The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Ansem]

27 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

Where is this 42% number coming from?  How much sponsorship revenue is the CPL actually bringing in?

During the parliamentary hearing, the CSA said that CSB made $8.2M in revenue last year. Even if we assume that they paid the CSA only $3.5M although I think it's closer to $4M - 3.5 out of 8.2 gives you over 42.5% that CSB paid the CSA.

If it was indeed $4M, that would be over 48.5% paid to the CSA.

No the CSB isn't "bankrupting" the CSA.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Ansem

[grigorio]

8 hours ago, king1010 said:

Are you talking about match fixing and betting on that? 

lol what no. If top players sit out in protest, then Canada loses more. If Canada loses more, there's less fan interest, less gate revenue, less sponsorship revenue, etc etc... All of this is only a problem because we're momentarily good. If we go back to sucking well then fighting over revenue goes away since there will be even less. 

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

During the parliamentary hearing, the CSA said that CSB made $8.2M in revenue last year. Even if we assume that they paid the CSA only $3.5M although I think it's closer to $4M - 3.5 out of 8.2 gives you over 42.5% that CSB paid the CSA.

If it was indeed $4M, that would be over 48.5% paid to the CSA.

It's not $4m. It's not even $3.5m until 2027.

Of that $8.2m, do we know what was earned by the CMNT, the CWNT, and the CPL? Legitimately asking.

[Cheeta]

7 hours ago, Bigandy said:

You realize that the new faces were not around during the world cup, right? If the old regime were relying on bonus payments for 1% of operating budgets in 2023 to pay for the costs of 2022 then thats not on the new regime. Maybe give the new regime time to create their own budgets before calling them rot. This doesnt even consider the debate whether prize money is or isnt best utilized in operating budgets (where else should it go?). ridiculous.

This post is literally looking to tear down the CSA to the point of being unreasonable. 

Not a thing to do with "the old regime".  What old regine?  Bontis?  Bontis' deal is dead, taken off of the table by the current secretary general Jason de Vos and Co. who have presented the current offer which has made the current MNT players feel so aggrieved.  Don't know how I could possibly be any more current than that. 

Prize money is found money.  Money you never had.  I don't run my household budget on the hopes I win $600 taking a punt on Canada at the Nations League.  If I did I'd be even dumber than some around here know I am. 

And it doesn't matter what I think or you think or they think about where prize money should be allocated.  It matters what the players think.  And if they have a problem with what Soccer Canada thinks is their fair share of prize money then we all have a problem.  And I, for one, am not inclined to fight a battle with the most valuable assets Soccer Canada has, the players, over "found money".

That, to my mind anyway, would be most unreasonable. 

P.S.  At the end of the day I think everyone knows Soccer Canada is just going to determine what share of Prize Money will go to the players and there is nothing the players can do about it.  It's that simple.  Soccer Canada will win that battle.  It could lose them the war though. 

 

 

 

[Cheeta]

8 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Really, weren't a huge amount of the costs incurred associated with getting there and putting the players up? I thought the financial situation was largely a result of increased costs and decreased revenue

I would love to know how, exactly, Soccer Canada didn't come out of our most successful WCQ campaign ever holding bags and bags of money.  More than enough bags of money to finance a wee working holiday to the Persian Gulf.  

Like I wrote.  Me?  I know it's impossible but I want to know.  I think most of the players couldn't give a damn.  Simply because they wouldn't trust Soccer Canada enough to not cook the books or care if they didn't and the numbers were underwhelming.  I think everyone expected that WCQ couldn't be anything but a absolute financial windfall.

Of course, I think we all were also expecting that Soccer Canada's kit sponsor, Nike, would have a fresh kit for Canada at Qatar.  You know, like they did for every other team Nike fitted for the Finals.  

[Watchmen]

6 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

Of course, I think we all were also expecting that Soccer Canada's kit sponsor, Nike, would have a fresh kit for Canada at Qatar.  You know, like they did for every other team Nike fitted for the Finals.  

I think we all expected them to have a kit deal that paid them more than $0, but we didn't get that either. And that had nothing to do with CSB.

[Aird25]

9 hours ago, Cheeta said:

I would love to know how, exactly, Soccer Canada didn't come out of our most successful WCQ campaign ever holding bags and bags of money.  More than enough bags of money to finance a wee working holiday to the Persian Gulf.  

Like I wrote.  Me?  I know it's impossible but I want to know.  I think most of the players couldn't give a damn.  Simply because they wouldn't trust Soccer Canada enough to not cook the books or care if they didn't and the numbers were underwhelming.  I think everyone expected that WCQ couldn't be anything but a absolute financial windfall.

Of course, I think we all were also expecting that Soccer Canada's kit sponsor, Nike, would have a fresh kit for Canada at Qatar.  You know, like they did for every other team Nike fitted for the Finals.  

Just listen to Craig Forrest from when the news initially broke. All the valuable rights for big tournaments are owned by federations or otherwise. We hardly ever play friendlies at home. There are far more advertising opportunities during a CPL season than there are for the few national team games we get a year

Edited July 27, 2023 by Aird25

[Mattd97]

10 hours ago, Ansem said:

During the parliamentary hearing, the CSA said that CSB made $8.2M in revenue last year. Even if we assume that they paid the CSA only $3.5M although I think it's closer to $4M - 3.5 out of 8.2 gives you over 42.5% that CSB paid the CSA.

If it was indeed $4M, that would be over 48.5% paid to the CSA.

No the CSB isn't "bankrupting" the CSA.

I would think, looking at it from the players perspective which likely undervalues how much the CSB is responsible for those funds cause they believe that the players themselves are the ones bringing it in by being marketable, that they see that as the CSB stealing 57.5/51.5% of CSAs money

Edited July 27, 2023 by Mattd97

[Ottawafan]

12 hours ago, Ansem said:

Easy to say when it's not your money at risk and you're not the one pumping more cash into a venture that won't get you a return for years or decades.

This is a very entitled way to look at things and if they choose to withdraw entirely, who's going to step in? The government? Bell and Rogers? The Saudis?

You're acting like David, Davies, Eustaquios grows on trees. Without a functional program and a pyramid, we'll go back to the dark ages in no time. You're kidding yourself if you think 3 MLS clubs can keep this going

Again, nobody is putting a gun to the heads of the owners of the league.  Socialism for the rich, capitalism of the rest of us.

The CSA plays little or no role in the development of players.  Hosting a camp or playing the odd game has no significance in the player they become.  

I am not advocating against the CPL. It is necessary for the game to grow in Canada.  

[Ottawafan]

11 hours ago, grigorio said:

lol what no. If top players sit out in protest, then Canada loses more. If Canada loses more, there's less fan interest, less gate revenue, less sponsorship revenue, etc etc... All of this is only a problem because we're momentarily good. If we go back to sucking well then fighting over revenue goes away since there will be even less. 

Which doesn't hurt the players.  The CSA and the game suffers.

[Ansem]

9 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It's not $4m. It's not even $3.5m until 2027.

Of that $8.2m, do we know what was earned by the CMNT, the CWNT, and the CPL? Legitimately asking.

From what I keep seeing and what was said in the hearing it's at least $3.5M as there are already performance target increasing the payout.

Whatever the CSA gets from CSB is 100% up to them to decide where they spend it - we are still talking about over 3 times what they used to make prior to CSB. The CSB cut is up to them to decide what to do with it. I'm guessing that paying for CSB/CPL staff and operations, League 1 Canada projects, legal fees to fight the telecom blocking the league's access to cable and the rest going to owners to help lessen the league losses is how CSB is spending their cut.

 

1 hour ago, Mattd97 said:

I would think, looking at it from the players perspective which likely undervalues how much the CSB is responsible for those funds cause they believe that the players themselves are the ones bringing it in by being marketable, that they see that as the CSB stealing 57.5/51.5% of CSAs money

Exactly! This isn't hockey where sponsors throws themselves at the NHL and Hockey Canada (used to until the scandals). You need competent staff and an organization to go out there, make the pitches and convince them to invest in this sports --> This costs money.

I don't know who's advising the players but their math and understanding of the business is plain wrong

[Ansem]

Agreed 

 

[Ivan]

I think Oli summed up my feelings perfectly. 

[Bigandy]

On 7/26/2023 at 9:33 PM, Cheeta said:

Not a thing to do with "the old regime".  What old regine?  Bontis?  Bontis' deal is dead, taken off of the table by the current secretary general Jason de Vos and Co. who have presented the current offer which has made the current MNT players feel so aggrieved.  Don't know how I could possibly be any more current than that. 

Prize money is found money.  Money you never had.  I don't run my household budget on the hopes I win $600 taking a punt on Canada at the Nations League.  If I did I'd be even dumber than some around here know I am. 

And it doesn't matter what I think or you think or they think about where prize money should be allocated.  It matters what the players think.  And if they have a problem with what Soccer Canada thinks is their fair share of prize money then we all have a problem.  And I, for one, am not inclined to fight a battle with the most valuable assets Soccer Canada has, the players, over "found money".

That, to my mind anyway, would be most unreasonable. 

P.S.  At the end of the day I think everyone knows Soccer Canada is just going to determine what share of Prize Money will go to the players and there is nothing the players can do about it.  It's that simple.  Soccer Canada will win that battle.  It could lose them the war though. 

 

 

 

I think you may be confusing some things. 

The CBA was ripped up by devos. However, the outcome of the CBA is just one part of the operational budget. If you are criticizing the budget of 2022 and 2023, then that operational budget was set by the old regime. You have essentially equated the CBA and an operational budget.  Unless of course, you are saying that not a single cent of prize money should go to the federation? 

Prize money is not found money, its earned money much like a commission or even variable revenue such as the amount they generate at games. The CSA will have likely created several different budgets that vary in levels of optimism. It would be horrible if the CSA did not consider the possibility of acquiring an extra 6million and then suddenly it falls in their laps and are not prepared for it. I would much rather they have several projections so they can maximize every possible dollar. This is why there is contingency funds in place. 

Next, and this is a massive oversight in your logic, is that budgets can pivot. The operational budget for 2023-2026 would have likely included prize money allocation. We knew we were getting prize money when we created the 23 budget but hypothetically if we created a budget in 2022 for 2023 and we didnt get the prize money, then we still can easily just pivot. We can create a new operational budget that reduces costs. 

Finally, and this debunks your entire claim - the CSA never included prize money in the 2021 budget or prior. If they included the prize money in any budgets, its AFTER the secured it. Which would be for the 2023+ budgets. 

 I find it ridiculous to call the CSA rot when you are incorrectly over simplifying the term "found money" and implying that the CSA is spending prize money before they acquire it when that is simply just false......  

If you win $600 on nations league betting, are you not going to have a plan on how to spend it AFTER its in your wallet. Well thats exactly what CSA is doing. 
 

[dyslexic nam]

What an absolute clusterfuck.  

No matter which side of things you are on, a few of the comments made about the self-defeating tactic of dragging corporate sponsors into this stand-off seem pretty accurate.  The timing is also shit, and to me is probably the biggest indicator that the two teams are definitely not on the same page about how this lands.  And given that, the men’s idea of aggressively pushing this at this time seems really wrong-headed.

I know a couple on here will dismiss everyone who criticizes the players and accuse them of being apologists but I absolutely don’t understand how someone can look at all the facts and all the events that have taken place and have a blanket endorsement of the men’s position.  Hell, they aren’t even lined up with the other national team involved.  

I think the men and the women deserve a fair deal.  I want them to be happy with their arrangement with the CSA.  I want this to all go away.  

But in no world does that involve complete capitulation by the CSA given the current context.   The teams need to get on the same page and the demands need to reflect the fiscal reality.  Anything less will simply result in more unrealistic posturing.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[dyslexic nam]

The other thing worth noting within the overall issue is that the women really need to get a result against Australia.  With the labour dispute going on and the effort to get support for Project 8, it would be pretty underwhelming if they were to crash out in the opening round of the WWC.   

[canuckgbp]

As pointed out in the video above, I’d be curious how many and which which players are driving the bus in this.
 

Who decided on their representation? And who decides if they need new representation because this current “strategy” by the players is confusing and doesn’t seem to be getting anywhere. 
 

In fact, as Wheeler pointed out, they had a better offer before under the old regime then what’s on the table now. Curious. 

[grigorio]

50 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I know a couple on here will dismiss everyone who criticizes the players and accuse them of being apologists but I absolutely don’t understand how someone can look at all the facts and all the events that have taken place and have a blanket endorsement of the men’s position.  Hell, they aren’t even lined up with the other national team involved.  

Spoken like a true CSB boot-licking CSA apologist shill! How much of the hard-earned men's and women's dollars are they prying from their hands and paying you now!?

[dyslexic nam]

3 hours ago, grigorio said:

Spoken like a true CSB boot-licking CSA apologist shill! How much of the hard-earned men's and women's dollars are they prying from their hands and paying you now!?

I wish I was a paid shill.  Would love to buy a pool with my ill-gotten gains. 

[red card]

Women have signed a compensation deal for 2023 including WWC 23 prize monies. It was reached last Monday which explains why the men put out a statement.

It ensures at the minimum equal pay. But they say it isn't over. Due to Canada Soccer financial constraints, they were disappointed in making choices between comp & funding and getting their fair share of prize monies vs equal pay.

Canada Soccer told CBC that the deal is another important step. There is more work to do but this ensures equal pay.

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/soccer-womens-team-compensation-deal-1.6920967

 

[Gian-Luca]

4 hours ago, canuckgbp said:

In fact, as Wheeler pointed out, they had a better offer before under the old regime then what’s on the table now. Curious. 

And they have also said in their most recent "the CSB are evil"-laced statement that they weren't asking or demanding anything above the previous offer.

Which, if that is the case, begs the question - actually screams it - why didn't they take the earlier better offer?

 

[Cheeta]

12 hours ago, Bigandy said:

...

If you win $600 on nations league betting, are you not going to have a plan on how to spend it AFTER its in your wallet.

....
 

LOL.  Nope. 

Gambling monies fall into my "Cheeta's VICE"  category, a rather large line item which breaks down into a a number of subcategories (beer budget, gambling, cigars and gun club amongst other things) and is quarantined from the household budget.  Has to be because it's really, really, unreliable.   

And since we're sharing budgeting practices....two Golden Rules with VICE money.

#1).  You never borrow from or lend to the VICE budget from household budget.  I don't anyway.

#2).  You never discuss the the funds (or lack of) in your VICE budget with the Mrs. I mean, obviously right?

Anywho...not addressing the rest of your response as I'll leave that rant for another time. Trust me on that.  I'm pretty sure anyone who's read our posts has a good idea on our perspectives on the issue

[Bison44]

Ugh, so the women say they dont want to talk about it and want to focus on WC.  The mens statement forces them to clarify their position the day before the HUGGEE game against the aussies.  Were the men trying to be dicks on purpose???  This sure feels like all these groups are really at cross purposes and only care about themselves.  

[Ottawafan]

On 7/27/2023 at 8:36 PM, Ansem said:

Agreed 

 

Love how Wheeler keeps looking down at his CSA pre approved talking points.

[Ruud]

On 7/28/2023 at 10:20 AM, dyslexic nam said:

The other thing worth noting within the overall issue is that the women really need to get a result against Australia.  With the labour dispute going on and the effort to get support for Project 8, it would be pretty underwhelming if they were to crash out in the opening round of the WWC.   

Or does a poor result reinforce the need for the league in Canada?