up on the drone investigation but those "prominent voices" were strangely silent on  his discussion of the CSA/CSB angle to not challenge his statement on how CSB gets all the money, without talking about payments to the CSA and how they had next to nothing coming in from advertising when the deal was done

[Bison44]

1 hour ago, Ed_S said:

I'm giving him a thumbs up on the drone investigation but those "prominent voices" were strangely silent on  his discussion of the CSA/CSB angle to not challenge his statement on how CSB gets all the money, without talking about payments to the CSA and how they had next to nothing coming in from advertising when the deal was done

Thats context, Amy questioned him about his lack of knowledge and context etc and he said give me an example.  She didnt have one ready (or she was being nice) and he switched it to its great to be in a free country not venezuela etc free reporting etc. Kudos to her for asking the hard question, but he ducked it and Forrest/Brennan sat silent for most of the interview and didnt press him on his previous reporting.  This was after he admited he didnt know the players (Daivd/Eustaq) so didnt even have a light sprinkling of knowledge about soccer in canada until a few years ago.   He then basically admitted he was acting as a mouthpiece for the players viewpoint.  Its one thing when your an advocate for a rape victim (ie junior hockey thing), there cant be another side to a criminal evil act,  this is a totally different beast.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

As many have observed, the interview is mostly a sham and I find it embarrassing. 

There are only a few tidbits that help justify his position, like the interest of TSN in certain sports. He refers to stories that perhaps damaged certain sports that TSN carries, so that is not a bad argument.

For me it is the only justification even close. The other is that because of his reputation he's received messages from people with stories about drone or spying of practices, which are clearly sincere and conflicted. That is it as I see it. 

Because the Footy Prime people are so weak-minded and meander worse than an ageing Ali, and are so unconcerned about being remotely journalistic, except Walsh, they just let him say what he wants. I understand you invite him on and the point is not to rake him over the coals, it is not the function of the podcast. So they let him off on key flaws, some of which are just laughable falsifications.

They never at any point ask what the problem is with CPL for TSN. Why he lacks total understanding of its importance. That without it we don't get a World Cup, we don't have hundreds more Canadians playing pro, we don't meet a minimum found everywhere in the world of having a league, serving fans in non-MLS cities as well. He just repeats the slogan that CSB is only to help a private league, ignoring its importance, refusing to ever speak to any players or others involved in the league. He ghosts CPL. 

Then, there is no acknowledgment that he was used by the players to serve a biased agenda about payments from the CSA, which scapegoats CSB. Westhead uses his selective contacts and then serves their interests, to the point that both the men and the women have ended up embarrassing themselves in numerous occasions. 

The other serious error that he tries to rectify in a very dishonest way his story on Copa America losing us money. He first skews what he actually wrote, rewriting it to save face. Then he gives a totally mistaken version of CSA finances in relation to it. According to him we only got 4 million to get to semis and half goes to the players, leaving the CSA 2 million to pay for the "camps", concluding we broke even. This is totally false and he knows it. 

Our trips to Netherlands and France were paid for by the hosts with appearance fees, they covered more than the cost and we were ahead. When both federations release their financials for 2024 we'll see what it was, it could likely have been half a million euros in each case and travel, hotels, training facilities, on top of that. I am speculating based on what I have heard over the years when the Catalan federation invites a team for a friendly, or the Spanish. Our deal with Panama for the boycotted friendly at BC Place was not even that far off those numbers. 

Then we had a 2 million appearance fee from the start which would have covered, by his numbers, the cost of playing in Copa America. After that, everything was a benefit, the 4 million US for making semi finals and losing the 3rd place match. So that is a 4 million benefit plus the friendly appearance fees, we are talking about a benefit over costs of what would be about 7 million Canadian. 

All he has to do is ask the CSA, but he won't, it does not serve the method.

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, Ally McCoist said:

Rick Westhead doesn't care about opposing viewpoints. He only likes to cherry pick information that feeds his own biases and motives.

Did you listen to the interview?

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

They never at any point ask what the problem is with CPL for TSN. Why he lacks total understanding of its importance. That without it we don't get a World Cup, we don't have hundreds more Canadians playing pro, we don't meet a minimum found everywhere in the world of having a league, serving fans in non-MLS cities as well. He just repeats the slogan that CSB is only to help a private league, ignoring its importance, refusing to ever speak to any players or others involved in the league. He ghosts CPL. 

I'll continue to say that "without it we don't get a World Cup" is probably not true.  It's a good narrative for CSB, it is in the bid-book, but FIFA will always do whatever FIFA thinks is in their best interest.  No league?  Don't worry about it - we'll count MLS.  And in a more general sense, in terms of the CPL it's not his job to justify what is/isn't shown on TSN.  I'll be honest, I didn't expect this interview to involve CPL and it's importance as a topic.

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Then we had a 2 million appearance fee from the start which would have covered, by his numbers, the cost of playing in Copa America. After that, everything was a benefit, the 4 million US for making semi finals and losing the 3rd place match. So that is a 4 million benefit plus the friendly appearance fees, we are talking about a benefit over costs of what would be about 7 million Canadian. 

All he has to do is ask the CSA, but he won't, it does not serve the method.

You're right, I would like to hear more about how he generated the $4 million number.  He mentioned $8m as well (as being the "wrong" number) and I don't think any of us have said it was that much.  Will be interesting when the numbers come out at year end.

I know you listed a couple of positive comments from the interview, but I'll add that he seems to respect Kevin Blue and thinks that was a good hire for the organization as well.

I think the interview is worthwhile. It answered some questions/complaints people have had on here ("why doesn't he name his sources", for instance). I'm sure a lot of people will still be unsatisfied, and there's still points to discuss/disagree on, but that's how it is with a lot of stories.

[Unnamed Trialist]

42 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I'll continue to say that "without it we don't get a World Cup" is probably not true.  It's a good narrative for CSB, it is in the bid-book, but FIFA will always do whatever FIFA thinks is in their best interest.  No league?  Don't worry about it - we'll count MLS.  And in a more general sense, in terms of the CPL it's not his job to justify what is/isn't shown on TSN.  I'll be honest, I didn't expect this interview to involve CPL and it's importance as a topic.

I think folks are totally underestimating the CPL and its importance for the World Cup bid. 

Yes, it is in the candidates book. It was also sitting there for a long time as pending for basically one country in the world, Canada. The moves Montagliani makes as head of Concacaf can only be explained by this demand, the economic model of the league, the relative speed they put it together from announcement to the first match, how they get MediaPro interested (they come in well after the league is set up and the WC bid accepted), and then the CSB deal. There was no reason to be so precipitous about so many things if they did not have the FIFA requisite in their minds. 

FIFA could easily have given the WC to the US and Mexico, they repeat host countries quite frequently. They don't need Canada to make a legitimate bid. FIFA likes it, as we see with the Spain Morocco Portugal bid (which includes three S American countries), but if anyone thinks Canada's presence on the candidacy was a deal breaker they're deluded. We are in fact offering two undersized stadiums and our host cities are far from being amongst the best for 2026.

[Watchmen]

22 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

FIFA could easily have given the WC to the US and Mexico, they repeat host countries quite frequently. They don't need Canada to make a legitimate bid. FIFA likes it, as we see with the Spain Morocco Portugal bid (which includes three S American countries), but if anyone thinks Canada's presence on the candidacy was a deal breaker they're deluded. We are in fact offering two undersized stadiums and our host cities are far from being amongst the best for 2026.

I agree, but that's also why I don't think the CPL (or lack of it) is the deal breaker.  I think FIFA wanted a presence in Canada, and if there was enough we could do for them (ie provide adequate candidate cities, meet their tax-regulations, etc) then they'd be more than willing to overlook not having the CPL.

I mean, Vancouver withdrew from the bidding process, missed all sorts of inspections, and is now a host city.  Because FIFA would rather have Vancouver than Edmonton.  FIFA does what is best for FIFA, regardless of what the bid book says.

Edited August 3 by Watchmen

[narduch]

Sorry. You can't convince me Westhead doesn't have an agenda.

Why drop this nothingburger story now? He's trying to keep the controversy going with this lame ass piece.

 

 

Edited August 3 by narduch

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Maybe Herdman obtained the drone footage from Appleby College after the Hondurans publicly reported that they saw a drone? 

Maybe I am missing something but think footage I have seen of the drone incident involving Honduras appeared to imply that a training session at BMO Field was involved.

 

[Gian-Luca]

5 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Maybe I am missing something but think footage I have seen of the drone incident involving Honduras appeared to imply that a training session at BMO Field was involved.

 

The only actual footage of a drone flying over BMO that I have seen was the footage of the drone that flew over the Canadian practice before the ES game at BMO which caused Herdman to stop the practice. I haven't seen any footage of the alleged Honduras drone incident. Although I suppose it's possible that three drones were being used by three different parties. To be honest though, if that's the case and Tyler Adams & co are correct that everyone spies on each other anyway, it's tough not to take the same philosophy as Vanni Sartini (a guy I rarely agree with) that they shouldn't bother with any restrictions on scouting practices anyway.

[CanadaFan123]

How hilariously phony of Westhead to do that interview lakeside. “Hey, look everyone I’m just a good ole Canadian boy trying to save a sport I know nothing about in good faith”. Guy looks like absolute shite btw. Going to take a wild guess here and say that he has a shrine of 6th place ribbons somewhere. I wonder if a condition of his interview was that he couldn’t be questioned on any of his past false reporting. 
 

@narduch he’s going to ride the wave as long as it has oxygen. I’m sure he has some hit pieces lined up on the NHL in time for the start of training camp. 
 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^the type of bewilderment that happens when a certain type of poster encounters somebody with a moral compass who will pursue the truth no matter where it leads without fear or favour. If certain moronic individuals from the CWNT staff had not flown a drone over New Zealand's training sessions despite the high security that accompanies an Olympic Games none of this would be happening. Once something like that happens investigative journalists are going to investigate. The main reason these stories are still appearing is that around a dozen insiders have approached Rick Westhead so far and sung like canaries.

Edited August 3 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[CanadaFan123]

9 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^the type of bewilderment that happens when a certain type of poster encounters somebody with a moral compass who will pursue the truth no matter where it leads without fear or favour. If certain moronic individuals from the CWNT staff had not flown a drone over New Zealand's training sessions despite the high security that accompanies an Olympic Games none of this would be happening. Once something like that happens investigative journalists are going to investigate. The main reason these stories are still appearing is that around a dozen insiders have approached Rick Westhead so far and sung like canaries.

Speaking of morons who play loose with the truth, here comes Ozzie. 

Once again, you can’t critically read. Where did I criticize him for the drone story? I don’t care about the drone story as it’s true. What I’m calling out is his false reporting that goes unquestioned and is swept under the rug. I.e. the Copa America story. 

Pursuing the truth without fear or favour? You’re having a laugh. If this guy had a truly moral compass he would have offered a retraction - you know, like journalism used to do before it died. 

 

Edited August 3 by CanadaFan123

[narduch]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^the type of bewilderment that happens when a certain type of poster encounters somebody with a moral compass who will pursue the truth no matter where it leads without fear or favour. 

This is a hilarious statement. There is no threat to his career posting these stories. 

And writing one sided stories pushing other people's agendas is hardly the mark of integrity. 

And as I said before, Westhead could probably do a story on how his hockey insider colleagues (MacKenzie, Dreger, Kypreos, Servelli, etc) have helped supress the sexual assault in hockey issues. But he knows better to not do that 

He is no angel.

Edited August 3 by narduch

[CanadaFan123]

Rick is akin to a politician. He’s done some really great reporting but then he does something shady and we’re supposed to just ignore it. Then you have the less intelligent portion of the population pointing to a straw man to defend him on the basis of the truthful stories. 

He has even perfected the politician posture right down to the look on his face. Very concerned about pursuing the truth but only in certain instances. As mentioned before, he is not an independent journalist - he works for a mega corporation. If you think you’re getting nothing but the truth you’re an absolute fool. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

One key part of journalism is picking what to report on and what not to.

It is as important a lot of the time as what you actually write. You can strategically be totally truthfully in some instances while lying by omission about others.

 

If your speciality is following the scandals, that's fair, but it also means you have a vested interest in there being scandals. 

Edited August 3 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[archer21]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As many have observed, the interview is mostly a sham and I find it embarrassing. 

There are only a few tidbits that help justify his position, like the interest of TSN in certain sports. He refers to stories that perhaps damaged certain sports that TSN carries, so that is not a bad argument.

For me it is the only justification even close. The other is that because of his reputation he's received messages from people with stories about drone or spying of practices, which are clearly sincere and conflicted. That is it as I see it. 

Because the Footy Prime people are so weak-minded and meander worse than an ageing Ali, and are so unconcerned about being remotely journalistic, except Walsh, they just let him say what he wants. I understand you invite him on and the point is not to rake him over the coals, it is not the function of the podcast. So they let him off on key flaws, some of which are just laughable falsifications.

They never at any point ask what the problem is with CPL for TSN. Why he lacks total understanding of its importance. That without it we don't get a World Cup, we don't have hundreds more Canadians playing pro, we don't meet a minimum found everywhere in the world of having a league, serving fans in non-MLS cities as well. He just repeats the slogan that CSB is only to help a private league, ignoring its importance, refusing to ever speak to any players or others involved in the league. He ghosts CPL. 

Then, there is no acknowledgment that he was used by the players to serve a biased agenda about payments from the CSA, which scapegoats CSB. Westhead uses his selective contacts and then serves their interests, to the point that both the men and the women have ended up embarrassing themselves in numerous occasions. 

The other serious error that he tries to rectify in a very dishonest way his story on Copa America losing us money. He first skews what he actually wrote, rewriting it to save face. Then he gives a totally mistaken version of CSA finances in relation to it. According to him we only got 4 million to get to semis and half goes to the players, leaving the CSA 2 million to pay for the "camps", concluding we broke even. This is totally false and he knows it. 

Our trips to Netherlands and France were paid for by the hosts with appearance fees, they covered more than the cost and we were ahead. When both federations release their financials for 2024 we'll see what it was, it could likely have been half a million euros in each case and travel, hotels, training facilities, on top of that. I am speculating based on what I have heard over the years when the Catalan federation invites a team for a friendly, or the Spanish. Our deal with Panama for the boycotted friendly at BC Place was not even that far off those numbers. 

Then we had a 2 million appearance fee from the start which would have covered, by his numbers, the cost of playing in Copa America. After that, everything was a benefit, the 4 million US for making semi finals and losing the 3rd place match. So that is a 4 million benefit plus the friendly appearance fees, we are talking about a benefit over costs of what would be about 7 million Canadian. 

All he has to do is ask the CSA, but he won't, it does not serve the method.

I agree with basically all of this post. I don’t think he’s necessarily malicious, but he’s just taking people’s words at face value. Players come to him with an agenda and he doesn’t understand the soccer landscape enough to be able to verify the things he’s being told.

Saying we “broke even” on Copa is insane, but I kind of think he really believes that. Which is very poor for a reporter who’s kind of taken it upon himself to be the main voice for these things. 
 

Walsh was the only interviewer with any real hard hitting questions. She seemed to go in there trying to get some real answers instead of fawning over the guy like the rest of them. She really missed an opportunity though when asked for examples. I think she just wasn’t expecting Rick to come back to her with that question and wasn’t prepared. It was very poor from her, but she’s not necessarily an experienced journalist so it’s hard to overly critique her. 
 

The main issue with Rick is his lack of soccer knowledge really hinders him. I don’t think he’s lying or has an agenda, he’s just not knowledgeable enough. He doesn’t know about the things you mention like the camp costs being covered by the hosts. If he’s going to try to be a major reporter on these issues, he really needs to educate himself on some of these details.

[Aird25]

5 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I agree, but that's also why I don't think the CPL (or lack of it) is the deal breaker.  I think FIFA wanted a presence in Canada, and if there was enough we could do for them (ie provide adequate candidate cities, meet their tax-regulations, etc) then they'd be more than willing to overlook not having the CPL.

I mean, Vancouver withdrew from the bidding process, missed all sorts of inspections, and is now a host city.  Because FIFA would rather have Vancouver than Edmonton.  FIFA does what is best for FIFA, regardless of what the bid book says.

Am I wrong in thinking the league and terms of some of their business agreements were pretty clearly designed around the 2026 World Cup bid? I recall that being pretty  clear in the messaging when the league was announced. The long-term deals with CSA and Mediapro were presented as insuring survival until after the world cup because that is what was needed to be one of the host nations 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

One key part of journalism is picking what to report on and what not to....

This is why he emphasizes that multiple sources have corroborated the information. Given the scope for legal action it's safe to assume all his stories are run past a corporate lawyer and only see the light of day when there is a high degree of confidence on TSN's part that the information being reported is accurate. 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

Am I wrong in thinking the league and terms of some of their business agreements were pretty clearly designed around the 2026 World Cup bid? I recall that being pretty  clear in the messaging when the league was announced. The long-term deals with CSA and Mediapro were presented as insuring survival until after the world cup because that is what was needed to be one of the host nations 

I think we all agree it was built around 2026, but that's also because it's likely a critical moment for the league: either the WC creates new fans ready to support the CPL or it doesn't. Every owner will use 2026/27 as the moment to decide if it's worth continuing.