The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Ruud]

4 hours ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

An insightful and accurate post.  Well done Bigandy.  Let me add to your commentary:

1.  The MNT technically "boycotted" the Panama match with no notice (CSA reported that they learned of the boycott from the same tweet we all saw 45 minutes before kick off).  Un-effing-believable!  MNT technically did NOT strike as they were NOT registered as a players association as of yet. So, the MNT financially hurt (egregiously on purpose) the association (and by extension themselves) to the tune of about $3+ million in costs (lost revenues and operational costs) from that match alone.  And the soccer community gives them a pass?  No way!  In any other respected federation, the B team would have played the rest of the summer.  That money could have easily paid for the current negotiation gap and WNT's desire for a chef, etc.  Legally, the MNT could be sued for conspiracy, and would lose in court.  I'm in full agreement with Bigandy 100%.  The MNT were so naive!  Negotiating by themselves for after tax dollars in shady suitcases on the back of napkins. They had no concept of equal pay with the WNT, and probably still don't care today because this issue is only about greed!  The MNT and WNT alliance regarding joint negotiations is 100% fake!  So, is the MNT's apology to the fans who the players have no problem in shafting for their selfish greed, Herdman included.  By boycotting the Panama match with no notice, the MNT players wounded themselves, with the same magnitude as a CSB annual payment.  How ironic!

2.  The WNT had an equal pay offer from the start.  The detailed offer was made public a couple of months ago by the CSA and both WNT and MNT have had it since June 2022.  The offer is more than generous.  Every player (all 26 on MNT and all 26 on WNT) will earn $136,000 each in world cup prize money even if the WNT lays three goose eggs in Australia like the MNT did in Qatar.  $136,000 per player!  Makes both the WNT and MNT among highest paid in all of FIFA, which based on field performance we all know neither of them deserve. Once again, the CSA gave them transparency (what they've been asking for) and shared these numbers with the whole world and the players didn't like it.  That is the most hypocritical element to this whole thing and makes the players look so disingenuous.  I guess transparency only counts for some things and not others.

3.  The WNT originally had no problem with the June 2022 offer.  There is evidence in the media back in June that they were actually happy with the offer and were close to signing it.  So, what happened?  The MNT did not want the deal because they felt ripped off by unexpectedly being forced to share their "pot of gold of $10m from FIFA".  Again, selfish self-interest and greed.  The WNT only started getting upset with the deal when they saw how the MNT were treated in Qatar.  The WNT saw the high-end hotels, meals, flights, and services in Doha and got enraged.  Again, it's about greed.  Plus, this is a FIFA issue not a CSA issue.  FIFA determines the service levels at their events and whether the WNT like it or not, the men's World Cup is still the king of all sporting events.

4.  It's an absolute slap in the face that the WNT and MNT care about youth soccer.  They do NOT.  If they did, they would have left some prize money for the CSA to use to fund their other initiatives (U20, U17, U15, para, beach, coaching, referee, grassroots, etc.).   As is stands, the June 2022 offer leaves less than 20% of the Qatar prize money for CSA operations.  The CSB annual payment of $3m to the CSA is a "useless leg to stand on" for the players.  It represents about 10% of CSA's annual revenues which is nothing. Even if it were doubled to $6m per year (which CSB will never agree to) that still won't put a dent on the woeful resources the youth teams will receive.  Plus, the senior players would still be greedy enough to take that extra money for themselves.  The CSA saw an opportunity to solidify their cash flows back in 2018 when they were only getting just over a million a year from sponsorship in the year before, and paying a million a year to TSN and SportsNet to get games on TV for over a decade.  Anyone with half a brain would have agreed to the CSB offer.  The fact that the CSB deal gets conflated with the collective bargaining agreement is an absolutely "deflection tactic" by the MNT and WNT's lawyers, the biased media, and self-serving MPs.  Nothing more and nothing less.  Even the Birarda issue has become a deflection strategy.  Just five days ago it was confirmed that Birarda does NOT have to register with the sex offenders database when he gets out of jail.  This is in 2023!  Birarda could move next door to your house, and you would never know.  Even though he was criminally convicted and is in jail for his crimes that have nothing to do with the CSA!   YET, the heritage committee believes that the CSA should have had Birarda flagged in a database back in 2008 (when the coaches database never existed). But today in 2023, Birarda still doesn't have to be in a sex offenders database.  Holy cow!

5.  CSB deal did not include women's pro soccer because the CSA was already paying about a million a year to the NWSL in salaries for the WNT players for a decade.  Why does everyone forget that?  The CSA was directly funding the WNT players salaries and supporting bids to host the women's world cup in Canada way before the CPL kicked a ball.  Sinclair's salary was paid for by the CSA (not Portland) yet she argues they were treated unfairly.  Osorio's TFC salary was never paid for by the CSA.  Again, 100% disingenuous.

In summary, Canada Soccer has had three strategic plans in the last decade.  All three are very clear with their objectives and goals.  And yes, the WNT were supported way more than the MNT in the first two iterations.  Then the focus switched to the MNT in the latter years as we garnered success and leveraged a better player pool.  It's like having two siblings and the daughter complains when the son gets a better gift for Christmas.  Problem is, the son never complained once when the daughter was getting paid her salary in the NWSL and hosted two world cups for them.  Now the tables have turned and the son gets some much needed attention, his own league and his own world cup, and the daughter is losing her mind.  Media pundits have no clue, former players are biased, and sponsors are running for the hills again after a World Cup year. Again, 100% disingenuous.

Players must perform on the field, not behind a desk.  Executives allocate scarce resources the best way they can.  The problem now is will the WNT ever perform again like they have over the last decade?  I'm nervous for them in Australia.  Of course, I want them to win it all, we all do, but I'm not sure they will even get past the group stage or the first knockout stage.  And as for the MNT, they've done nothing yet compared to the WNT.  If they lay an egg at Nations League in Las Vegas and another one in Gold Cup later this summer, neither the WNT nor the MNT will have any leverage for negotiation whatsoever by late summer.  In the meantime, the association has already been blown up, barely anyone is left, many executives have left, volunteers have been shamed as scapegoats, and our country will be forever remembered for having two teams: an Olympic gold medalist, and top of table in Concacaf soon after burn the house down.  This is all on the players.  Sad but true.  I leave you with two words again: disingenuous greed.

P.S.  One last important note regarding how we move forward.  There is no way that a new general secretary who is the CEO of Canada Soccer and responsible for assessing and firing the MNT and WNT coaches can do that properly and independently when he was a prior assistant coach to both of them.  More lunacy!  And it's only begun.

This is gold.  You should be called to testify on the basis of this post.  

[Copes]

I've been following all of this and largely staying out of it. But I'm really happy to reach Bigandy and ScooterLawrence's post. My sentiment exactly. I love soccer in Canada but I have no love for the Player's position in all of this. 

[Colonel Green]

3 hours ago, Bison44 said:

See it cant be both ways.  Detractors fault CSA for making a bad CSB deal that locks us in for min 10 years and they should have known we were going to qualify for Qatar.  But at the same time CSA shouldnt have counted on any FIFA qualification money.  

I think eventually they must have figured we were going to qualify (fall 2021?) and prob had some of that money (10mil) ear marked (and then overspent on the remainder of mens WCQ) for post WC operations.  And when the they ran into the men playing hardball and the women wanting the same %, they got caught with their pants down all the while getting it in ass from the press.  Then cuts for the women, more ass F#cking from press, then ass f#cking from gov inquiries, everyone resigns and no one seems to remember we have youth programs. Whew, so now the same people can rip the next dummies that agree to take a volunteer job to help soccer.  

I never once faulted the CSA for not knowing we would qualify for Qatar. In fact, I have noted the opposite in the past.

Banking on getting the FIFA money before they had a deal with the players about how the money was going to be allocated is just them being (hypothetically) incompetent.

[Colonel Green]

EDIT: Double-post, stupid computer.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Colonel Green

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

If pro clubs and leagues have 21 votes collectively, why is there no equitable representation for the relevant players unions who represent the people who actually play the game?

Edited May 4, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

...There are 85 votes up for grabs in Saturday’s election. Depending on whether a new women’s domestic professional league, known for now as Project 8, is sanctioned and how many votes it is awarded for the election, the race is expected to be close. The women’s league is being organized by Diana Matheson, a former women’s national team player...

Edited May 5, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

 

[Gian-Luca]

Neil Davidson's report on Charmaine Crooks appearance - yet again it doesn't sound like there was much point to it or anything has been accomplished (other than perhaps to waste more taxpayer money):

https://www.timescolonist.com/national-sports/parliamentary-hearing-on-canada-soccer-turns-testy-with-crooks-veracity-questioned-6989430

Since there is apparently no end in sight to this, one wonders when the committee will eventually get to the men's team and ask them which ones are opposed to pay equity - on the other hand, that might actually be useful information that people will want to know the answer to, so its unlikely that they will ask that. Much better to ask about the CSB deal for the 47,429th time.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Gian-Luca

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

... “I think our objective as a committee is to get answers on behalf of the athletes. We heard from the four senior players and what we heard from them is they are severely disappointed with Canada Soccer in regards to equal pay and it is not in place,” said Thomas.

“In addition to that, you have the Canada Soccer Business deal that was signed with Canada Soccer and that didn’t give the women a fair shake either, and Mrs. Crooks has been there the entire time.”

“She has been there since 2013, so why didn’t she speak up and use her voice on behalf of the women’s team? She didn’t, and she failed to do that. Then she came to committee and skirted our questions and made herself look like she is invested in real change.”

“If she was serious about it, that change should have started in 2013 – and that was the time to use her voice.” ...

She was voted in by the stakeholders that have been broadly pro-CSB deal all along so I doubt anything substantial is going to happen over the next year and any of the issues are going to be resolved in an "and they all lived happily ever after" sort of way.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[red card]

Noonan was on Footy Prime starting around the 37th minute.

He said a number of times that it's time to stop painting CSB as the bad guys. Dumbfounded players who are getting money put into their pockets by the CSB are bashing CSB at committee hearings. Though, he understands CSB is being used as a pawn in a labour dispute. 

CSA has to decide how to split the pie. If most of it is given to the players, then you can't expect other areas of CSA's purview to be funded properly. No extra pot of money is out there today to fund everything people want for Canadian soccer (agreed upon by Forrest & Brennan).

It can't be soccer vs soccer. It needs to be soccer vs everything else.

CSB sent letter to the CSA on March 7th on new proposals for the agreement but haven't received any communication yet. Current deal has bonuses built in along with incremental increases. 

Repeated $100 million put in with nothing taken out by the owners. 500 full time jobs created. York taken over to cut out the third party in negoitations. 

10% of League 1 players have turned pro. Looking for ways to move away from non-profit model for League 1 clubs. Brennan said he has ideas.

 

 

[Ansem]

47 minutes ago, red card said:

Dumbfounded players who are getting money put into their pockets by the CSB are bashing CSB at committee hearings. Though, he understands CSB is being used as a pawn in a labour dispute. 

Even less impress with some of those players now. Truly appalling

Amy is so stubborn and Jimmy let it slip that Project 8 is actually struggling to get the dollars! This is Canada and she still can't understand that we aren't the US. Trapped in her feelings 🤪

Edited May 19, 2023 by Ansem

[SpursFlu]

No disrespect to the level of women's soccer player in Canada but after you get past mega clubs in Europe, NWSL and what they pay players. The level of play in a women's league in Canada without dramatically overpaying and losing money, would probably be terrible. Why not work thru the League 1 system and build that up. Oh right, it's actually all about tearing things down and creating a retirement plan for a select few

[scooterlawrence5]

Footy Prime would be wise to do two things in a fuure podcast that require journalistic integrity, research and insight ... and frankly not a single media outlet in Canada has any of these when it comes to futbol coverage.  Two simple questions that would address everyone's frustration:

1.  Ask a player rep from the MNT and a player rep from the WNT, why have you not acknowledged, counter-offered, or even signed the deal that was presented to you in June 2022 making both teams among the best paid in their peer group world-wide?

2.  How many of the three announced clubs that have signed-on for Project 8 have already paid the $1 million league fee that was required?

No one wants to know the answer to both questions.  That's because the answer to both questions is really ugly.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

How would you be in a position to know the answer to the second question?

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

9 hours ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Footy Prime would be wise to do two things in a fuure podcast that require journalistic integrity, research and insight .

I like footy prime but they really shouldn’t be giving strong opinions on these as they admit they haven’t done any research and don’t exactly know what they are talking about. The problem is that people listen and take some of the poorly informed opinions as fact.  

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Greatest Cockney Rip Off said:

I like footy prime but they really shouldn’t be giving strong opinions on these as they admit they haven’t done any research and don’t exactly know what they are talking about. The problem is that people listen and take some of the poorly informed opinions as fact.  

I find it fine, since in sports media there is something for everyone. We are finally getting to the point in the Canadian soccer landscape where we have a truly pluralistic scene, with muckraking journalists, toxicity, serious programs with the proverbially dumb pundit everyone loves, the entertainment-focused content, pure speculation, and so on. Then the odd sprinkly of rigour and analysis, often mixed in with the rest. I have given up expecting sports journalism in general to be anywhere near reliable, but since I am a fanatic I just take it all in, and filter and collate for myself. 

I even think the tendency on twitter of massive agreement with the most wayward line of conspiratorial social justice warrior thinking--our women's national team members are THE real victims-- is "good" for the game.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

How would you be in a position to know the answer to the second question?

How would you be in a position to know what he means by "ugly"?

 

Always the king of irrational thinking and tendentious arguments on the board.

[Ivan]

15 hours ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Footy Prime would be wise to do two things in a fuure podcast that require journalistic integrity, research and insight ... and frankly not a single media outlet in Canada has any of these when it comes to futbol coverage.  Two simple questions that would address everyone's frustration:

1.  Ask a player rep from the MNT and a player rep from the WNT, why have you not acknowledged, counter-offered, or even signed the deal that was presented to you in June 2022 making both teams among the best paid in their peer group world-wide?

2.  How many of the three announced clubs that have signed-on for Project 8 have already paid the $1 million league fee that was required?

No one wants to know the answer to both questions.  That's because the answer to both questions is really ugly.

We all know the answer to question 1.  And yes it is ugly, and why the players haven't answered it yet.  As others have said, no idea about question 2.

[Ivan]

17 hours ago, red card said:

. Though, he understands CSB is being used as a pawn in a labour dispute. 

 

 

 

Anyone being honest with themselves knows this to be the case.  I actually blame Bontis for this as he used the CSB deal as a negotiating tactic against the players over the bonus money payouts.

[VinceA]

Hopefully of this remains off FIFA's radar otherwise we can get fucked over by their no interference rule.

[SF]

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/canada-soccer-faces-independent-audit-into-finances-new-funding-conditions-1.1967073

It will be important to know the terms/scope of the audit and governance review, but this could be a first and good step toward restoring trust between the CSA and its constituents. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Goes deeper than funding if this snippet is to be believed:

...The organization must also undergo governance review and accept advice from an external advisory group in order to continue receiving federal funding...

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

[Ottawafan]

10 hours ago, VinceA said:

Hopefully of this remains off FIFA's radar otherwise we can get fucked over by their no interference rule.

This isn’t interference to install a bunch of yes men in the FA. It’s oversight to ensure government dollars are spent properly.