The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Ottawafan]

5 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Although the Birarda case is horrible, I cant help but feel like the goal post has been moved in order to gain public favour. 

Neither the men or women had any indication of fighting for change because of sexual abuse. It was all about financials, CSB etc. 

What happened in 2008 is horrible but it has been 15 years since then. Theres been significant turnover in the organization, the criminal system has dealt with it. Does anyone know what changes have occurred to improve since 2008, or conversely since 2019? The article only talks about how things were prior to 2019. Theres a good chance that nothings been done but it would be nice to see if there has been improvements. 

I just dont see the connection between birarda and the CSB deal or the CBA negotiations. It would be so much more productive to be specific on where and what needs to be fixed and what is going well instead of lumping in a horrible case to drive up emotions as if it is an indication of the CSB deal being bad. 

I think as more information becomes available and we see how much responsibility the powers that be had in ensuring the proper steps weren't followed, it takes on a greater importance.  Finances and bad deals ( while important ) should take a back seat to the human cost of the inadequate response from the CSA.

[Bigandy]

2 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I think as more information becomes available and we see how much responsibility the powers that be had in ensuring the proper steps weren't followed, it takes on a greater importance.  Finances and bad deals ( while important ) should take a back seat to the human cost of the inadequate response from the CSA.

100% that the human cost takes priority. It's just a bit odd that the focus of the audit is from 2017 onwards - so not during the birarda incident. So I am not sure why there is so much focus on this incident. Either it isnt the time or place to discuss the birarda case and you dont include that in the investigation, or it is the time and place and you do include it.... Now obviously doing an investigation from 15 years ago on a case that has already been settled criminally seems like a duplication of resources. 

I guess the audit could investigate how Canada has changed since the criminal charges that were placed in 2022 or even the whistle blowers program since 2019. Thats a really quick turn around for change at CSA considering everything else on their plate. Important change but I do see some logistical questions being asked.

[Ottawafan]

2 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

100% that the human cost takes priority. It's just a bit odd that the focus of the audit is from 2017 onwards - so not during the birarda incident. So I am not sure why there is so much focus on this incident. Either it isnt the time or place to discuss the birarda case and you dont include that in the investigation, or it is the time and place and you do include it.... Now obviously doing an investigation from 15 years ago on a case that has already been settled criminally seems like a duplication of resources. 

I guess the audit could investigate how Canada has changed since the criminal charges that were placed in 2022 or even the whistle blowers program since 2019. Thats a really quick turn around for change at CSA considering everything else on their plate. Important change but I do see some logistical questions being asked.

Maybe the deeper they go in the audit they expand the parameters of the investigation. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

18 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Maybe the deeper they go in the audit they expand the parameters of the investigation. 

Birarda was still coaching at a youth level national championship around 2017 and was only convicted in 2022, so bizarre that people are trying to pretend it isn't of recent relevance. Obvious that there are plenty of people who could not care less about his victims and just want it to be swept under the carpet and never mentioned again.

The Birarda cover up is symptomatic of the sort of rancid corporate culture that would think nothing of folding important CWNT related revenue streams into a deal with a men's pro league out to 2038 without securing a concrete commitment for the launch of a women's pro league.

That's why the federal government is linking future funding to genuine meaningful change in that governance culture being implemented based on the recommendations by independent investigators. Soccer bodies like the CSA, CONCACAF and FIFA definitely cannot be trusted to do it on their own.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bigandy]

 

55 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Birarda was still coaching at a youth level national championship around 2017 and was only convicted in 2022, so bizarre that people are trying to pretend it isn't of recent relevance. Obvious that there are plenty of people who could not care less about his victims and just want it to be swept under the carpet and never mentioned again.

The Birarda cover up is symptomatic of the sort of rancid corporate culture that would think nothing of folding important CWNT related revenue streams into a deal with a men's pro league out to 2038 without securing a concrete commitment for the launch of a women's pro league.

That's why the federal government is linking future funding to genuine meaningful change in that governance culture being implemented based on the recommendations by independent investigators. Soccer bodies like the CSA, CONCACAF and FIFA definitely cannot be trusted to do it on their own.

That is quite a leap to say that a cover up is causally connected to siphoning revenue streams. The Birarda cover up was a cover up in 2008. Yes he was coaching in 2017 but that was because of the cover up in 2008. The main guys who did the cover up are not part of CSA anymore. The CSB deal was in 2019? Vastly different timelines and likely different people and culture within CSA from 2008-2019 (maybe not better but i bet different). Using your logic, literally every single decision the CSA makes can be tainted with "rancid corporate culture". Example. The CSA has no problem siphoning off money from youth programs to pay womens players salaries for their club teams. We know this because of the rancid corporate culutre". 

This is my dilemma. Its poor reasoning to say that if something bad happened, then everything is bad. With this line of thinking, there does not need to be evidence of any further wrong doing, every single person who is part of the CSA - 15 years later - are lumped in with the bad people, every single decision by the CSA is evil. 

However, the general public would never do the opposite and say, " wow the CSA is willing to make our womens teams the 2nd highest paid team on the planet. That must be indicative of an improving and striving to be better work culture." 

Is the Birarda case horrible - absolutley and we need to make sure it doesnt happen again. 

Does the Birarda case provide any evidence or proof that the CSB deal is bad, unequal pay, or unequal treatment of the men and women sr. teams. - no there is no evidence through the Birarda case alone as they are unrelated issues. 

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

As stated before, two words: gender equity. That's what the federal politicians were primarily looking into where the CSA is concerned so how the Birarda coverup was handled definitely fell within their remit as did how the CSB deal was handled.

[Bigandy]

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

As stated before, two words: gender equity. That's what the federal politicians were primarily looking into where the CSA is concerned so how the Birarda coverup was handled definitely fell within their remit as did how the CSB deal was handled.

I dont understand how sexual abuse of a minor has anything to do with gender equity. Protecting our youth has absolutely zero to do with the sr. womens team making the same wage/travel accomodations etc as the sr. mens team.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Try reading Ciara McCormack's blog post about Birarda at the Whitecaps and national team program that ultimately helped lead to his prosecution. The issue that was being examined here in Ottawa by the federal politicians was about how the whole affair was subsequently handled by Canadian soccer's leadership and that definitely does make it a gender equity issue related to the women's national team programs.

https://ciaramccormack.com/2019/02/25/a-horrific-canadian-soccer-story-the-story-no-one-wants-to-listen-to-but-everyone-needs-to-hear/

Edited June 1, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Bigandy]

16 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Try reading Ciara McCormack's blog post about Birarda at the Whitecaps and national team program that ultimately helped lead to his prosecution. The issue that was being examined here in Ottawa by the federal politicians was about how the whole affair was subsequently handled by Canadian soccer's leadership and that definitely does make it a gender equity issue related to the women's national team programs.

https://ciaramccormack.com/2019/02/25/a-horrific-canadian-soccer-story-the-story-no-one-wants-to-listen-to-but-everyone-needs-to-hear/

I dont understand how any of this has to do with the proposed CBA being gender equitable. 

Telling me to read a blog post, as if I havnt read it already, and then cryptically saying that proves gender equity is the issue is not very helpful. Can you educate me on why a sexual predator incident in 2008 is directly related to the proposed CBA in 2023?  

What i derive from this is that the Birarda incident is about a sexual predator and the CSA did some despicable things. I dont see how equal pay is related.
 

[SF]

Below is the value statement taken from the CSA website.

The Guardian article, which includes a first hand account from a former CSA Director, suggests that these values have been comprehensively ignored. And ignored to the point where actual life changing harm has been brought to some of our players. The only thing worse than not having good values is saying that you do and being hypocritical.  

To me, this is a reflection of the biggest problem with the CSA. We can debate the CSB deal, we can debate funding levels of men vs. women, we can debate any number of things...but, the underlying problem is that the governance of the organization has lost of its sense of duty to its constituents.

I don't know how the CSA came to this place, but I don't think anything short of a full scale re-imagining of how the organization is led will get us to a better place.

Which is my way of saying that the governance piece of the coming audits are way more important than the financial elements.

 

We LEAD with unwavering INTEGRITY. HONESTY guides our actions. Our decisions are FAIR and ETHICAL. We thrive with EXCELLENCE. Our PASSION fuels our performance on and off the field of play. We are ACCOUNTABLE to our stakeholders. TRANSPARENCY directs our communication. We RESPECT and INCLUDE all.

[Ivan]

26 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I dont understand how any of this has to do with the proposed CBA being gender equitable. 

Telling me to read a blog post, as if I havnt read it already, and then cryptically saying that proves gender equity is the issue is not very helpful. Can you educate me on why a sexual predator incident in 2008 is directly related to the proposed CBA in 2023?  

What i derive from this is that the Birarda incident is about a sexual predator and the CSA did some despicable things. I dont see how equal pay is related.
 

It's called "having an agenda and sticking to it".  Stop wasting your time, although it took me a while.  

[Aird25]

Are these the people under question? 

https://www.canadasoccer.com/about-landing-page/board-of-directors/?cn-reloaded=1#berube

[The Ref]

Congratulations to Jason deVos on his appointment as Secretary of the CSA.  Jason is a man that knows the game.

 

[red card]

Athletic's Kloke with some tidbits from the players about the progress in CBA talks.

Kamal Miller has the best line: Our motto now is under-prepare, over-succeed

Johnston: The people that were in there before, I just think it was difficult to really tell what their true intentions were, who was listening, who was talking in their ear behind the scenes. And until you really clear that out, you’re never really going to get a straight answer.

And that’s what’s been really frustrating for us is that, as we continue to have this turnover, the answers keep changing and there’s still a lot of people (in Canada Soccer) who are the same. But we still have conversations and the answer keeps changing and you’re like, ‘OK, can you guys just be brutally honest with us? That’s all we want. We just want to know exactly what’s going on so that we can help you guys make a decision and we can come to an agreement that helps everyone.

I’ll be brutally honest with you. Not a ton has changed in terms of where we want to be. 

If you’re going to tell me that you don’t have money, alright, well, just show us. And Jason’s done a much better job at that in terms of showing us where our finances are at.

We’re not selfish or inhumane. We understand if you can’t make a deal based on certain parameters, there’s not a deal there to be made.

Wotherspoon: It’ll be good to meet new faces and get their insights and start working with them.

Hutchinson: Things are happening slowly. Step by step.

Herdman: He’s (de Vos) not trying to climb a ladder somewhere else and put his own interests before the country’s.

 

Kloke: De Vos is currently in Las Vegas and has been seen having conversations with players but has otherwise stayed out of the limelight. Not likely have an agreement before WWC. 

The next step will be more difficult but could signal legitimate change: convincing the players association to perhaps move off some of their financial demands now in the hopes of continually playing more games and growing their audience for long-term gains.

https://theathletic.com/4617054/2023/06/16/has-anything-changed-for-canada-soccer/

[red card]

Athletic also had a piece on what happens when you get called up for England. Here are things that would relate to the players dispute in Canada.

 

Every player eligible for England are made aware of the dates of the international games – via an email sent to clubs – so they know to keep them free and not book any holiday for those periods. This is in line with a FIFA regulation which requires players and clubs to be given 30 days’ notice before an international match.

Southgate prefers the call-up notice is done by the player's club manager. It makes it a celebration for the whole club, not just the player. 

They will be followed up with a formal text from England’s operations team, outlining travel dates and times. Communication generally comes via WhatsApp these days, where players are told what time they’ll be picked up, what executive car will be transporting them, what they need to bring with them (answer: not much) and when training sessions and team meetings will take place.

Players do theoretically get a match fee – but they all sign a waiver agreeing the money will go to charity, not to them.

Where they do profit is through sponsors. For a start, they will get a lot of gifts from England’s many commercial partners who currently include Nike, Barclays, Budweiser, Disney, Lucozade Sport, Marks & Spencer, Pokemon, Weetabix and Xbox. 

Sponsors will make use of the England players during a designated window of three to four hours a couple of days before a match, which could involve taking part in an advert or photoshoot. Everyone involved gets a percentage of a central pool of sponsorship income. Ben Foster said it might be 20% of the pool and player's share is pro-rata. He called it decent money (other reports have said it can be up £300k for those do the max work with sponsors).

Players can also earn money through appearances where they officially represent England, perhaps a community or media event.

https://theathletic.com/4563824/2023/06/16/what-happens-first-england-call-up/?source=ukdailyemail&campaign=711528

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

4 hours ago, red card said:

...Herdman: He’s (de Vos) not trying to climb a ladder somewhere else and put his own interests before the country’s...

Surprising to see John Herdman being that blunt about things given that's almost certainly aimed at Victor Montagliani and Nick Bontis and they are still part of the picture to a certain extent through their CONCACAF roles.

[Ottawafan]

Can only hope the new and promoted voices within the CSA will be able to steer the near future in a direction everyone can benefit from. Seems like the players ( and Herdman ) are not convinced yet. 
 

Still sad the players seemingly don’t have any real faith in the CSA. 

[Ottawafan]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Surprising to see John Herdman being that blunt about things given that's almost certainly aimed at Victor Montagliani and Nick Bontis and they are still part of the picture to a certain extent through their CONCACAF roles.

He’s in a comfortable position, a place where he can openly discuss the issues surrounding the CSA. Of course those names are still very much relevant within the CSA. 

[Stryker911]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Surprising to see John Herdman being that blunt about things given that's almost certainly aimed at Victor Montagliani and Nick Bontis and they are still part of the picture to a certain extent through their CONCACAF roles.

I know it's lame, bur I follow Bontis on Instagram. The only thing he posted on Thurday was a story of the stadium prior to the US/Mexico game. Nothin about Canada, even though he was literally in the building. Found it super distasteful, and he is clearly very grumpy about getting pushed out.

[king1010]

1 hour ago, Stryker911 said:

I know it's lame, bur I follow Bontis on Instagram. The only thing he posted on Thurday was a story of the stadium prior to the US/Mexico game. Nothin about Canada, even though he was literally in the building. Found it super distasteful, and he is clearly very grumpy about getting pushed out.

Im not sure it is professional for a concacaf exec to be posting favouritism to a specific country. 
 

EDIT. nvm I think you were saying just a general acknowledgement of the game 

Edited June 17, 2023 by king1010

[TOcanadafan]

“Nothing much has changed.”
We still don’t have a clear picture of the inner workings of the CSB group, their motives, and most importantly their plan with the CSA.

I’m also getting tired of the “there’s no money to be made” narrative.  It’s dumb, lazy, and a symptom of an ‘Ol Boys Club’ that seems content to keep power through stagnation and secrecy.

For starts, get together a proper promotions and business team with a vision and plan and let’s move forward.  

[Bison44]

Realistically, how many new people are in there in positions to do anything? The big names/top positions have gotten shit canned, and some people have got moved around, Crooks is only there short term and DeVos isnt exactly some fresh faced outsider brought in to fix things eh?  No one seems to want to get the players deal done and signed.  Whats the hold up there, who wants what, put your cards on the table and get something done.  Herdman takes shots at financial constraints on his squad but there doesnt seem to be a big picture plan for the best use of resources on hand (ie multiple programs at differing points of WC cycles and different needs not even mentioning youth programs).  Hopefully someone with business savy who is more amenable to the players gets in next spring and they have new ideas and strategies on how to knit the groups back together instead of us always tearing each other down and infighting endlessly.  

[Ottawafan]

51 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

“Nothing much has changed.”
We still don’t have a clear picture of the inner workings of the CSB group, their motives, and most importantly their plan with the CSA.

I’m also getting tired of the “there’s no money to be made” narrative.  It’s dumb, lazy, and a symptom of an ‘Ol Boys Club’ that seems content to keep power through stagnation and secrecy.

For starts, get together a proper promotions and business team with a vision and plan and let’s move forward.  

CSA has been a complete screw up in terms of the bigger picture for the game in Canada for as long as anyone can remember. The current state is directly connected to the people who were just running the program. We have to give those leading the direction currently the benefit of the doubt to enact change and work for what best for the entire game, not just for a few. The players still have doubt but let’s see what they can do first. 

[Ruud]

I trust De Vos 100%.  But it won’t be easy with so many competing interests and provincial interests which never align.  How to properly be accountable to all stakeholders is next to impossible.  In this phase of our development as a soccer country we have new money which everyone feels entitled to. 
 

[Watchmen]

3 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Realistically, how many new people are in there in positions to do anything? The big names/top positions have gotten shit canned, and some people have got moved around, Crooks is only there short term and DeVos isnt exactly some fresh faced outsider brought in to fix things eh?  

I know what you're saying, but reading the article I got the feeling there's more trust from the players with DeVos than with the previous regime.  They don't think anything gets done soon, but there's now actual constant discussion between the players and the CSA (Johnson mentions once a week) and that there's some (but not full) transparency on issues.