The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Meepmeep]

9 minutes ago, king1010 said:
 

The players can make this right by understanding the wholistic situation(youth, womens programs, cpl, NTs other than the USA, other pro sports leagues where 50% rev share is norm) and negotiating towards a reasonable settlement (where they will have to make concessions). 

Why is that burden placed on the players?   Why are they the ones told to sacrifice?

They did their job extremely well exceeded all expectations and qualified for the World Cup and now they should “get some humility” and give away the performance bonus they earned for making the world cup to cover for those that did not do their jobs well?   Especially when those jobs have nothing to do with playing the game.  
 

Hey National team player.  Not only is your job to play left back but you are also responsible for funding youth camps, the CPL AND there are some other staff that need to be paid too so sorry but your performance bonus is going towards that.  If you ask questions about where all the money is going then obviously you’re not fit to wear the shirt you millionaire ingrate!  

[Ansem]

51 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

Why is that burden placed on the players?   Why are they the ones told to sacrifice?

I thought they made good money at club level. They should also consider that performing for the NT also helps further their club career.

51 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

They did their job extremely well exceeded all expectations and qualified for the World Cup and now they should “get some humility” and give away the performance bonus they earned for making the world cup to cover for those that did not do their jobs well?   Especially when those jobs have nothing to do with playing the game.  

Can't believe I'm about to say this but - Americans are right.

• Congratulations, you "won" the WCQ but have yet to keep that level "consistently" nor "win trophies". You haven't proven anything yet.

When we had an opportunity at the NL and they didn't show up so yeah and looking at the women who wanted #2 compensation and are playing several level below that even this morning - yeah, some humility would be most welcome.

51 minutes ago, Meepmeep said:

Hey National team player.  Not only is your job to play left back but you are also responsible for funding youth camps, the CPL AND there are some other staff that need to be paid too so sorry but your performance bonus is going towards that.  If you ask questions about where all the money is going then obviously you’re not fit to wear the shirt you millionaire ingrate!  

So we should pay them whatever they "feel" they're worth (results shouldn't matter) and throw the rest of the program under the bus? That's a horrible way to manage and it his management responsibility to balance fair compensation while ensuring that other sectors of your business still functions... that's management 101.

There's a right way and wrong way to air your grievances - there's a process for that and no, you won't always get everything you want and you'll have to end up compromising - it's called the real world.*

*I just came out of a labour dispute myself

I've been unbelievably disappointed on how both national teams decided to handle this.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Ansem

[Ottawafan]

59 minutes ago, king1010 said:

Then what happens when the players sit out and nothing changes from the CSA’s offer because there isn’t a magic pot of money? 
 

The players can make this right by understanding the wholistic situation(youth, womens programs, cpl, NTs other than the USA, other pro sports leagues where 50% rev share is norm) and negotiating towards a reasonable settlement (where they will have to make concessions). 

Then the players keep playing professional while the CSA fails to qualify for Copa, fails to win any NL games and revenues will go in the tank because no fans will show up. 
Nobody wants this but the players will reach a point where they realize the CSA still won’t treat them fairly but will gladly use them to benefit the CSA. 

[Cheeta]

I dumb it down to one point.

If Canada Soccer depends 1% on FIFA prize money for their operating budget then that's just proof that for all the face changes these last few years that the rot still remains.  Ridiculous.

It does feel like as soon as the WWC Finals ends this dispute is going to get real.  Anyone criticizing the players now should hold on to their hats because boy oh boy are you going to get your chance to bark.

We're going to have a fun old time.

[Ansem]

22 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Then the players keep playing professional while the CSA fails to qualify for Copa, fails to win any NL games and revenues will go in the tank because no fans will show up. 
Nobody wants this but the players will reach a point where they realize the CSA still won’t treat them fairly but will gladly use them to benefit the CSA. 

Or casual/non fans of the sport (the majority) just ignore the whole thing and go back to NHL, NBA, MLB, CFL, NFL, MMA etc... The lack of awareness of where we are and what this market really is is baffling coming from the players. People will just go back to not give a damn and they'll go back to irrelevancy.

We aren't France or Brazil.

[gator]

7 hours ago, Aird25 said:

I’m pretty happy I get to watch pro soccer 10 minutes from home a couple times a month. I didn’t have that before CPL

That is exactly my feeling as well, Forge matches are so convenient and usually entertaining for me, it angers me when players, fans and some posters on here want to see that fail!

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Meepmeep said:

Why is that burden placed on the players?   Why are they the ones told to sacrifice?

They did their job extremely well exceeded all expectations and qualified for the World Cup and now they should “get some humility” and give away the performance bonus they earned for making the world cup to cover for those that did not do their jobs well?   Especially when those jobs have nothing to do with playing the game.  
 

Hey National team player.  Not only is your job to play left back but you are also responsible for funding youth camps, the CPL AND there are some other staff that need to be paid too so sorry but your performance bonus is going towards that.  If you ask questions about where all the money is going then obviously you’re not fit to wear the shirt you millionaire ingrate!  

You can turn the script. 

The CSA did a good job in providing the logistics and resources required to get to a WC amid a pandemic and insane costs and low revenue on CMNT games and player registrations. Yet we still have 2mil in the bank. We also have gotten a pro domestic league and hosting the WC. Without the CSA to hire john and host a WC, perhaps some duals dont commit and our program doesnt qualify for the WC. Sure the players did their job but its wild to assume the CSA did not contribute to the success of CMNT. Its a team effort. Why should the CSA front all the cost of qualifying for the WC and then not be able to recoup those losses with the prize money? 

Hey 12 year old kid in winnipeg. You're responsible for a bigger CSA fee to pay these superstars more money than what other comparably sized (revenue wise) federations pay.

Sure, we could split everything up. The CMNT can look after all their own logistics and marketing and then they can have claim to 100% of the prize money. However, theyll have to find a way of funding all these costs because revenue from player fees, provincial fees, club fees etc will all stick within the CSA. Youth national teams dont benefit the CSA at all other than the benefit it brings for future CMNT, so the CMNT will have to fund those too.  

Its unbelievable to take no part in paying the costs but assume you deserve all the profits.  

[Cheeta]

29 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Or casual/non fans of the sport (the majority) just ignore the whole thing and go back to NHL, NBA, MLB, CFL, NFL, MMA etc... The lack of awareness of where we are and what this market really is is baffling coming from the players. People will just go back to not give a damn and they'll go back to irrelevancy.

We aren't France or Brazil.

You would think the boys and girls over at Soccer Canada would understand that better than anyone else wouldn't you?

I mean they're the ones who have stewardship of the game in this country.

[Bigandy]

38 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

I dumb it down to one point.

If Canada Soccer depends 1% on FIFA prize money for their operating budget then that's just proof that for all the face changes these last few years that the rot still remains.  Ridiculous.

It does feel like as soon as the WWC Finals ends this dispute is going to get real.  Anyone criticizing the players now should hold on to their hats because boy oh boy are you going to get your chance to bark.

We're going to have a fun old time.

You realize that the new faces were not around during the world cup, right? If the old regime were relying on bonus payments for 1% of operating budgets in 2023 to pay for the costs of 2022 then thats not on the new regime. Maybe give the new regime time to create their own budgets before calling them rot. This doesnt even consider the debate whether prize money is or isnt best utilized in operating budgets (where else should it go?). ridiculous.

This post is literally looking to tear down the CSA to the point of being unreasonable. 

[Aird25]

47 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

If Canada Soccer depends 1% on FIFA prize money for their operating budget then that's just proof that for all the face changes these last few years that the rot still remains.  Ridiculous

Really, weren't a huge amount of the costs incurred associated with getting there and putting the players up? I thought the financial situation was largely a result of increased costs and decreased revenue

Edited July 26, 2023 by Aird25

[kacbru]

10 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

People need to decide whether they want to prioritize having successful national team programs or view Victor Montagliani's agenda of providing CSB with the funds necessary to keep struggling CanPL clubs such as York United operating at a level revolving around regular air travel that would likely not otherwise be possible as their key priority. There are other lower-budget and more readily sustainable ways that a domestic pro league could have been configured.

Yeah, if only there was a bus league, all the CSA problems would be solved.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, gator said:

That is exactly my feeling as well, Forge matches are so convenient and usually entertaining for me, it angers me when players, fans and some posters on here want to see that fail!

I don't think players want the CPL to fail. I think they just don't want funding for it coming out of their (perceived) pot of funding, considering they have no ownership stake.

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

I thought they made good money at club level. They should also consider that performing for the NT also helps further their club career.

We have heard routinely over the years from former NT players that playing for the NT is a detriment to their careers, not a help. 

[Ottawafan]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Or casual/non fans of the sport (the majority) just ignore the whole thing and go back to NHL, NBA, MLB, CFL, NFL, MMA etc... The lack of awareness of where we are and what this market really is is baffling coming from the players. People will just go back to not give a damn and they'll go back to irrelevancy.

We aren't France or Brazil.

Then ignore it.  Nobody is holding a gun to your head.  

[Ottawafan]

29 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I don't think players want the CPL to fail. I think they just don't want funding for it coming out of their (perceived) pot of funding, considering they have no ownership stake.

Especially when the owners in this league are worth over a billion dollars. 

[Ottawafan]

28 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

We have heard routinely over the years from former NT players that playing for the NT is a detriment to their careers, not a help. 

CSA needs the players more than they need the CSA.

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

CSA needs the players more than they need the CSA.

Thats false. 

The CSA could fold both national teams and basically provide high level logistics for youth/club soccer. Theyd have to downsize but they could still function without national teams.  Obv fifa would have some issues with us not putting out a national team squad but theres solutions to this. 

The players wouldnt be able to play international soccer without the CSA. Some could say they dont need to play internationally but most players dream of playing in a WC. Without the CSA, who's providing logistics for the national team squads? Who generates the funding for it? Surely the players dont have time or the skills to coordinate the logistics themselves, nor the ability to capture the revenue they could generate themselves. They'd have to higher people to do that.... Those people would be called CSA. 

[Aird25]

Deleted 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Aird25

[king1010]

5 hours ago, Meepmeep said:

Why is that burden placed on the players?   Why are they the ones told to sacrifice?

They did their job extremely well exceeded all expectations and qualified for the World Cup and now they should “get some humility” and give away the performance bonus they earned for making the world cup to cover for those that did not do their jobs well?   Especially when those jobs have nothing to do with playing the game.  
 

Hey National team player.  Not only is your job to play left back but you are also responsible for funding youth camps, the CPL AND there are some other staff that need to be paid too so sorry but your performance bonus is going towards that.  If you ask questions about where all the money is going then obviously you’re not fit to wear the shirt you millionaire ingrate!  

I never said dont give them their performance bonus. I was implying they have to make concessions. They cant take 90% of WC prize revenue like the states. It needs to be closer to 30 to 50% like fifpro, other WC teams and pro sports clubs have settled on. 
 

Also the players are a product of soccer in the country. The WC prize money isnt just for the players. Its for the infrastructure that got them there. Local clubs, youth national teams, csa programs etc. heck even the trainers who prep their boots. 

Edited July 26, 2023 by king1010

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I don't think players want the CPL to fail. I think they just don't want funding for it coming out of their (perceived) pot of funding, considering they have no ownership stake.

CSB gave around 42% of the sponsorship revenue to the CSA. Even if they gave 75% (which would have been a non starter) at around $6.1M - please tell me that you realized that this extra $2M doesn't address whatever issue the CSA has long term.

Hypotically (even highly unlikely), CSB plays balls and raise it to 75% - as a businessman you'd be worrying about "what's stopping the CSA from mismanaging their extra revenues and come back for another ballot when negotiations for the next CBA or players tantrum arises once more"?

No businesses just give away cash like that. 

I'm all for the CSB deal being improved but those who are arguing for something much more substantial are advocating for CSB bailing out the CSA... that's beyond unrealistic.

Not sure who's representing the players but I think they are doing a disservice to them. There's plenty of players labour disputes in North America where unions ended up making concessions across the top north American leagues.

This all or nothing approach or we'll be "kicking and screaming" like the federal government was characterizing striking publics servants who were paid the less is just not how this works. The players are acting very amateurish and it's not a good look - especially when results aren't there to support their claims

 

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

CSA needs the players more than they need the CSA.

The CSA withdrew from WCQ before, they could withdraw from whatever again. An opportunity to play in Copa America or 2026 WC is a "privilege not a right"

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Especially when the owners in this league are worth over a billion dollars. 

Easy to say when it's not your money at risk and you're not the one pumping more cash into a venture that won't get you a return for years or decades.

This is a very entitled way to look at things and if they choose to withdraw entirely, who's going to step in? The government? Bell and Rogers? The Saudis?

You're acting like David, Davies, Eustaquios grows on trees. Without a functional program and a pyramid, we'll go back to the dark ages in no time. You're kidding yourself if you think 3 MLS clubs can keep this going

[TOcanadafan]

5 hours ago, gator said:

That is exactly my feeling as well, Forge matches are so convenient and usually entertaining for me, it angers me when players, fans and some posters on here want to see that fail!

It’s not that people want the CPL to fail, it’s that they see how the pie has been divided, who’s brining in the revenue, and they feel it’s unfair.  How do we know the CPL will fail if the CSA got a larger slice of the revenues?  Let’s say the CMNT hadn’t had success the last window, and the additional revenue created entirely by the CNMT, (which was hardly maximized by the CSB) would the CPL have gone under?  No way the owners would’ve made that gamble.  I’m commenting here on the CMNT forum… I hope the CPL finds success too, but not at the expense of our National team.

[TOcanadafan]

15 minutes ago, Ansem said:

CSB gave around 42% of the sponsorship revenue to the CSA. Even if they gave 75% (which would have been a non starter) at around $6.1M - please tell me that you realized that this extra $2M doesn't address whatever issue the CSA has long term.

 

Where is this 42% number coming from?  How much sponsorship revenue is the CPL actually bringing in?  What was the increase as a direct result of the 2021-22 success of the CMNT? Have the figures been vetted by both sides? A lot of figures are being thrown around that don’t exist on paper… as the defense has always been from CSB that since they’re a private company, they don’t have to open their books.

 

19 minutes ago, Ansem said:

This all or nothing approach or we'll be "kicking and screaming" like the federal government was characterizing striking publics servants who were paid the less is just not how this works. The players are acting very amateurish and it's not a good look - especially when results aren't there to support their claims

 

It’s not an “all or nothing approach”.  Just as posters don’t “want the CPL to fail”.   Talking in these extremes is what’s fuelling a lot of the frustration from many of us who want to move forward.  It’s a usual tactic by the side who holds all the cards / power in place of actual meaningful negotiation as well as taking personal shots at the players (the ‘workers’) as you have done in this post. 

[Aird25]

14 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

6 hours ago, gator said:

 

It’s not that people want the CPL to fail, it’s that they see how the pie has been divided, who’s brining in the revenue, and they feel it’s unfair.

 Please direct me towards this information