The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[El Hombre]

On 3/6/2023 at 12:52 PM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What are you even talking about with that last part? Conversation over.

NARRATOR: But the conversation, in fact, was not "over".

I've spent the last four days trying to catch up on this topic between meetings and was so excited when I saw this, until I saw that there were still four more pages of posts to go through.  I only skimmed the rest.  I assume everything is good now and everybody's happy?  Anyone want to give me the 411 on who I should be mad at now?  Much appreciated.

[Ottawafan]

2 hours ago, Ivan said:

The lack of the women's pro league is the only argument I can see for lack of equity at this point.  I think you have that right.

The rest of this post is not directed at you Ozzie, we know your opinion on the direction the CPL should take. 

However, because the CSB failed to start up a women's league, which was in their plans as they hired Moscato to advise, then the pandemic hit so they are behind schedule.  All indications are that the women's league was still in their plans, just too slow for the women who are now venturing out on their own with Project 8 - good for them.  Hopefully, the CSB will support them, which it sounds like they want to. 

So this equity hearing is out to destroy the CPL because a women's league hasn't started yet?  Too harsh a take?

I don't see this hearing as a way to take a run at the CPL or CSB.  The focus seems to be around the perceived inequality of the women under the CSA umbrella.  As a governing body who receives money from the feds, it seems to be in their mandate.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Ottawafan

[dyslexic nam]

27 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

NARRATOR: But the conversation, in fact, was not "over".

I've spent the last four days trying to catch up on this topic between meetings and was so excited when I saw this, until I saw that there were still four more pages of posts to go through.  I only skimmed the rest.  I assume everything is good now and everybody's happy?  Anyone want to give me the 411 on who I should be mad at now?  Much appreciated.

All issues are completely resolved and we have reached a consensus that OTP was correct the whole time.  

[Ansem]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The function of the CSA is to sanction said leagues and provide player registration, match officials for games, and discipline procedures etc after they are up and running but the leagues are private businesses that could reasonably be expected to be self-sustaining financially. Since the 1960s, FIFA have provided Canada with access to the USSF pyramid so there was no actual pressing need for Canada to have its own leagues at the D1 and/or D2 sort of level.

So you have no problem with Canada staying irrelevant on the global stage just to satisfy your need of depending exclusively on USSF league? Bizarre

 

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

That was something that the CSA board decided they wanted to pursue so they actively blocked further access to the USSF pyramid from around 2010 or so.

Because results actually matters and doing the same thing over and over while having the same result is truly insanity

 

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The big problem with the CSB deal is that it prioritizes support for men's pro soccer over women's pro soccer but involves sponsorship income related to both the CMNT and CWNT so a strategic decision was clearly being made that having a domestic league structure for men's professional soccer was more important than doing it on the women's side.

CPL is a prerequisite to host the World Cup. The CSA saw what hosting did for the US in 1994 and hope it would boost the game popularity and investment here as well so it made sense to start with the men. Also, the men program was in disarray compared to the ladies who were easily a top 10 team, so also made sense.

However (sigh)... a global pandemic happened and lockdown everywhere force leagues to shutdown seasons and take massive financial hits. This happened to CPL in year 2 up until last year - you could say that 2023 will be the "true normal" 2nd season of CPL.

Of course, focusing on keeping CPL from folding was the priority because if it folds - you can forget about a women's league altogether and this would have set back pro soccer in Canada significantly. The anti-CSB crowd use the same tired argument as a way to bash CPL instead of using pure common sense.

Rollins, far from a CPL lover, even said that CPL was working on a women's league following some staff turnover but were blindsided by Project 8 announcement. Personally, that's a poor way to do business as CSB would have been a powerful ally to make this easier to make this happen faster. So, CPL can't realistically continue with their project on the side since the PR would be atrocious.

 

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If they had instead sanctioned something more in tune with the findings of the Easton report that was readily self-sustaining at a lower budget revolving around bus rather than air travel that had both a women's and men's component from the get go, there would be nothing for the committee to investigate at this point in equity terms.

They are revamping and expanding D3 with an aim to professionalize it (way overdue). We can't have both this and CPL why exactly?

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Ivan said:

The lack of the women's pro league is the only argument I can see for lack of equity at this point.  I think you have that right.

The rest of this post is not directed at you Ozzie, we know your opinion on the direction the CPL should take. 

However, because the CSB failed to start up a women's league, which was in their plans as they hired Moscato to advise, then the pandemic hit so they are behind schedule.  All indications are that the women's league was still in their plans, just too slow for the women who are now venturing out on their own with Project 8 - good for them.  Hopefully, the CSB will support them, which it sounds like they want to. 

So this equity hearing is out to destroy the CPL because a women's league hasn't started yet?  Too harsh a take?

To add to what you said, for CSB to get blamed as not being fair towards the women - they'll have to establish that CSB intentionally acted unfairly. They can easily prove the opposite via their involvement in setting up the League 1 Canada cup before the men and helping to grow the D3 women's leagues as well. Like you said, they did hire staff to work on it and the global pandemic being a "force majeur" for delaying the league would be deemed acceptable by virtually anyone... except to those with an agenda.

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

I don't see this hearing as a way to take a run at the CPL or CSB.  The focus seems to be around the perceived inequality of the women under the CSA umbrella.  As a governing body who receives money from the feds, it seems to be in their mandate.

That's the best argument that the women have although I'm not convinced how black and white it actually is. The "Own the podium" thing should be investigated fully - they deserve to know what happened there.

Unfortunately, I feel that this will end up in a CSB bashing since underneath it all - we all understand that the CSA is broke so pressuring the deal with CSB to go away or get reopen to access more money becomes the obvious play.

I'm just disappointed that they don't seem to care about the impact if this happen and where the men's game would be after such a setback. I personally feel that "some" are used to the women's game having all the attention and glorification and at the minute the men got some of the spotlight - the resentment started to surface. Not great

[Ottawafan]

6 minutes ago, Ansem said:

That's the best argument that the women have although I'm not convinced how black and white it actually is. The "Own the podium" thing should be investigated fully - they deserve to know what happened there.

Unfortunately, I feel that this will end up in a CSB bashing since underneath it all - we all understand that the CSA is broke so pressuring the deal with CSB to go away or get reopen to access more money becomes the obvious play.

I'm just disappointed that they don't seem to care about the impact if this happen and where the men's game would be after such a setback. I personally feel that "some" are used to the women's game having all the attention and glorification and at the minute the men got some of the spotlight - the resentment started to surface. Not great

No clue how the hearing will shape up, if it will be a narrow focus or throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what may stick.  let it play out, and we can judge afterwards.

I don't see it as resentment but who knows.  I kinda see it as the NT's have never been in a better place than they are now, and everything has been raised up.  Expectations, results, treatment, $$$$.  Rising tides and all.  

Canada soccer is now on another level.  Time for all to start acting that way.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

NARRATOR: But the conversation, in fact, was not "over".

I've spent the last four days trying to catch up on this topic between meetings and was so excited when I saw this, until I saw that there were still four more pages of posts to go through.  I only skimmed the rest.  I assume everything is good now and everybody's happy?  Anyone want to give me the 411 on who I should be mad at now?  Much appreciated.

We have only ourselves to blame. 

Personally, I hate those fucking "Depth" threads, not going to suck me into posting on those.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

To add to what you said, for CSB to get blamed as not being fair towards the women - they'll have to establish that CSB intentionally acted unfairly. They can easily prove the opposite via their involvement in setting up the League 1 Canada cup before the men and helping to grow the D3 women's leagues as well. Like you said, they did hire staff to work on it and the global pandemic being a "force majeur" for delaying the league would be deemed acceptable by virtually anyone... except to those with an agenda.

Atlético Ottawa comes into CPL from day one talking about the women's game as well. Never skipped a beat, they were on board from the start. There were plently of signs, there was will, intention and the stakeholders were on board.

However much it is clear that the CSA is incompetent and handles things terrible over and over again; and that CSB has not done enough in two key areas: growing in Québec and creating content in French; and the women's game.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Shway]

114 pages and counting of hoopla.....It's only fitting right? 

[Ansem]

52 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

However much it is clear that the CSA is incompetent and handles things terrible over and over again; and that CSB has not done enough in two key areas: growing in Québec and creating content in French; and the women's game.

Totally agree on the French content, pandemic is not a valid reason to not have created more stuff in French. As for the women's game, we do have a televised Memorial Cup for the women's champions in League 1 Canada that didn't exist before. It might not be a women's CPL but that's still growth

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, Ansem said:

To add to what you said, for CSB to get blamed as not being fair towards the women - they'll have to establish that CSB intentionally acted unfairly. They can easily prove the opposite via their involvement in setting up the League 1 Canada cup before the men and helping to grow the D3 women's leagues as well. Like you said, they did hire staff to work on it and the global pandemic being a "force majeur" for delaying the league would be deemed acceptable by virtually anyone... except to those with an agenda.

I don't know, hope you're right, but AJ seemed to be pretty focused in his interview on TSN on the CSB as "getting those details out in the public" as if the players still believe it is a bad thing and is what is holding back youth development.

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/video/johnston-weve-been-in-solidarity-with-womens-national-team-the-e~2643332

 

[Ottawafan]

23 minutes ago, Ivan said:

I don't know, hope you're right, but AJ seemed to be pretty focused in his interview on TSN on the CSB as "getting those details out in the public" as if the players still believe it is a bad thing and is what is holding back youth development.

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/video/johnston-weve-been-in-solidarity-with-womens-national-team-the-e~2643332

 

So do you think AJ is wrong in his belief?

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Shway said:

114 pages and counting of hoopla.....It's only fitting right? 

The next iteration will be "City, Milan and Barcelona interested in Players vs. CSA Dispute"

[Ivan]

3 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

So do you think AJ is wrong in his belief?

Based on everything I've read and heard to date, yes, I think he's wrong in his belief. I don't want to regurgitate everything I have written in these 114 pages, but I believe I have explained my position that it's all about money, and where it should be allocated.

Now, if something comes out when the details are made public that proves to be nefarious, I reserve the right to change my mind.

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Ivan said:

 

Now, if something comes out when the details are made public that proves to be nefarious, I reserve the right to change my mind.

I feel like this applies to every single person who seems to be giving the CSA/CSB the benefit of the doubt. 

3 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

So do you think AJ is wrong in his belief?

After watching the interview, I can't help but feel like the players (or at least Johnston) simply wants transparency so that a foundation of trust can be laid. This is a very simple ask and he comes off as being very genuine, which is why I like him. 

That said, my gut tells me there will be no massive corruption revel here, no scandalous thing the CSA is hiding, at least I hope not. I mean I wouldn't put the odds of this as being zero, but I just keep telling myself they are not evil and devious, just lacking in transparency because it's always been that way. The CSA are not a major player and haven't had to deal with being under the microscope, thus no external pressure existed to force them to do better. Now that pressure has arrived, it's not as easy as everyone getting on board with being transparent and open. Trying to turn an organizations culture can be like trying to turn a giant ship. People don't like change, especially change that opens them up to scrutiny. 

[Obinna]

And to add, I would like to think the men (at least) could accept a lack of funding once they can see the numbers for themselves. The women (lumping them all together) seem to be in an ideological fight, so I am less sure they will be satisfied even when the facts come out. It will be interesting to see where this all goes. 

[InglewoodJack]

Good Housefather interview on the northern futbol pod about all of this.

[red card]

2 hours ago, InglewoodJack said:

Good Housefather interview on the northern futbol pod about all of this.

He was asked quite a few leading questions but I liked that he repeatedly said he didn't want to pre-judge things. 

His committee looks at governance & transparency. He's a lawyer from Quebec. Members are 6 from Liberals, 5 from Conservatives and 1 each from Bloc/NDP.

First he has heard of national sports org signing a CSB type deal (obviously he's not aware of SUM). Questioned length of deal and unilateral option to extend it. Hasn't seen contract yet but could be still in translation.

Canada Soccer was one of 7/8 sport orgs where they were already looking at requested minutes due to Iran match issue & other allegations. He said CSA Board minutes are better than Hockey Canada as they didn't include things that would get them in hot water. Complete different level of professionalism. But it also means less information can be gleaned.

Potential question for women players: What have they been given access to? Why do they feel they don't have power to freely negotiate? Want to see if their side is reasonable. Incorrectly stated that no women's player is on the board.

Potential questions for Canada Soccer: Did board have access to CSB deal? Did they have meaningful input into the deal? Or did one person dominate? Is there anybody else to be called - some say Victor should be called. But only can know after these 2 meetings. 

Sexual assault issues are main part of other sport orgs but only a part for Canada Soccer. Didn't know if the Birarda issue was investigated (it was by 2 groups). Can't presume Canada Soccer isn't a safe sport org.

He will become more aggressive if there are mis-statements as Hockey Canada did. Initially he will show respect for Canada Soccer as he did with Hockey Canada.

Labour negotiations are best when agreed upon by the parties. Doesn't want to intervene. Process needs to be fair and equal access to information which is an area they would ask about. Won't try to cause problems for the process.

 

[red card]

McCown/Shannon had the Star's Bruce Arthur to discuss the business side of the various Canada Soccer issues. Unlike most other discussions, it was more balanced & only a handful of things Arthur said were off base or missed including.

Arthur says he got the CSB contract over the weekend but hasn't read it yet. Canada Soccer dipped heavily into its reserves for Qatar prep is likely why they're cash strapped now. Some of it because it costs more money when you get more players at tier 1 European clubs. More talk about Mont Vic than any other discussion I have heard.

His experts say $10 million is being generated from sponsors now (Westhead's experts said $15-20m). Likely more realistic as when CSA peaked with 20 sponsors due to hosting WWC15, sponsors revenue was $8.5m.

Some wealthy guys are interested in funding the teams. Lots of risk of staff leaving along with Herdman/Priestman. CSB payout is now at $4m.

McCown kept on asking who are the bad guys as Arthur couldn't say anybody was definitively - even with CSB which is the bad guy for most, Arthur had qualifications.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by red card

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Only of marginal relevance maybe but an interesting development in terms of TSN being interested in being a broadcaster for women's professional soccer:

...The NWSL features Canadian players on 10 of its 12 teams, highlighted by reigning NWSL champion and Portland Thorns FC mainstays Christine Sinclair and Janine Beckie...

Suspect the possibility of a Canadian NWSL team isn't completely off the radar at this point. That plus Project 8 are scenarios where there would be unequal treatment if only CSB/CanPL were benefiting from a deal that bundled CMNT and CWNT rights out to 2037, if CanPL fails to launch a women's pro league.

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Shway]

No surprise there, and they have nothing to show in the summer. Just a bunch of niche sports like curling, darts, and golf. 

Seems like a sheer optics move, but nevertheless a good one.

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, Shway said:

No surprise there, and they have nothing to show in the summer. Just a bunch of niche sports like curling, darts, and golf. 

Seems like a sheer optics move, but nevertheless a good one.

Golf isn't exactly a niche sport for Canadian tv viewing.

I find it hard to justify them paying an American league because there are a handful of Canadians dotted about in various teams. Sending our resources south of the border, what's the mid or long term benefit?

[Ottawafan]

15 hours ago, Ivan said:

Based on everything I've read and heard to date, yes, I think he's wrong in his belief. I don't want to regurgitate everything I have written in these 114 pages, but I believe I have explained my position that it's all about money, and where it should be allocated.

Now, if something comes out when the details are made public that proves to be nefarious, I reserve the right to change my mind.

Not interested in rehashing the discussion about CSB but saying it's all about the money, you obviously have never been part of soccer in this country.  Every level of game in Canada is a cash grab.  Everything.  It is one big racket.

The players are just now realizing what they bring to the table and want to make sure they get what they have worked to create.

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Not interested in rehashing the discussion about CSB but saying it's all about the money, you obviously have never been part of soccer in this country.  Every level of game in Canada is a cash grab.  Everything.  It is one big racket.

The players are just now realizing what they bring to the table and want to make sure they get what they have worked to create.

Well, I was VP of our local club for a while and sat on the NRGSL board, but I don't remember any cash grabs, in fact I remember the opposite being true.  We were always looking to raise funds to run teams and programs somehow.

Anyway, I don't begrudge the players their bonus money.  I despise the fact they are calling out the CSB as the culprits in all this because, once they take their 80 %, there is none left over for the NT programs at all levels.  But somehow this is all because of the CSB deal, which is probably the best development tool Canadian soccer has implemented (at least for men's soccer currently).

I remember Herdman doing an interview before the had qualified for 2022WC on Footy Prime or Northern Futbol and he said the most important aspect of qualifying for the next two WCs was the bonus money from FIFA would allow them to run all their programs at all ages for the men and women. How'd that work out?