The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Gian-Luca]

Speaking of "creditors", it should probably be noted/remembered that that CSB actually pays the CSA, rather than the other way round. Wheeler (in the midst of taking a thinly-veiled swipe at Westhead) has tweeted that the CSA doesn't have any creditors as they don't owe anyone any money at the present time. In any case, I think its time (for me at least) to start focusing on the Gold Cup.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Gian-Luca

[Watchmen]

I'm just going to enjoy the next few years until it all implodes in 2027.

[TOcanadafan]

CSA / CSB practically wasted the corporate financial opportunities that Canada qualifying for 2022 gave them. You would have thought it would have been an easy sell to get on the bandwagon now, and work together to build momentum up to the biggest sporting event in the world in 4 years.  CSB probably sat on their asses, laughing at how they were getting extra revenue from the surprise qualification, while CSA is such a disaster and has little motivation to work with CSB to explore corporate sponsorships as they are capped.  I understand Rogers & Bell haven’t helped matters, but with with the right corporate partnerships, I’m sure there could be some overall sales pitch to get one of them on the bandwagon from the media side as well.  
And after very little gain from the 2022 success, they’ve  already wasted another year plunging themselves into the mess they find themselves in.  It’s so frustrating.  
 

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

CSA / CSB practically wasted the corporate financial opportunities that Canada qualifying for 2022 gave them. You would have thought it would have been an easy sell to get on the bandwagon now, and work together to build momentum up to the biggest sporting event in the world in 4 years.  CSB probably sat on their asses, laughing at how they were getting extra revenue from the surprise qualification, while CSA is such a disaster and has little motivation to work with CSB to explore corporate sponsorships as they are capped.  I understand Rogers & Bell haven’t helped matters, but with with the right corporate partnerships, I’m sure there could be some overall sales pitch to get one of them on the bandwagon from the media side as well.  
And after very little gain from the 2022 success, they’ve  already wasted another year plunging themselves into the mess they find themselves in.  It’s so frustrating.  
 

What do you mean wasted opportunities? I believe 2021 gave us the second highest revenue in our existence. 

CSB generated 8million in sponsorship in 2022 which is 8x higher than the average the CSA did prior to the CSB deal. I am not sure how 8x is "sitting on your ass laughing". Theres very few business that can generate 8x in just a few years. 

Why would the CSB sit on their asses and leave money on the table? They are still trying to confirm that the CPL is viable. Every additional dollar they can get is a step towards developing a sustainable league. 

This sort of take is such nonesense. It comes from the belief that all authority figures are corrupt, brilliant at screwing people over for their own financial gain but simultaneously completely unable to manage finances.  Your claims are unfounded and emotionally driven rather than using any financial data as a source. 

[king1010]

14 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

What do you mean wasted opportunities? I believe 2021 gave us the second highest revenue in our existence. 

CSB generated 8million in sponsorship in 2022 which is 8x higher than the average the CSA did prior to the CSB deal. I am not sure how 8x is "sitting on your ass laughing". Theres very few business that can generate 8x in just a few years. 

Why would the CSB sit on their asses and leave money on the table? They are still trying to confirm that the CPL is viable. Every additional dollar they can get is a step towards developing a sustainable league. 

This sort of take is such nonesense. It comes from the belief that all authority figures are corrupt, brilliant at screwing people over for their own financial gain but simultaneously completely unable to manage finances.  Your claims are unfounded and emotionally driven rather than using any financial data as a source. 

What source are you using for the $8M csb sponsorship revenue figure for 2022? I’ve only seen $2.8M. See below article. 
 

https://www.tsn.ca/csb-deal-funding-of-women-s-team-under-sharp-focus-as-canada-soccer-officials-testify-1.1934223?tsn-amp

 

Also what docs show the $1M CSA avg prior to the CSB deal? The PWC financial statements don’t provide that line level detail. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by king1010

[red card]

Best & final offer presented to men and women and awaiting their response.

"We have equalized the opportunity for them to be active in every window and to be able to give them the competition that they need, the training that they need to reach their highest level of performance and that the same environment across both programs."

 

[king1010]

Devos probably wanted to set the expectations with those interviews yesterday. Can’t blood a stone. 

[red card]

1 hour ago, king1010 said:

What source are you using for the $8M csb sponsorship revenue figure for 2022? I’ve only seen $2.8M. See below article. 
 

https://www.tsn.ca/csb-deal-funding-of-women-s-team-under-sharp-focus-as-canada-soccer-officials-testify-1.1934223?tsn-amp

 

Also what docs show the $1M CSA avg prior to the CSB deal? The PWC financial statements don’t provide that line level detail. 

That portion of Berube's talk was mistranslated. Nobody in the media noticed it. But Ansem who watched it en francais pointed it out earlier in this thread.

Les informations que nous avons obtenus, nous permets de croire qu'en 2022 CSB a obtenu pour environ $8.2M de commandite de toutes sortes

Re $1 million via IMG, 2002 annual report noted:

- IMG and other sponsor revenues of $1,140,000, of which $1,000,000 is
guaranteed. (12%)

Edited June 27, 2023 by red card

[Bigandy]

16 hours ago, king1010 said:

What source are you using for the $8M csb sponsorship revenue figure for 2022? I’ve only seen $2.8M. See below article. 
 

https://www.tsn.ca/csb-deal-funding-of-women-s-team-under-sharp-focus-as-canada-soccer-officials-testify-1.1934223?tsn-amp

 

Also what docs show the $1M CSA avg prior to the CSB deal? The PWC financial statements don’t provide that line level detail. 

Red card did an excellent job of explaining this below. 

However, even in your article, it states that canada generated 1.4million in sponsorship in 2018. Your own article answered your question. 

However, if you dont believe the translation error, and the CSB generated only 2.8 million in REVENUE, then the CSA made the best deal in history to be given 120% (or whatever the math is) of CSB revenues. and 0% costs.  

[MtlMario]

I do not know what's going on behind the scenes but this bankruptcy thing could just be a bargaining thing.

[Bigandy]

22 hours ago, king1010 said:

What source are you using for the $8M csb sponsorship revenue figure for 2022? I’ve only seen $2.8M. See below article. 
 

https://www.tsn.ca/csb-deal-funding-of-women-s-team-under-sharp-focus-as-canada-soccer-officials-testify-1.1934223?tsn-amp

 

Also what docs show the $1M CSA avg prior to the CSB deal? The PWC financial statements don’t provide that line level detail. 

Just curious what your thoughts on the CSB deal is now that we have the numbers. 

CSB REVENUE in WC year- 8.2
Pre CSB REVENUE for CSA - 1millish 
Post CSB PROFIT for CSA 3-4millish 

I think we all agree that the deal should be tweaked to account for performance related bonus's but as a whole, do you still think the CSB deal is the reason CSA is in a bad financial state and would you think the solution to the financial crisis is to void the deal?

[king1010]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Just curious what your thoughts on the CSB deal is now that we have the numbers. 

CSB REVENUE in WC year- 8.2
Pre CSB REVENUE for CSA - 1millish 
Post CSB PROFIT for CSA 3-4millish 

I think we all agree that the deal should be tweaked to account for performance related bonus's but as a whole, do you still think the CSB deal is the reason CSA is in a bad financial state and would you think the solution to the financial crisis is to void the deal?

I don’t think the CSB deal is the sole reason the CSA is in the position it is in. It plays a role though, and needs to be amended. 

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, king1010 said:

I don’t think the CSB deal is the sole reason the CSA is in the position it is in. It plays a role though, and needs to be amended. 

Ya I agree. It can for sure be amended but i think the situation is worse if the contract is voided. 

How much more (realistic) revenue per year should the agreement be amended too based on the numbers we spoke about in order for the CSB deal to be considered a good deal in your opinion? 

[king1010]

1 minute ago, Bigandy said:

Ya I agree. It can for sure be amended but i think the situation is worse if the contract is voided. 

How much more (realistic) revenue per year should the agreement be amended too based on the numbers we spoke about in order for the CSB deal to be considered a good deal in your opinion? 

It should be based on a percentage share of total revenue earned by csb with no cap.  Not sure what that amount is because CSB doesn't disclose the financials. 

[TOcanadafan]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:15 PM, Bigandy said:

What do you mean wasted opportunities? I believe 2021 gave us the second highest revenue in our existence. 

CSB generated 8million in sponsorship in 2022 which is 8x higher than the average the CSA did prior to the CSB deal. I am not sure how 8x is "sitting on your ass laughing". Theres very few business that can generate 8x in just a few years. 

Why would the CSB sit on their asses and leave money on the table? They are still trying to confirm that the CPL is viable. Every additional dollar they can get is a step towards developing a sustainable league. 

This sort of take is such nonesense. It comes from the belief that all authority figures are corrupt, brilliant at screwing people over for their own financial gain but simultaneously completely unable to manage finances.  Your claims are unfounded and emotionally driven rather than using any financial data as a source. 

How much more of the general public was paying attention to the CMNT when the tide towards qualification was building vs. Pre-CSB CMNT ranked in the 100’s?  You can’t compare this to a normal business.  One source says $2.8M the other $8.2M…so much is still cloaked in secrecy. There’s definitely a hint of corruption, but I’m mostly blaming ‘not performing to potential’ / incompetence.  Wasted opportunities for significant program growth that continues to stutter and even lose traction when we should be building towards 2026.  We can’t fund youth camps, or friendlies for both the men and women, and we’re hosting the damn World Cup in 3 years!  You’d think even the bank of FIFA might be able to help us out as they’ll be stuffing their pockets from the big party we’re hosting.

Edited June 28, 2023 by TOcanadafan

[Cheeta]

2 hours ago, king1010 said:

It should be based on a percentage share of total revenue earned by csb with no cap.  Not sure what that amount is because CSB doesn't disclose the financials. 

Would you?  More importantly should you?

I have a firm answer in my mind.

You put $3,000,000 a year on the table you demand, and get, that most basic bit of business necessity.  Non disclosure of specific financial terms.

Nothing we know about the CSB deal is innovative.  Capital B  "boring". 

[Bigandy]

16 hours ago, TOcanadafan said:

How much more of the general public was paying attention to the CMNT when the tide towards qualification was building vs. Pre-CSB CMNT ranked in the 100’s?  You can’t compare this to a normal business.  One source says $2.8M the other $8.2M…so much is still cloaked in secrecy. There’s definitely a hint of corruption, but I’m mostly blaming ‘not performing to potential’ / incompetence.  Wasted opportunities for significant program growth that continues to stutter and even lose traction when we should be building towards 2026.  We can’t fund youth camps, or friendlies for both the men and women, and we’re hosting the damn World Cup in 3 years!  You’d think even the bank of FIFA might be able to help us out as they’ll be stuffing their pockets from the big party we’re hosting.

This is a bit of a silly take. 

Pre CSB we were in the mid 50s ranking (2007, 2009). However, no one cared when we were ranked very high back then. No one cared when we went to the WC in 86 or won the Gold cup in 2000. So why is 2019-2023 not normal business? Whats different this time that has made the public care? Hmmmm maybe its our marketing and broadcasting that has improved so that canadians have access to CMNT for once..... The very thing that is being complained about is a large part as to why we are in a position to complain. 

Some other differences is we hired a coach who recruited high quality duals and united the program etc  I get that its not a singular reason for success. 

Your also incorrect to claim there is 2 sources.. There is only 1 source of CSB revenues. The heritage committee (unless you have a direct source elsewhere and not just poor reporting articles). There was a language translation error and not all reporters caught it so theres 2 numbers being reported. If you go to the source, you will have your singular answer of 8.2. 
 

 

17 hours ago, king1010 said:

It should be based on a percentage share of total revenue earned by csb with no cap.  Not sure what that amount is because CSB doesn't disclose the financials. 

So we negotiated a bad deal with CSB because we didnt look at their financials prior to signing a deal? However, prior to a deal, theres no financials. Seems like a catch 22. Does the percentage of revenue go up if they make more revenue and down when they make less revenue.... Seems like a percentage deal would account for the fluctuations in revenue and therefore we can say what a fair % is regardless of the actual amount of revenue. 

As for % of revenue  We know CSB is likely profiting somewhere in the 20-50% range. So a revenue %(not profit) has to obviously be way lower than profit or else CSB loses money and is not viable. so somewhere in the 10-40% range. Our current deal is about 40% of CSB revenues (In a world cup year) and likely around 50%-60% in non world cup years.
 

40% of revenue is insanely good! How much higher of a percentage of revenue does the CSA need to get in order to make this a good deal?

Lets look at a profit % as well. lets say that rent, advertising spend, salaries, broadcasting etc etc costs 1.5 million a year (this is an assumption but surely its not waaaay less than 1.5). 8.2-1.5 = 6.7million in profit before paying for the rights. 3.2/6.7 = 48%. We get almost 50% of profits IN A WORLD CUP YEAR. This means we probably get 60-75% of CSB profits in a non world cup year. 

50% of profits is also insanely good. How much higher of a percentage of profits does the CSA need in order to make this a good deal. 

Final thoughts.
1. The CSB is actually not terrible or the primary reason for CSA financial issues when you look at the numbers.
2. If you disagree then you either have financial data ive never seen or choose to ignore the finances because you want someone to blame or you dont trust the financial data. 
3. Not trusting the financial data we have is fine but then its strange to assume the deal is bad. If you dont trust the data then you should be neutral until theres data that persuades you one way or the other. 
4. I have yet to speak to an anti CSB person who actually provides numbers that would satisfy them and make the deal good. It's easy and lazy to say "everything is bad" but you develop empathy over the situation pretty quickly when you have to provide a resolution. Thats why I try and ask what would make the deal good in your opinion. 
5. We all know CSA has financial issues. Shouldnt our focus be on the areas that will significantly improve canada soccer. Voiding the CSB deal is an emotional choice that will hurt us on the field long term and arguably financially as well (both because CSA will likely generate less $ and there will be less access to soccer so popularity may fall without the CPL and broadcasting). Why dont we target bigger fish that will make meaningful improvements. 

I know im sort of beating a dead horse so Ill stop after this post for the sake of everyone else on the board. 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Bigandy

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Whats different this time that has made the public care? Hmmmm maybe its our marketing and broadcasting that has improved so that canadians have access to CMNT for once..... The very thing that is being complained about is a large part as to why we are in a position to complain. 

Hardly any of the public subscribe to OneSoccer.

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

Hardly any of the public subscribe to OneSoccer.

CSB is more than just one soccer. One soccer is just one of the ways to grow the game We have to look at socials reaches etc as well for a more comprehensive understanding of how CSB is impacting accessibility of CMNT.

However, this begs the question - If hardly any of the public subscribe to one soccer, why do some people think that the CSB is making insane amounts of revenue... If the public doesnt care much why would sponsor throw insane fairy tale figures at CSB. 
 

 

[narduch]

CSB and One Soccer are not the same company. 

Mediapro purchased the rights from CSB and  created One Soccer.

My own theory is that One Soccer is actually happy with their subscriber base that picked up thanks to the CanMNT. They are also happy with their Fubo deal.

Most of the people that complain about One Soccer are stupid and think TSN and Sportsnet are free

[Aird25]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

There was a language translation error and not all reporters caught it so theres 2 numbers being reported. If you go to the source, you will have your singular answer of 8.2

What exactly is this figure? Does it include the sponsorship and broadcast money that CPL and CSBs other properties brought in, or is that just the money CSB brought in from the national teams?

I don't want our national programs to be jeopardized by this deal, but I don't really believe that's the case. However, I know I'm biased as I regularly play in a CSB funded indoor training facility, attend professional games in my city that wouldn't exist without CSB, and recently went to the brand new CSB funded 5 aside pitch. I also happen to know that the owners of my team (CSB folks) are not coming anywhere near the green financially yet. When I read about CPL owners (CSB) getting rich off tax payer money and doing nothing for the sport in this country I just shake my head.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Aird25

[Aird25]

18 hours ago, king1010 said:

It should be based on a percentage share of total revenue earned by csb with no cap

I imagine it might be easier for CSA to operate with a guaranteed annual amount, instead of that amount being unknown and fluctuating.

Doesn't CSB generate revenue that is not associated with national teams? Should they be entitled to a share of that money. Also, seeing as a bunch of CSBs media and sponsorship deals have lumped national teams and CPL teams together, how do you determine what a fair split is. There are a lot more CPL games, and a lot more opportunities to advertise than there are for national teams that rarely play

[Bigandy]

23 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

What exactly is this figure? Does it include the sponsorship and add money that CPL and CSBs other properties brought in, or is that just the money CSB brought in from the national teams?

I don't want our national programs to be jeopardized by this deal, but I don't really believe that's the case. However, I know I'm biased as I regularly play in a CSB funded indoor training facility, attend professional games in my city that wouldn't exist without CSB, and recently went to the brand new CSB funded 5 aside pitch. I also happen to know that the owners of my team (CSB folks) are not coming anywhere near the green financially yet. When I read about CPL owners (CSB) getting rich off tax payer money and doing nothing for the sport in this country I just shake my head.

I believe it is the yearly revenue for CSB from marketing/sponsorship. This includes the sponsorships that package CPL and CMNT/CWNT deals. I do not believe it includes money brought in from CPL through other revenue streams (gate etc). 

Great points on all the other good things that the CSB are doing. I personally believe the CSB deal is slightly unfavourable given the unexpected increase in CMNT performance. However that slight amount of money is like 1-2 million maybe? I would 100% support the CSA spending 1-2 million a year to fund a domestic league, new training facilities, new pitches, free broadcasting, and increasing awareness, popularity of the sport. 

[king1010]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

I imagine it might be easier for CSA to operate with a guaranteed annual amount, instead of that amount being unknown and fluctuating.

Doesn't CSB generate revenue that is not associated with national teams? Should they be entitled to a share of that money. Also, seeing as a bunch of CSBs media and sponsorship deals have lumped national teams and CPL teams together, how do you determine what a fair split is. There are a lot more CPL games, and a lot more opportunities to advertise than there are for national teams that rarely play

minimum annual payment would help solve that. Yes, certain revenues the CSA has no part in should be carved out from the revenue share model. 

[Bigandy]

52 minutes ago, king1010 said:

minimum annual payment would help solve that. Yes, certain revenues the CSA has no part in should be carved out from the revenue share model. 

The CSB deal is a minimum annual payment.

Its near impossible to seperate a bundled CPL and CSA sponsorship deal. Is it 50/50? proportional to games played? Some other metric?