The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Ansem]

28 minutes ago, RS said:

Who are you posing this question to? It certainly cannot be me because I suggested no such thing (and I even said I'd agree with charging MLS more than what they are currently paying).

Again, this must be aimed at someone else because I never said anything about giving it away. Your inability to see beyond "MLS bad, CPL/CSB good" seems to be hindering you from seeing any kind of nuance on this.

For the record, I like what both MLS and CPL have to offer and I have almost certainly been to more CPL stadiums than you have. And also for the record, both leagues can be doing much, much more.

Depends on how much you are talking about. The program needs millions more to achieve sustainability and there's no way the CSA is going to get that out of MLS.

Then what exactly are you talking about? Because your original post bemoaned the fact that MLS pays less collectively for sanctioning than the CPL does even though MLS pay more per club.

I've already stated that MLS can and probably should pay more. So what are we talking about here?

The fact that you see someone challenging you as "jumping to the rescue of MLS" speaks more about your mentality than mine.

Again, this issue is far more complicated than the strict black and white that you seem to pain it as. Nuance is fine, it's not going to kill you.

 

16 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

You are speechless that people have a different opinion of the MLS than you? I see the three Canadian teams as much our teams as the CPL teams. I think the current structure allows Canadians to get experience at multiple levels.

I get from your comments you have a dislike for MLS and repeat the regular negativity but I am glad the MLS fanboys don't create some fud about the CPL like it is draining money from the Canadian youth teams and repeat that in every conversation.

I'll remain as consistent as I've ever been - My issue is with the lack of reciprocity of the roster rules and I've said hundred of times that I'd be fine with both leagues if that was the case. However, MLS keep refusing to address this and it took threats for them to somewhat bend the rules. 

There's nothing extreme in suggesting that they should pay more for their access which is indeed a "privilege" that won't affect their business.

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, narduch said:

I'm guessing other soccer teams do this.

It's totally standard for families to be invited with partial perks, starting with tickets, for a CL final, a Cup final. Because the club can arrange it. So for the CSA to offer some sort of package is not unusual. 

I understand that they mostly paid up front and that the players will have to reimburse their own families out of the bonus package which has yet to be paid.

[WheatsheafSK]

45 minutes ago, narduch said:

The Women's World Cup in Canada also didn't have grass fields.

Not really a good comparison you are making here

I would add to this that women complained at the time about the artificial turf being permitted for a women's WC, while the men had to play grass fields.  The fact that FIFA has not treated the men's and women's game equally or equitabliy is not new.  

[youllneverwalkalone]

47 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Was he a Uni prof? I had a prof named Crooks who taught business law, which he’d make cracks about. Don’t remember his first name though, but very good prof.

He never mentioned it. We mostly talked about football. Big Man U fan. A lot of CA/CPAs do teach accounting classes at some point. 

[Kent]

39 minutes ago, Ansem said:

There's nothing extreme in suggesting that they should pay more for their access which is indeed a "privilege" that won't affect their business.

I think what @RS is saying is, by how much? Currently MLS teams are paying 1.5x what CPL teams are paying. You are saying that's not fair, which raises the question, what would be fair? You could repeat the exact same quote of yours above if the MLS teams were paying 2x, or 5x, or 10x, or 1000x. If MLS still doesn't have fair roster rules, your argument is saying that they should pay more than they already are, with no regard for how much more. If MLS teams are paying 5 million dollars, but the roster rules are still unfair, then I guess there is nothing extreme in suggesting they have to pay more.

For the record, just because I am pointing out a gap in your argument doesn't mean that I am jumping to the defense of MLS. I have no idea what these clubs should be paying. I didn't even know about these payments before today. I don't know if American MLS teams pay, and if they do, how much. I don't know about Real Madrid, Aberdeen, or River Plate either. I have no benchmark for what is and isn't fair.

[RS]

3 minutes ago, Kent said:

For the record, just because I am pointing out a gap in your argument doesn't mean that I am jumping to the defense of MLS.

I need to put this in my signature for every time I respond to @Ansem.

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, RS said:

I need to put this in my signature for every time I respond to @Ansem.

I should do the same with you.

For the record, just because I am pointing out a gap in your argument doesn't mean that I think "MLS is evil". 😇

If you think about it for a second, it's really the CSA I'm criticizing and they should do more with the mechanism at their disposal. At the end of the day, regardless of the bill - the league will pay and go on with their business until they start asking questions.

28 minutes ago, Kent said:

I think what @RS is saying is, by how much? Currently MLS teams are paying 1.5x what CPL teams are paying. You are saying that's not fair, which raises the question, what would be fair? You could repeat the exact same quote of yours above if the MLS teams were paying 2x, or 5x, or 10x, or 1000x. If MLS still doesn't have fair roster rules, your argument is saying that they should pay more than they already are, with no regard for how much more. If MLS teams are paying 5 million dollars, but the roster rules are still unfair, then I guess there is nothing extreme in suggesting they have to pay more.

For the record, just because I am pointing out a gap in your argument doesn't mean that I am jumping to the defense of MLS. I have no idea what these clubs should be paying. I didn't even know about these payments before today. I don't know if American MLS teams pay, and if they do, how much. I don't know about Real Madrid, Aberdeen, or River Plate either. I have no benchmark for what is and isn't fair.

Last time the CSA had enough with the roster rules, Montagliani threaten to pull all 3 teams from MLS.

They are currently paying at x1.5 what CPL pays, it should be double at a minimun and then increase the coefficient until there's change. ($180k total)

Increase the fee on a yearly basis at a faster pace than with our own domestic clubs until they agree to reciprocity. I think what we have here is a viable mechanism to encourage them to change.

Im fully aware that this doesn't change the CSA situation, but if that money could be dedicated to more "play for free programs" that got us Davies or "youth camp funds" why not? That's the group of players really getting the worse deal in all of this.

[Shway]

This pay thing is news to me, and I find the numbers wayyyyy to close for a league that is 5 years old.

MLS Clubs should be paying more than double since they are directly hindering the overall product and influence of the CPL league, while benefiting from the entire country.

There's a lot of eyes on CSB.
But the MLS - CSA relationship needs to be evaluated as well.

 

[RS]

MLS: *Exists in Canada for 12 years before a ball is kicked in CPL*

Some people on this board: "You're hindering the CPL!"

[RS]

28 minutes ago, Ansem said:

I should do the same with you.

Our viewpoints are nowhere near the same. I'm a realist who knows that the MLS and CPL co-existing is the best possible  realistic outcome for Canadian (men's) soccer.

I don't see any of that from your posts. I recall you telling someone else on here (maybe it was @Watchmen) that you can't wait for the MLS waiver to be pulled. That's not exactly the reasonable stance you're purporting to take on this thread.

[Ansem]

8 minutes ago, RS said:

Our viewpoints are nowhere near the same. I'm a realist who knows that the MLS and CPL co-existing is the best possible  realistic outcome for Canadian (men's) soccer.

I don't see any of that from your posts. I recall you telling someone else on here (maybe it was @Watchmen) that you can't wait for the MLS waiver to be pulled. That's not exactly the reasonable stance you're purporting to take on this thread.

Without reciprocity, i stand by what I said. You keep ignoring my posts where i said I'd be fine with both leagues co-existing if that was the case

Edited March 1, 2023 by Ansem

[RS]

2 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Without reciprocity, i stand by what I said. Keep ignoring my posts where i said I'd be fine with both leagues co-existing if that was the case

Will do, since you literally respond to posts of mine and ignore what I wrote in them.

[narduch]

26 minutes ago, Shway said:

But the MLS - CSA relationship needs to be evaluated as well.

 

They should start by not allowing Americans to be counted as domestics on the 3 Canadian teams if we don't get full reciprocity.

[RS]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

They should start by not allowing Americans to be counted as domestics on the 3 Canadian teams if we don't get full reciprocity.

Isn't that the only thing that needs fixing (from a Canada Soccer perspective)?

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, RS said:

Will do, since you literally respond to posts of mine and ignore what I wrote in them.

I fixed my post - I meant to say that you keep ignoring that i said i was fine with reciprocity.

We differ there. I don't see any justification in 2023 for the double standard 

 

[dyslexic nam]

4 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I have a CA acquaintance in London named Andy Crooks. Much worse for an accountant.

My stepdad (#BrokenFamily) is an accountant and his last name is Bent (as in, crooked).  

Edited March 1, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[An Observer]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

My stepdad (#BrokenFamily) is an accountant and his last name is Bent (as in, crooked).  

Is he related to Jason?

[Cheeta]

7 hours ago, Ansem said:

We could start there to find cash - pay up!!!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwidgsDYmrv9AhUXjokEHTEGAokQFnoECAwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.canadasoccer.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F03%2FCanada-Soccer-Fees-2022-EN_FINAL.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1u99klefCu9X2zziPThoyb
 

MLS is paying $30k per clubs --> $90k total

CPL is paying $20k per clubs -->$160k total

Pro clubs pay $2k each.

 

I think that MLS should pay much much much more per clubs and pro clubs operating in a foreign league should see their fees increased significantly. What we are charging for access to 3 of the biggest North American markets is really peanuts in comparison and the league has profited by having this privilege access to Canada by quite a margin.

There should be a massive premium on this, MLS paying less than CPL is ridiculous.

Makes more sense to me to charge MLS FIRST before trying to go for CSB for cash that's being used to grow the sport here.

Think its been raised in the past but the CSA really should look at a poll tax applied against the international professional clubs (so no, not CPL).

$3 a ticket to go see an MLS team would go a long way.  What would that work out to?  Close to a cool $1,000,000 from TFC alone?

[BearcatSA]

5 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I have a CA acquaintance in London named Andy Crooks. Much worse for an accountant.

I thought "Cook" would be a better name for an accountant, as in "cook the books."

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

The association hosting a world cup needs to have a domestic league - the prerequisite hasn't change, never did.

MLS isn't a CSA league no matter how much you hold on to that belief, FIFA doesn't see it that way

The prerequisite to host the world cup was that it must be held in summer, but turns out that prerequisites don't always matter.

[Unnamed Trialist]

I'm stunned by the incoherent consensus. 

It's the CPL clubs that the CSA should be charging more. Triple at least. 4 times more. Far more. 

And far more for referees and disciplinary committee work. 

Whatever the CSA feels is missing to do their job, take it from CSB.

Anything to get them to sit down at the table and renegotiate the deal.

The point is not to make an extra 100,000 from MLS clubs who haven't had anything to do with the current problems. A pittance.

The point is to facilitate much greater revenue by rewriting a badly negotiated deal, by hook or by Crooks. That is done by pressuring with the tools you have available, the cards still left in your hand.

Later, having shown you're working for the greater good, you can go for the reciprocal roster rules in MLS, though it won't put a dime in your pocket.

[narduch]

...

Edited March 2, 2023 by narduch
fuck it why bother

[CanadaFan123]

On 2/28/2023 at 12:06 PM, Ottawafan said:

Going thru the last two pages and reading your comments I am not sure you have a real grasp of reality.  

Well, at least the most unstable member on this board has your back. #youtried 

Also, no reason to doubt anonymous sources from Westhead? That’s wild. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by CanadaFan123

[red card]

6 hours ago, Meepmeep said:

No

We have the CPL because Vic wanted hosting the World Cup on his legacy and didn’t want to bother asking if MLS might count or if there was a possible work around to the condition (if it is in fact a condition). 
In his rush to get this done before he left we have this crap deal.  I wonder if we will ever find out how the CSB people were chosen and if there were other parties interested.  

Not exactly rushed but Montagliani may have had to sweeten the deal and being part of 2026 hosting requirement just became part of the mix later.

As per Kloke's book, Montagliani met with the country's wealthy sports executives. It was Montagliani who invited Scott Mitchell for a lunch in Vancouver back in 2014 to present his proposal. It took Mont Vic 4 years to get the CSB deal done. 

What Montagliani did differently from his predecessors was make people like Mitchell understand that with an inventive business model, there could be financial incentives for early backers. Given his insurance background, the CSB deal is quite similar to structured investment products.

Montagliani's main rationale was stated in his 2014-18 Strategic Plan: Our National Team coaches do not have benefit of selecting players who regularly compete in an elite level domestic league...The development of a home grown system in which our players can compete is of paramount importance.

He also recognized that football had moved to a different place in the Canadian sport landscape with the rise of EA FIFA, the popularity of the sport's biggest stars, viewership levels for World Cups/Olympics and the attention the 3 MLS Canadian teams were getting. But he realized that with Canada's ranking at 122 in 2014, the survival of the team and by extension, domestic football, depended on better infrastructure. 

A more business focused CSA was in Montagliani's vision going back to when he became CSA president in 2012. He wanted to shift CSA's structures from legal mentality, looking out for provincial agendas to entrepreneurial and having more professionalized promotions and marketing.

He viewed CSA as too dependent on volunteer directors to make crucial decisions and player registration fees to keep CSA afloat. He wanted to ensure CSA took more financial risks, especially with sponsorship opportunities, to increase financial resources.

 

[dyslexic nam]

4 hours ago, RS said:

Isn't that the only thing that needs fixing (from a Canada Soccer perspective)?

Even the most staunch defendant of MLS has to admit that is still a pretty big deal tho.  Americans are treated as domestics on American and Canadian teams, full stop.  Canadians are treated as domestics only for Canadian teams, unless they follow a specific developmental pathway.  That is a pretty big discrepancy - and the gap only got narrowed because of pressure from this side of the border.  If Canadians were treated as equals within the league, a lot of people (or at least a passionate minority) would be far more sympathetic to MLS.  But the fact that the league brass attempted to address the issue through some half measure (while generally upholding some sort of discriminatory status quo) is a sore spot for many here.  It was a petty half-measure that reinforced our status as second class citizens within the league.   The fact that there are two sets of rules for players of different nationalities undeniably reinforces that division. And that division is why, I believe, a lot of folks here negatively view those who are all-in on MLS and seemingly have blinders when it comes to  some of the matters related to national footy interests.  

Edited March 2, 2023 by dyslexic nam