The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, Ottawafan said:

Never used the term controversial, so I can't speak to that.  Players distrust the CSA and as we learn more about those in power and making the decisions, it becomes apparent why the players on both NT keep speaking about their lack of faith.  We need to get the CSA and the mens/womens teams all pulling in the same direction, to be on the same page.

I used the term controversial for simplicity as I assume your post only included controversial decisions and not minute day to day decisions such as what coffee to order for the office etc. You can change that wording to "any and all decisions". 

The players distrust the CSA but that doesnt mean they are knowledgeable or correct. As we learn more about the CSB deal, I trust the players judgement less and less. 

Here are a couple obvious mistakes the players have made. 
1. Men went on strike and negotiated without having legal counsel. This is so niave.
2. Women went on strike - Illegally. Thats horrible planning and business sense. 
3. The women were talking about equal pay and transparency. They then get really upset when the CSA for releasing the proposed bargaining agreement. The timing was dubious but why does timing matter if the CSA does exactly what you ask for. The answer is that the proposed agreement had information that discredited the womens claims. Horrible business sense to go into the heritage meetings under the guise of unequal pay when they clearly had an equal pay deal. (we can debate equal treatment)
4. The demands for the prize money. Demanding basically all the money from the WC but simultaneously thinking there should be more money for operations. This shows a real lack of understanding.
5. Claims that the CSB deal funnels money from the womens youth teams and operating costs into a private company. This is 100% false. The CSA made under 1million in sponsorship prior to the CSB deal. The CSB deal gives 4million to CSA. Theres now 3million plus for CSA operations. (We can debate if we are leaving food on the table by only getting 4 million, but theres no money being taken away from operations). 

Basically the players have wants but don't demonstrate any knowledge of costs, realistic budgeting or understanding of how the CSB deal works. 

If we want the CSA and both teams to go in the same direction, then there needs to be give and take on both sides. To say that as we learn more, we find out the CSA is awful, is just incorrect. What new information is there that the CSA is that horrible. The BB case is horrible but thats not current information. Other than that, the CSA has lots of learning to do but its not as shocking as the players are making it seem. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I used the term controversial for simplicity as I assume your post only included controversial decisions and not minute day to day decisions such as what coffee to order for the office etc. You can change that wording to "any and all decisions". 

The players distrust the CSA but that doesnt mean they are knowledgeable or correct. As we learn more about the CSB deal, I trust the players judgement less and less. 

Here are a couple obvious mistakes the players have made. 
1. Men went on strike and negotiated without having legal counsel. This is so niave.
2. Women went on strike - Illegally. Thats horrible planning and business sense. 
3. The women were talking about equal pay and transparency. They then get really upset when the CSA for releasing the proposed bargaining agreement. The timing was dubious but why does timing matter if the CSA does exactly what you ask for. The answer is that the proposed agreement had information that discredited the womens claims. Horrible business sense to go into the heritage meetings under the guise of unequal pay when they clearly had an equal pay deal. (we can debate equal treatment)
4. The demands for the prize money. Demanding basically all the money from the WC but simultaneously thinking there should be more money for operations. This shows a real lack of understanding.
5. Claims that the CSB deal funnels money from the womens youth teams and operating costs into a private company. This is 100% false. The CSA made under 1million in sponsorship prior to the CSB deal. The CSB deal gives 4million to CSA. Theres now 3million plus for CSA operations. (We can debate if we are leaving food on the table by only getting 4 million, but theres no money being taken away from operations). 

Basically the players have wants but don't demonstrate any knowledge of costs, realistic budgeting or understanding of how the CSB deal works. 

If we want the CSA and both teams to go in the same direction, then there needs to be give and take on both sides. To say that as we learn more, we find out the CSA is awful, is just incorrect. What new information is there that the CSA is that horrible. The BB case is horrible but thats not current information. Other than that, the CSA has lots of learning to do but its not as shocking as the players are making it seem. 

All correct, and you in fact understated things:

1)the strike was not only wildcat, it disrespected tens of thousands of paying fans who ended up out of pocket for travel, meals, even hotels. It meant a massive revenue loss for the CSA, enough to have covered the pay gap in most of their demands. They still have not even thought they owe the fans an apology for their irresponsibility (Herdman included).

3)claims for equal pay ignored basic facts: by making the World Cup, the men raised the potential payout for men and women massively. And the only way to make the World Cup was to spend to get there, because the qualifying campaign was 20 games, the travel was brutal, and there were major revenue losses incurred by not being able to play at home, either not at all or not at full capacity. 

The women seem to prefer full equity in spending and nothing in my pocket, to spending to ensure I get something maybe less than fully equitable, but equivalent to a full year's salary or more in many cases (upward of 150k it seems).

5)While arguing about where money is going, and claiming a lack of transparency, the women were totally untransparent, to the point of being deceitful, about many of them receiving salary from the CSA paid to them through their private US clubs in a private US league. 

7)Which you did not include: CPL players are also players, L1 women players are also players. Both the NT men on their part and the WNT women on theirs directly disrespect both bodies of fellow Canadian players, ignoring they are, in both cases, the highest full league levels of mens and women's soccer in the country. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

All correct, and you in fact understated things:

1)the strike was not only wildcat, it disrespected tens of thousands of paying fans who ended up out of pocket for travel, meals, even hotels. It meant a massive revenue loss for the CSA, enough to have covered the pay gap in most of their demands. They still have not even thought they owe the fans an apology for their irresponsibility (Herdman included).

3)claims for equal pay ignored basic facts: by making the World Cup, the men raised the potential payout for men and women massively. And the only way to make the World Cup was to spend to get their, because the qualifying campaign was 20 games, the travel was brutal, and there were major revenue losses incurred by not being able to play at home, either at all or at full capacity. 

5)While arguing about where money is going, and claiming a lack of transparency, the women were totally untransparent, to the point of being deceitful, about many of them receiving salary from the CSA paid to them through their private US clubs in a private US league. 

The women seem to prefer equity or equality for extremely low quantities each to spending hard to enable far higher payouts.

7)Which you did not include: CPL players are also players, L1 women players are also players. Both the NT men on their part and the WNT women on theirs directly disrespect both bodies of fellow Canadian players, ignoring they are, in both cases, the highest levels of mens and women's soccer in the country. 

Well said. As a fan its so offensive that the players are willing to screw the fans over financially so they make more money (#1), and then are deceitful to sway public opinion in #5. Good point for #7.

So why exactly do some people think that the CSA is so evil.....? Some people will always hate and crucify those in power and support the "working man" (which in this case is players making millions of dollars a year)

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Well said. As a fan its so offensive that the players are willing to screw the fans over financially so they make more money (#1), and then are deceitful to sway public opinion in #5. Good point for #7.

So why exactly do some people think that the CSA is so evil.....? Some people will always hate and crucify those in power and support the "working man" (which in this case is players making millions of dollars a year)

I came onto this board over 20 years ranting and raging over the CSA. I was irate and stayed that way, mostly, for a decade and a half. Most of my ire was driven by frustration over chronic  failure. The last 5 I've softened, because some things were happening. 

I think the CSA is amazingly incompetent, so much so that they are not even able to hire reliable paid professionals to improve the organisation. I mean, okay to admit we on the board can't do it, but not to be able to hire to compensate that?

It's just that if I was ranting because there were no results, it is illogical to think when the results finally came the CSA deserved no credit. There is no evidence to suggest that the women getting gold in Tokyo or the men getting to the WC were accomplishments against, in the face of or despite the CSA. I am not saying it does not happen, dysfunctional clubs with idiot presidents win trophies, it happens. Far more relegate, underachieve, leave debts, even end up destroying historical insitututions who disappear entirely.

So instead of trying to argue there is this exceptional group of men and women who defied and snubbed the CSA to be able to achieve their success, maybe the CSA deserves some credit. 

If you have ever supported a club that has won something, a trophy, you will probably have forgiven all the bs along the way, you will not have sit there sour during a victory parade because the board of the club is "incompetent".

Edited May 3, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Bison44]

So McCormack is saying that Crooks is the corrupt status quo?  

[gator]

14 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I came onto this board over 20 years ranting and raging over the CSA. I was irate and stayed that way, mostly, for a decade and a half. Most of my ire was driven by frustration over chronic  failure. The last 5 I've softened, because some things were happening. 

 

I was also pissed with many things the CSA did and still have lots of concern, my first CMNT at our National Soccer Stadium was the "Sack the CSA" t shirt promotion organized by none other than Dino Rossi who will be attempting to become a CSA board member this weekend! I still have the t shirt and wish him luck, things do evolve in organizations, now if we have a Soca band at BMO to make T&T and their fans feel more at home at the GC match in June I will say nothing has changed!

[gator]

3 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So McCormack is saying that Crooks is the corrupt status quo?  

The corruption tag has been thrown around by many, at what point does it become slanderous if it is just opinion and not fact?

[Bison44]

They also throw around "financial irregularities" a lot.  Did I miss something there??  Or is that code for not enough money for whatever you want to do??  

[Ivan]

37 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

So McCormack is saying that Crooks is the corrupt status quo?  

Correct.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Never used the term controversial, so I can't speak to that.  Players distrust the CSA and as we learn more about those in power and making the decisions, it becomes apparent why the players on both NT keep speaking about their lack of faith...

...but a few uberfans on here know better and think it's all a witch hunt.

... In a letter to presidents of the provincial federations, the players say soccer in Canada is at "an inflection point, and we are deeply concerned about the ability of Canada Soccer’s leadership to guide the organization into the future."

"For far too long, we have been engaging with leadership that has not been prepared to make the changes that are needed, for the benefit of the current and future players and staff and the future of soccer in Canada," the players say in the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Canadian Press. "We have grown increasingly concerned that the Canada Soccer decision-makers have not acted in the best interests of the sport of soccer in Canada." ...

[Ottawafan]

28 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...but a few uberfans on here know better and think it's all a witch hunt.

... In a letter to presidents of the provincial federations, the players say soccer in Canada is at "an inflection point, and we are deeply concerned about the ability of Canada Soccer’s leadership to guide the organization into the future."

"For far too long, we have been engaging with leadership that has not been prepared to make the changes that are needed, for the benefit of the current and future players and staff and the future of soccer in Canada," the players say in the letter, a copy of which was obtained by The Canadian Press. "We have grown increasingly concerned that the Canada Soccer decision-makers have not acted in the best interests of the sport of soccer in Canada." ...

Which doesn't surprise me in the end.

The players who are part of the CSA and tied to their decisions and feel the impact are somehow wrong and misconstruing the actions of the CSA.  Luckily a few internet detectives have put a few tweets together and declared the players in the wrong.   

[Bison44]

So Newman is the guy to bring about change??  Mr I was in CSA for 10 years during the darkest times (abuse scandal and poor on field results).  Seems like the players want change but not the change that was brought in 5-6 years ago.  The CSB deal was a big change and it has helped both programs get to new heights, an increase of steady income even during lean years.  It helped get us the WC and CPL (also Onesoccer)...which are in turn helping flesh out our L1Canada (proper coast to coast D-3 base of the pyramid) that creates even more chances for our young players. To paint this as some evil plot to screw the national teams just seems bizzare.  Canadian soccer is in a much better place than it was 6-7 years ago.  

 I dont know who is the person to guide the CSA through these growing pains, not much to choose from.  If we are going to be a true soccer nation, they need to be a lot better.   The whole bunch hasnt grown in competency and quality like the players have.  The 2 top national teams want more (and are getting more) and it seems like the youth programs are still getting the squeeze and if you are on the players side you should be plenty worried about that.  No youth program and duals will run away from us like we have the plague.  

[Aird25]

Deleted

Edited May 3, 2023 by Aird25

[Bigandy]

44 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Which doesn't surprise me in the end.

The players who are part of the CSA and tied to their decisions and feel the impact are somehow wrong and misconstruing the actions of the CSA.  Luckily a few internet detectives have put a few tweets together and declared the players in the wrong.   

Its interesting that you say the interenet detectives are wrong and you have posted a quote from Amy Walsh as justification. Amy Walsh clearly struggles with her financial understanding - both understanding the CSB deal and operational costs of CSA. 

Have you listened to Amy Walsh and craig forest discuss the finances of CSA? Amy basically said that regardless of operational costs, both teams should always get the same amount of money. Thats the quickest way to underfund or overfund a team and essentially waste money or sewer our teams. 

I can't help but feel like you're directing your internet detectives comment towards me. I would love to hear why you think the CSA is in the wrong. Can you give reasons with evidence as opposed to " the players dont trust CSA". 

This isnt about being a detective and picking a side. It's about looking at the numbers factually. Do you not think the mens program were in the wrong to strike costing CSA 3 million, prestige and insulting thousands of fans who each likely lost hundreds of dollars.  

[Ottawafan]

30 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Its interesting that you say the interenet detectives are wrong and you have posted a quote from Amy Walsh as justification. Amy Walsh clearly struggles with her financial understanding - both understanding the CSB deal and operational costs of CSA. 

Have you listened to Amy Walsh and craig forest discuss the finances of CSA? Amy basically said that regardless of operational costs, both teams should always get the same amount of money. Thats the quickest way to underfund or overfund a team and essentially waste money or sewer our teams. 

I can't help but feel like you're directing your internet detectives comment towards me. I would love to hear why you think the CSA is in the wrong. Can you give reasons with evidence as opposed to " the players dont trust CSA". 

This isnt about being a detective and picking a side. It's about looking at the numbers factually. Do you not think the mens program were in the wrong to strike costing CSA 3 million, prestige and insulting thousands of fans who each likely lost hundreds of dollars.  

I didn't post a quote from Amy Walsh.

You would have to speak to the players as to why they feel they don't trust the CSA.  Having had dealings ( minimal ) with different soccer associations, I believe them.

[MtlMario]

I wonder if the CSA would be all national team players (past and present) if all the problems would be resolved (more money for youth camps, more home games, more money for the players etc etc). I don't see any standing in line for positions to solve all the earths problems. This reminds me of politics, it's easy to have all the answers when you are in the opposition. Just wondering.

[scooterlawrence5]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

1. Men went on strike and negotiated without having legal counsel. This is so niave.
2. Women went on strike - Illegally. Thats horrible planning and business sense. 
3. The women were talking about equal pay and transparency. They then get really upset when the CSA for releasing the proposed bargaining agreement. The timing was dubious but why does timing matter if the CSA does exactly what you ask for. The answer is that the proposed agreement had information that discredited the womens claims. Horrible business sense to go into the heritage meetings under the guise of unequal pay when they clearly had an equal pay deal. (we can debate equal treatment)
4. The demands for the prize money. Demanding basically all the money from the WC but simultaneously thinking there should be more money for operations. This shows a real lack of understanding.
5. Claims that the CSB deal funnels money from the womens youth teams and operating costs into a private company. This is 100% false. The CSA made under 1million in sponsorship prior to the CSB deal. The CSB deal gives 4million to CSA. Theres now 3million plus for CSA operations. (We can debate if we are leaving food on the table by only getting 4 million, but theres no money being taken away from operations). 

An insightful and accurate post.  Well done Bigandy.  Let me add to your commentary:

1.  The MNT technically "boycotted" the Panama match with no notice (CSA reported that they learned of the boycott from the same tweet we all saw 45 minutes before kick off).  Un-effing-believable!  MNT technically did NOT strike as they were NOT registered as a players association as of yet. So, the MNT financially hurt (egregiously on purpose) the association (and by extension themselves) to the tune of about $3+ million in costs (lost revenues and operational costs) from that match alone.  And the soccer community gives them a pass?  No way!  In any other respected federation, the B team would have played the rest of the summer.  That money could have easily paid for the current negotiation gap and WNT's desire for a chef, etc.  Legally, the MNT could be sued for conspiracy, and would lose in court.  I'm in full agreement with Bigandy 100%.  The MNT were so naive!  Negotiating by themselves for after tax dollars in shady suitcases on the back of napkins. They had no concept of equal pay with the WNT, and probably still don't care today because this issue is only about greed!  The MNT and WNT alliance regarding joint negotiations is 100% fake!  So, is the MNT's apology to the fans who the players have no problem in shafting for their selfish greed, Herdman included.  By boycotting the Panama match with no notice, the MNT players wounded themselves, with the same magnitude as a CSB annual payment.  How ironic!

2.  The WNT had an equal pay offer from the start.  The detailed offer was made public a couple of months ago by the CSA and both WNT and MNT have had it since June 2022.  The offer is more than generous.  Every player (all 26 on MNT and all 26 on WNT) will earn $136,000 each in world cup prize money even if the WNT lays three goose eggs in Australia like the MNT did in Qatar.  $136,000 per player!  Makes both the WNT and MNT among highest paid in all of FIFA, which based on field performance we all know neither of them deserve. Once again, the CSA gave them transparency (what they've been asking for) and shared these numbers with the whole world and the players didn't like it.  That is the most hypocritical element to this whole thing and makes the players look so disingenuous.  I guess transparency only counts for some things and not others.

3.  The WNT originally had no problem with the June 2022 offer.  There is evidence in the media back in June that they were actually happy with the offer and were close to signing it.  So, what happened?  The MNT did not want the deal because they felt ripped off by unexpectedly being forced to share their "pot of gold of $10m from FIFA".  Again, selfish self-interest and greed.  The WNT only started getting upset with the deal when they saw how the MNT were treated in Qatar.  The WNT saw the high-end hotels, meals, flights, and services in Doha and got enraged.  Again, it's about greed.  Plus, this is a FIFA issue not a CSA issue.  FIFA determines the service levels at their events and whether the WNT like it or not, the men's World Cup is still the king of all sporting events.

4.  It's an absolute slap in the face that the WNT and MNT care about youth soccer.  They do NOT.  If they did, they would have left some prize money for the CSA to use to fund their other initiatives (U20, U17, U15, para, beach, coaching, referee, grassroots, etc.).   As is stands, the June 2022 offer leaves less than 20% of the Qatar prize money for CSA operations.  The CSB annual payment of $3m to the CSA is a "useless leg to stand on" for the players.  It represents about 10% of CSA's annual revenues which is nothing. Even if it were doubled to $6m per year (which CSB will never agree to) that still won't put a dent on the woeful resources the youth teams will receive.  Plus, the senior players would still be greedy enough to take that extra money for themselves.  The CSA saw an opportunity to solidify their cash flows back in 2018 when they were only getting just over a million a year from sponsorship in the year before, and paying a million a year to TSN and SportsNet to get games on TV for over a decade.  Anyone with half a brain would have agreed to the CSB offer.  The fact that the CSB deal gets conflated with the collective bargaining agreement is an absolutely "deflection tactic" by the MNT and WNT's lawyers, the biased media, and self-serving MPs.  Nothing more and nothing less.  Even the Birarda issue has become a deflection strategy.  Just five days ago it was confirmed that Birarda does NOT have to register with the sex offenders database when he gets out of jail.  This is in 2023!  Birarda could move next door to your house, and you would never know.  Even though he was criminally convicted and is in jail for his crimes that have nothing to do with the CSA!   YET, the heritage committee believes that the CSA should have had Birarda flagged in a database back in 2008 (when the coaches database never existed). But today in 2023, Birarda still doesn't have to be in a sex offenders database.  Holy cow!

5.  CSB deal did not include women's pro soccer because the CSA was already paying about a million a year to the NWSL in salaries for the WNT players for a decade.  Why does everyone forget that?  The CSA was directly funding the WNT players salaries and supporting bids to host the women's world cup in Canada way before the CPL kicked a ball.  Sinclair's salary was paid for by the CSA (not Portland) yet she argues they were treated unfairly.  Osorio's TFC salary was never paid for by the CSA.  Again, 100% disingenuous.

In summary, Canada Soccer has had three strategic plans in the last decade.  All three are very clear with their objectives and goals.  And yes, the WNT were supported way more than the MNT in the first two iterations.  Then the focus switched to the MNT in the latter years as we garnered success and leveraged a better player pool.  It's like having two siblings and the daughter complains when the son gets a better gift for Christmas.  Problem is, the son never complained once when the daughter was getting paid her salary in the NWSL and hosted two world cups for them.  Now the tables have turned and the son gets some much needed attention, his own league and his own world cup, and the daughter is losing her mind.  Media pundits have no clue, former players are biased, and sponsors are running for the hills again after a World Cup year. Again, 100% disingenuous.

Players must perform on the field, not behind a desk.  Executives allocate scarce resources the best way they can.  The problem now is will the WNT ever perform again like they have over the last decade?  I'm nervous for them in Australia.  Of course, I want them to win it all, we all do, but I'm not sure they will even get past the group stage or the first knockout stage.  And as for the MNT, they've done nothing yet compared to the WNT.  If they lay an egg at Nations League in Las Vegas and another one in Gold Cup later this summer, neither the WNT nor the MNT will have any leverage for negotiation whatsoever by late summer.  In the meantime, the association has already been blown up, barely anyone is left, many executives have left, volunteers have been shamed as scapegoats, and our country will be forever remembered for having two teams: an Olympic gold medalist, and top of table in Concacaf soon after burn the house down.  This is all on the players.  Sad but true.  I leave you with two words again: disingenuous greed.

P.S.  One last important note regarding how we move forward.  There is no way that a new general secretary who is the CEO of Canada Soccer and responsible for assessing and firing the MNT and WNT coaches can do that properly and independently when he was a prior assistant coach to both of them.  More lunacy!  And it's only begun.

[Bigandy]

47 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I didn't post a quote from Amy Walsh.

You would have to speak to the players as to why they feel they don't trust the CSA.  Having had dealings ( minimal ) with different soccer associations, I believe them.

Ok, I will rephrase.

You quoted Ozzie's post of amy walsh and reaffirmed the sentiment of her post.  But it sounds like you do not wish to have a discussion about the details, but rather that no matter what evidence is presented, you will side with the players? Perhaps I misunderstand you? 

[Bigandy]

9 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

An insightful and accurate post.  Well done Bigandy.  Let me add to your commentary:

1.  The MNT technically "boycotted" the Panama match with no notice (CSA reported that they learned of the boycott from the same tweet we all saw 45 minutes before kick off).  Un-effing-believable!  MNT technically did NOT strike as they were NOT registered as a players association as of yet. So, the MNT financially hurt (egregiously on purpose) the association (and by extension themselves) to the tune of about $3+ million in costs (lost revenues and operational costs) from that match alone.  And the soccer community gives them a pass?  No way!  In any other respected federation, the B team would have played the rest of the summer.  That money could have easily paid for the current negotiation gap and WNT's desire for a chef, etc.  Legally, the MNT could be sued for conspiracy, and would lose in court.  I'm in full agreement with Bigandy 100%.  The MNT were so naive!  Negotiating by themselves for after tax dollars in shady suitcases on the back of napkins. They had no concept of equal pay with the WNT, and probably still don't care today because this issue is only about greed!  The MNT and WNT alliance regarding joint negotiations is 100% fake!  So, is the MNT's apology to the fans who the players have no problem in shafting for their selfish greed, Herdman included.  By boycotting the Panama match with no notice, the MNT players wounded themselves, with the same magnitude as a CSB annual payment.  How ironic!

2.  The WNT had an equal pay offer from the start.  The detailed offer was made public a couple of months ago by the CSA and both WNT and MNT have had it since June 2022.  The offer is more than generous.  Every player (all 26 on MNT and all 26 on WNT) will earn $136,000 each in world cup prize money even if the WNT lays three goose eggs in Australia like the MNT did in Qatar.  $136,000 per player!  Makes both the WNT and MNT among highest paid in all of FIFA, which based on field performance we all know neither of them deserve. Once again, the CSA gave them transparency (what they've been asking for) and shared these numbers with the whole world and the players didn't like it.  That is the most hypocritical element to this whole thing and makes the players look so disingenuous.  I guess transparency only counts for some things and not others.

3.  The WNT originally had no problem with the June 2022 offer.  There is evidence in the media back in June that they were actually happy with the offer and were close to signing it.  So, what happened?  The MNT did not want the deal because they felt ripped off by unexpectedly being forced to share their "pot of gold of $10m from FIFA".  Again, selfish self-interest and greed.  The WNT only started getting upset with the deal when they saw how the MNT were treated in Qatar.  The WNT saw the high-end hotels, meals, flights, and services in Doha and got enraged.  Again, it's about greed.  Plus, this is a FIFA issue not a CSA issue.  FIFA determines the service levels at their events and whether the WNT like it or not, the men's World Cup is still the king of all sporting events.

4.  It's an absolute slap in the face that the WNT and MNT care about youth soccer.  They do NOT.  If they did, they would have left some prize money for the CSA to use to fund their other initiatives (U20, U17, U15, para, beach, coaching, referee, grassroots, etc.).   As is stands, the June 2022 offer leaves less than 20% of the Qatar prize money for CSA operations.  The CSB annual payment of $3m to the CSA is a "useless leg to stand on" for the players.  It represents about 10% of CSA's annual revenues which is nothing. Even if it were doubled to $6m per year (which CSB will never agree to) that still won't put a dent on the woeful resources the youth teams will receive.  Plus, the senior players would still be greedy enough to take that extra money for themselves.  The CSA saw an opportunity to solidify their cash flows back in 2018 when they were only getting just over a million a year from sponsorship in the year before, and paying a million a year to TSN and SportsNet to get games on TV for over a decade.  Anyone with half a brain would have agreed to the CSB offer.  The fact that the CSB deal gets conflated with the collective bargaining agreement is an absolutely "deflection tactic" by the MNT and WNT's lawyers, the biased media, and self-serving MPs.  Nothing more and nothing less.  Even the Birarda issue has become a deflection strategy.  Just five days ago it was confirmed that Birarda does NOT have to register with the sex offenders database when he gets out of jail.  This is in 2023!  Birarda could move next door to your house, and you would never know.  Even though he was criminally convicted and is in jail for his crimes that have nothing to do with the CSA!   YET, the heritage committee believes that the CSA should have had Birarda flagged in a database back in 2008 (when the coaches database never existed). But today in 2023, Birarda still doesn't have to be in a sex offenders database.  Holy cow!

5.  CSB deal did not include women's pro soccer because the CSA was already paying about a million a year to the NWSL in salaries for the WNT players for a decade.  Why does everyone forget that?  The CSA was directly funding the WNT players salaries and supporting bids to host the women's world cup in Canada way before the CPL kicked a ball.  Sinclair's salary was paid for by the CSA (not Portland) yet she argues they were treated unfairly.  Osorio's TFC salary was never paid for by the CSA.  Again, 100% disingenuous.

In summary, Canada Soccer has had three strategic plans in the last decade.  All three are very clear with their objectives and goals.  And yes, the WNT were supported way more than the MNT in the first two iterations.  Then the focus switched to the MNT in the latter years as we garnered success and leveraged a better player pool.  It's like having two siblings and the daughter complains when the son gets a better gift for Christmas.  Problem is, the son never complained once when the daughter was getting paid her salary in the NWSL and hosted two world cups for them.  Now the tables have turned and the son gets some much needed attention, his own league and his own world cup, and the daughter is losing her mind.  Media pundits have no clue, former players are biased, and sponsors are running for the hills again after a World Cup year. Again, 100% disingenuous.

Players must perform on the field, not behind a desk.  Executives allocate scarce resources the best way they can.  The problem now is will the WNT ever perform again like they have over the last decade?  I'm nervous for them in Australia.  Of course, I want them to win it all, we all do, but I'm not sure they will even get past the group stage or the first knockout stage.  And as for the MNT, they've done nothing yet compared to the WNT.  If they lay an egg at Nations League in Las Vegas and another one in Gold Cup later this summer, neither the WNT nor the MNT will have any leverage for negotiation whatsoever by late summer.  In the meantime, the association has already been blown up, barely anyone is left, many executives have left, volunteers have been shamed as scapegoats, and our country will be forever remembered for having two teams: an Olympic gold medalist, and top of table in Concacaf soon after burn the house down.  This is all on the players.  Sad but true.  I leave you with two words again: disingenuous greed.

P.S.  One last important note regarding how we move forward.  There is no way that a new general secretary who is the CEO of Canada Soccer and responsible for assessing and firing the MNT and WNT coaches can do that properly and independently when he was a prior assistant coach to both of them.  More lunacy!  And it's only begun.

Thanks for engaging! Lots of extension of what I have said/felt and also lots of my feelings that I couldnt quite express were captured in this post. 

I agree that theres so much greed involved but I could get over the fact that players want a bigger pay day IF they didnt sewer our federation and the fans in the process. 

If they said, "we qualified and therefore we deserve the prize money" then however much they get can be dealt with by CSA. But to use youth teams and gender inequality as a way to get a pay raise, while simultaneously screwing over fans, is not cool.  

[Ottawafan]

3 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Ok, I will rephrase.

You quoted Ozzie's post of amy walsh and reaffirmed the sentiment of her post.  But it sounds like you do not wish to have a discussion about the details, but rather that no matter what evidence is presented, you will side with the players? Perhaps I misunderstand you? 

I quoted his post and bolded his comment. 

Post as many details as you like, and if it is what you choose to believe, all the power to you.  My first and foremost concern is the players working with the CSA to ensure that all players ( men and women ) happy and believe in the program, in the CSA.  

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

I quoted his post and bolded his comment. 

Post as many details as you like, and if it is what you choose to believe, all the power to you.  My first and foremost concern is the players working with the CSA to ensure that all players ( men and women ) happy and believe in the program, in the CSA.  

That's great. That is my first and foremost concern too! I just believe that talking openly about the facts and using evidence and financial figures are the way to be most accurate about getting CSA and the men and womens team on the same page.  It sounds like you have your mind made up that the CSA is bad and the players are correct so I won't push you to continue this conversation as I probably will or have already offended you. Im glad we both want the program to succeed!

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

An insightful and accurate post.  Well done Bigandy.  Let me add to your commentary:

1.  The MNT technically "boycotted" the Panama match with no notice (CSA reported that they learned of the boycott from the same tweet we all saw 45 minutes before kick off).  Un-effing-believable!  MNT technically did NOT strike as they were NOT registered as a players association as of yet. So, the MNT financially hurt (egregiously on purpose) the association (and by extension themselves) to the tune of about $3+ million in costs (lost revenues and operational costs) from that match alone.  And the soccer community gives them a pass?  No way!  In any other respected federation, the B team would have played the rest of the summer. 

Player boycotts like that happen not-infrequently elsewhere, it's hardly unprecedented. And the CSA were the ones who wasted so much time that the players got frustrated with the lack of cooperation and lack of transparency.

While I agree, incidentally, that the players also clearly were a bit unclear on the details of the CSB deal, the CSA itself is also somewhat responsible for that since they consistently refuse to let people see the actual terms of the CSB deal.

1 hour ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

4.  It's an absolute slap in the face that the WNT and MNT care about youth soccer.  They do NOT.  If they did, they would have left some prize money for the CSA to use to fund their other initiatives (U20, U17, U15, para, beach, coaching, referee, grassroots, etc.).   As is stands, the June 2022 offer leaves less than 20% of the Qatar prize money for CSA operations.  The CSB annual payment of $3m to the CSA is a "useless leg to stand on" for the players.  It represents about 10% of CSA's annual revenues which is nothing. Even if it were doubled to $6m per year (which CSB will never agree to) that still won't put a dent on the woeful resources the youth teams will receive.

The FIFA payment for qualifying was an unexpected windfall, it would never have been planned on to cover ordinary operating expenses. The CSA started cutting existing program spending, we're not even talking about expanding it.

[Bison44]

52 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

The FIFA payment for qualifying was an unexpected windfall, it would never have been planned on to cover ordinary operating expenses. The CSA started cutting existing program spending, we're not even talking about expanding it.

See it cant be both ways.  Detractors fault CSA for making a bad CSB deal that locks us in for min 10 years and they should have known we were going to qualify for Qatar.  But at the same time CSA shouldnt have counted on any FIFA qualification money.  

I think eventually they must have figured we were going to qualify (fall 2021?) and prob had some of that money (10mil) ear marked (and then overspent on the remainder of mens WCQ) for post WC operations.  And when the they ran into the men playing hardball and the women wanting the same %, they got caught with their pants down all the while getting it in ass from the press.  Then cuts for the women, more ass F#cking from press, then ass f#cking from gov inquiries, everyone resigns and no one seems to remember we have youth programs. Whew, so now the same people can rip the next dummies that agree to take a volunteer job to help soccer.  

[Ansem]

Great convo everyone! Good to see facts being discussed challenging the "feelings" & "assumptions" of the players and people with agendas fuelling this drama.

If everyone worked together in this country on soccer, this sport could be as big as hockey. The infighting is convenient for those who don't want to see it happen and who have invested interest in other ventures.

Just my 2 cents

[Ruud]

4 hours ago, MtlMario said:

I wonder if the CSA would be all national team players (past and present) if all the problems would be resolved (more money for youth camps, more home games, more money for the players etc etc). I don't see any standing in line for positions to solve all the earths problems. This reminds me of politics, it's easy to have all the answers when you are in the opposition. Just wondering.

Not to mention negotiating…