The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

CSB not caring about bankrupting CSA seems like revolutionary news and I hope they have evidence to support the claim 

Yes, this is also a curious claim in the letter, to say the least. If they have evidence to support this claim, then fair enough, but otherwise it certainly suggests the lawyers they have hired don't often deal with defamation law cases as that statement shouldn't have made it through the first draft of the letter stage.

[Bigandy]

25 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think that part of the frustration for the players too is that the earnings are capped, because of the $3m deal with the CSB. In the past, it was likely easier for the players to understand their market value: it's whatever the CSA can earn. Now, that's not the case.

You're tying the players salary to sponsorship which is just one small part of our incoming revenues. Depending on which years you look at, our sponsorship revenue is 3-10% of total revenue-ish. For arguments sake, if the CSB gave us 100% of their revenue for free, we would see an increase, in the best year possible, of 3.5m. That 3.5mil is never going to the players. Its funding youth teams and paying for operational expenses.  

Edit: Having said the above, I think you are probably right that the players view it as you say and therefore are more frustrated.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Bigandy

[kacbru]

The entanglement of incompetence and greed on the part of CSA/players is all very tiresome.

Bigger picture, the problem is everyone is treating international football more and more like club football.  Best way to maximize earnings from international football?  Go play in Saudi, get expedited citizenship and file a one-time switch.  Those odds are higher than shaking pennies out of a dysfunctional CSA at the expense of youth teams, amateur soccer, domestic competitions, etc.

Raising registration fees? Try explaining that to someone struggling to get by and just want their kid to play soccer.  Sorry little Johnny, if you want to play this year, you need to cough up more so that professional players who already make 7 figures a year can get a bigger slice.

[grigorio]

22 minutes ago, kacbru said:

Raising registration fees? Try explaining that to someone struggling to get by and just want their kid to play soccer.  Sorry little Johnny, if you want to play this year, you need to cough up more so that professional players who already make 7 figures a year can get a bigger slice.

This would have been such a reasonable thing to have done but after the past year of this ugly public battle I wouldn’t blame parents for standing their ground. None of the parties are garnering heaps of sympathy. Give the CSA more money they’ll mismanage it or it’ll just go to rich owners of a men’s league. Give the players more money they’re already rich and should represent their country with pride and honour.  
 

The narrative basically kinda sucks all around for everyone in the public eye. 

[Ansem]

The men complaining about the WWC timing as a pressure tactic to get them to sign seems like evidence that the men and women aren't on the same page at all.

The women said they were about or close to signing the deal while the men came out with this and once again, using the CSB deal as a deflection tactics. 

If they would have said plainly that they want more than the women and feel they deserved a better deal than them (nope to equality)...my God this would NOT went over well

So keep hammering how CSB is bankrupting the CSA and that they should be the one paying the difference.

Honestly getting tired of this crap. After the Nations league performance and that game against Nigeria... (I'm frustrated I know) 

PLEASE, SOME GODDAMN HUMILITY

Edited July 25, 2023 by Ansem

[king1010]

The more this drags on and the more the players speak, the less sympathetic I am to their position. Not saying I’m on the side of the CSA, but they at least seem to be telling a consistent story and not putting out factually incorrect statements. 

[Ansem]

14 minutes ago, king1010 said:

The more this drags on and the more the players speak, the less sympathetic I am to their position. Not saying I’m on the side of the CSA, but they at least seem to be telling a consistent story and not putting out factually incorrect statements. 

Like you, the more this drags on the less I think they actually care about the rest of the program and throwing youth teams under the bus.

I'd like them to earn shit like winning trophies which also brings them prize money, not act entitled and not show up when it matters and still wanting near top nation compensation 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Ansem

[El Hombre]

This tweet (or is it "Xeet" now?) is an interesting interpretation of the men's press release.  Well done, CBC.  WIthout reading the article it sounds like everyone is getting along smashingly.

[Shway]

The women will crash out earlier than expected, and will blame that their focus was on ratifying this deal. 

It's just weird how deals are being worked on when they should be focused on playing...it's an easy justified cop out. 

[red card]

6 hours ago, VinceA said:

The longer the CSB and CSA drag this out the more it's gonna hurt them.

Sponsors won't sponsor if they literally can't do anything other than slap a CSA logo on some windows or use of photo of De Vos holding a Sandwich "Your Canada Soccer Board Member can't get enough of our Ham and Swiss!"

Only 4 or 25% of current Canada Soccer sponsors are actually using players. 2 with women players and 2 with men players. The rest haven't done soccer specific ads or use match clips. 

So, most sponsors are in it to be associated with Canada Soccer. It's more risky to be directly associated with players who are in and out of national teams with most gone after a cycle or before the sponsorship deal expires. There are also fan bases for the men who have little to no emotional connection for women players and vice et versa. 

It's actually the non Canada Soccer sponsors who use players more in their ads. For this WWC, BMO, Frito-Lays, Subway and Adidas are all featuring Canadian women national team players. 

In a podcast, Noonan mentioned he is well versed in NIL since he worked for Gatorade. He said the monies are pooled rather than paid to only the featured individual players. 

 

[gigi riva]

I am getting tired of this situation enough is enough pleaSe find a resolution

[SpursFlu]

I dont really follow the women's team like that but maybe the real grievance should be the player not at the World Cup because Christine Sinclair seems to get a free ride even though she was finished 4 years ago. I feel sorry for whichever player that is

Edited July 26, 2023 by SpursFlu

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

12 hours ago, kacbru said:

...Bigger picture, the problem is everyone is treating international football more and more like club football....

That's simply the reality of modern professional-level sport. Professional players are always looking to maximize their income because they have a short career.

People need to decide whether they want to prioritize having successful national team programs or view Victor Montagliani's agenda of providing CSB with the funds necessary to keep struggling CanPL clubs such as York United operating at a level revolving around regular air travel that would likely not otherwise be possible as their key priority. There are other lower-budget and more readily sustainable ways that a domestic pro league could have been configured.

Cheaping out on appearance money and doing things like providing only economy class tickets for trans-Atlantic trips could easily lead to a Tomasz Radzinski style reluctance to respond to international call-ups from several key players. The Gold Cup showed what happens when the CMNT has to rely on roster depth.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 hours ago, red card said:

Only 4 or 25% of current Canada Soccer sponsors are actually using players. 2 with women players and 2 with men players. The rest haven't done soccer specific ads or use match clips. 

So, most sponsors are in it to be associated with Canada Soccer...

It's actually the non Canada Soccer sponsors who use players more in their ads. For this WWC, BMO, Frito-Lays, Subway and Adidas are all featuring Canadian women national team players...

Paragraph two is a non-sequitur. It's quite possible that those sponsors did initially want to use images of the players but ultimately were wary of the legal implications of doing so because of the ongoing dispute between the national team rosters and CSA/CSB. The third paragraph highlights how not having the players on board with what's happening has likely had a major impact on how much money CSB can leach out of the deal that Victor Montagliani foolishly orchestrated.

[Aird25]

I’m pretty happy I get to watch pro soccer 10 minutes from home a couple times a month. I didn’t have that before CPL

[Bigandy]

11 hours ago, red card said:

Only 4 or 25% of current Canada Soccer sponsors are actually using players. 2 with women players and 2 with men players. The rest haven't done soccer specific ads or use match clips. 

So, most sponsors are in it to be associated with Canada Soccer. It's more risky to be directly associated with players who are in and out of national teams with most gone after a cycle or before the sponsorship deal expires. There are also fan bases for the men who have little to no emotional connection for women players and vice et versa. 

It's actually the non Canada Soccer sponsors who use players more in their ads. For this WWC, BMO, Frito-Lays, Subway and Adidas are all featuring Canadian women national team players. 

In a podcast, Noonan mentioned he is well versed in NIL since he worked for Gatorade. He said the monies are pooled rather than paid to only the featured individual players. 

 

Good info. 

So am I correct to assume the following:
1.  playing for a national team legally allows that national team to use player images. They then pool the money and disburse accordingly.  (or else how does every nation ever use player images?)

2. The CMNT is making an argument that because CSB is using their images and not CSA, that there is no pool of money being disbursed which therefore is illegal? (I guess I am struggling to see why its legal for other nations to use player images but the CMNT thinks its illegal for CSA/CSB). 

[red card]

17 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Good info. 

So am I correct to assume the following:
1.  playing for a national team legally allows that national team to use player images. They then pool the money and disburse accordingly.  (or else how does every nation ever use player images?)

2. The CMNT is making an argument that because CSB is using their images and not CSA, that there is no pool of money being disbursed which therefore is illegal? (I guess I am struggling to see why its legal for other nations to use player images but the CMNT thinks its illegal for CSA/CSB). 

Something is amiss. Based on Noonan's comments. the NIL monies are set in the sponsorship contracts. Without a CBA, it seems the players are saying they never signed off on it. Only Davies has explictly pulled out. But a number of players have obviously agreed to appear in the ads.

Noonan also said the pooled monies means even the players with no interest from sponsors get a share and spreads the committment time amongst the players. 

So, is the money not distributed yet? Split amongst the players and given the limited use of the players by the sponsors, it isn't a significant amount. Why the players mentioned it and largely focused on by the media seems more about picking on the low hanging fruit.

Much bigger monies are involved with split of the prize monies. Canada Soccer's apparent latest proposal of 30% share to the players is in line with many other federations. The US payout of 90% is an outlier but seems to have had an outsized influence in setting a benchmark for the Canadian men.

When FIFPro recommended to FIFA how much of the current WWC prize monies should go to the players, they said 30%. FIFA went with 50%. NBA, NFL & NHL also pay out around 50% of their revenues for player salaries. 

[Bigandy]

49 minutes ago, red card said:

Something is amiss. Based on Noonan's comments. the NIL monies are set in the sponsorship contracts. Without a CBA, it seems the players are saying they never signed off on it. Only Davies has explictly pulled out. But a number of players have obviously agreed to appear in the ads.

Noonan also said the pooled monies means even the players with no interest from sponsors get a share and spreads the committment time amongst the players. 

So, is the money not distributed yet? Split amongst the players and given the limited use of the players by the sponsors, it isn't a significant amount. Why the players mentioned it and largely focused on by the media seems more about picking on the low hanging fruit.

Much bigger monies are involved with split of the prize monies. Canada Soccer's apparent latest proposal of 30% share to the players is in line with many other federations. The US payout of 90% is an outlier but seems to have had an outsized influence in setting a benchmark for the Canadian men.

When FIFPro recommended to FIFA how much of the current WWC prize monies should go to the players, they said 30%. FIFA went with 50%. NBA, NFL & NHL also pay out around 50% of their revenues for player salaries. 

This makes sense. 

However, whats the legal ramifications of the low hanging fruit? If a CBA was signed, does this mean they have implied consent (or maybe even written consent) that their images can be used? 

Basically, what grounds do the players have for a cease and desist order? If the only grounds is that a CBA is not signed, then surely there is implied consent as they are playing without a CBA? 

 

[Ottawafan]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That's simply the reality of modern professional-level sport. Professional players are always looking to maximize their income because they have a short career.

People need to decide whether they want to prioritize having successful national team programs or view Victor Montagliani's agenda of providing CSB with the funds necessary to keep struggling CanPL clubs such as York United operating at a level revolving around regular air travel that would likely not otherwise be possible as their key priority. There are other lower-budget and more readily sustainable ways that a domestic pro league could have been configured.

Cheaping out on appearance money and doing things like providing only economy class tickets for trans-Atlantic trips could easily lead to a Tomasz Radzinski style reluctance to respond to international call-ups from several key players. The Gold Cup showed what happens when the CMNT has to rely on roster depth.

It is getting to the point the only way the NT players can make this right is by sitting out games, meaningful games.  The CSA continues to jerk the players around.  Let the CSA and its fan boys see what the true value of the players are to the program.

[king1010]

42 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

It is getting to the point the only way the NT players can make this right is by sitting out games, meaningful games.  The CSA continues to jerk the players around.  Let the CSA and its fan boys see what the true value of the players are to the program.

Then what happens when the players sit out and nothing changes from the CSA’s offer because there isn’t a magic pot of money? 
 

The players can make this right by understanding the wholistic situation(youth, womens programs, cpl, NTs other than the USA, other pro sports leagues where 50% rev share is norm) and negotiating towards a reasonable settlement (where they will have to make concessions). 

Edited July 26, 2023 by king1010

[grigorio]

3 minutes ago, king1010 said:

Then what happens when the players sit out and nothing changes from the CSA’s offer because there isn’t a magic pot of money? 

Which would also result in performance tanking and therefore potential revenue. 

[king1010]

1 minute ago, grigorio said:

Which would also result in performance tanking and therefore potential revenue. 

Are you talking about match fixing and betting on that? 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

13 minutes ago, king1010 said:

...a reasonable settlement (where they will have to make concessions). 

It's not just the players that think a reasonable settlement would need the CSB deal to first be torn up. Federal politicians appear to see it that way as well. The bad blood between the national team rosters and the CSA could easily drag on for another 14 years if the elephant in the room isn't acknowledged and dealt with.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bigandy]

 

51 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

It is getting to the point the only way the NT players can make this right is by sitting out games, meaningful games.  The CSA continues to jerk the players around.  Let the CSA and its fan boys see what the true value of the players are to the program.

What about the players jerking around every single fan, youth squad, and CSA affiliated players (mostly youth), who look up to these guys, are the main revenue drivers and the future of the squad. Is there not an ethical obligation on the players part to not abuse all these other stakeholders so that they can profit at the expense of everyone else? 

Of course they deserve to get paid a fair amount that is sustainable but the CSA is more than just the national team and for the players to hijack the federation so they get a bigger payday (that is partly covered because of other stakeholders) without any regard for any other stakeholders is not ethical in my opinion. 

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Good info. 

So am I correct to assume the following:
1.  playing for a national team legally allows that national team to use player images. They then pool the money and disburse accordingly.  (or else how does every nation ever use player images?)

2. The CMNT is making an argument that because CSB is using their images and not CSA, that there is no pool of money being disbursed which therefore is illegal? (I guess I am struggling to see why its legal for other nations to use player images but the CMNT thinks its illegal for CSA/CSB). 

Adding this to the convo