The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Ottawafan]

8 hours ago, Ruud said:

We really are too big a country not to have provinces play a critical role.  We do differ from other countries in this way 

The CSA should be dictating soccer for the country instead of having each province/territory operate their own agenda. Soccer in this country needs to be on the same page. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think one of the questions that needs to be asked is if the provincial SAs actually do provide a useful framework for organizing league and cup competitions. Some do, others not so much. Thunder Bay clubs are clearly not going to be able to participate regularly in Ontario leagues, for example.

If the provincial association winds up effectively only catering to people in easy driving distance of the largest city, why not just eliminate that tier completely and have a series of more rationally delineated district SAs affiliating directly to the CSA so there are only two tiers of soccer bureacracy above club level? 

[dyslexic nam]

I am not sure how any of that solved the issues we are seeing.  Lack of friendlies, no national youth team opportunities, minimal camps, compensation that is deemed inadequate by the players - how is any of that solved by removing provincial-level associations.  

The reality is that provinces have varied profiles, with the provincial associations playing different roles in different jurisdictions.  For smaller provinces that does in fact involve full provincial coordination of teams and tournaments.  For bigger provinces it may be more about coordination of provincial teams etc.   I am just not sure how eliminating that layer solves the issues we see.  
 

 

[Shway]

33 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not sure how any of that solved the issues we are seeing.  Lack of friendlies, no national youth team opportunities, minimal camps, compensation that is deemed inadequate by the players - how is any of that solved by removing provincial-level associations.  

The reality is that provinces have varied profiles, with the provincial associations playing different roles in different jurisdictions.  For smaller provinces that does in fact involve full provincial coordination of teams and tournaments.  For bigger provinces it may be more about coordination of provincial teams etc.   I am just not sure how eliminating that layer solves the issues we see.  
 

 

Does provincial teams serve a purpose anymore? With most players in academies, and not allowed to play in both ...I'm not sure it plays the same importance it did when I used to play.

 Same thing with provincial Cups... League 1 has effected the overall quality/and purpose.

[dyslexic nam]

57 minutes ago, Shway said:

Does provincial teams serve a purpose anymore? With most players in academies, and not allowed to play in both ...I'm not sure it plays the same importance it did when I used to play.

 Same thing with provincial Cups... League 1 has effected the overall quality/and purpose.

Maybe.  Definitely not an expert.  And it’s not like PEI is representative of the national situation. But I do know that in at least some provinces the provincial associations still do a lot.   

[Ottawafan]

5 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am not sure how any of that solved the issues we are seeing.  Lack of friendlies, no national youth team opportunities, minimal camps, compensation that is deemed inadequate by the players - how is any of that solved by removing provincial-level associations.  

The reality is that provinces have varied profiles, with the provincial associations playing different roles in different jurisdictions.  For smaller provinces that does in fact involve full provincial coordination of teams and tournaments.  For bigger provinces it may be more about coordination of provincial teams etc.   I am just not sure how eliminating that layer solves the issues we see.  
 

 

Provincial entities can still operate under the umbrella of the CSA if it was a federation.  But they wouldn't be able to make decisions solely based on their best interests which can run counter to other governing bodies.  Everyone in soccer should be on the same page.  Of course that also comes with the national body being filled with staff who are competent. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

The provincial associations being a further step of bureacracy removed from the clubs at the grassroots and effectively holding a stranglehold on the CSA's internal voting structure is a big part of why Canadian soccer is so dysfunctional in its governance. Only people who you would definitely not want involved because they would be pretty much unemployable in most professional settings have both the motivation and time on their hands to work their way up to that level.

[Ottawafan]

5 hours ago, Shway said:

Does provincial teams serve a purpose anymore? With most players in academies, and not allowed to play in both ...I'm not sure it plays the same importance it did when I used to play.

 Same thing with provincial Cups... League 1 has effected the overall quality/and purpose.

I think so.  Allows top kids to train with other top kids and gives the CSA and pro clubs an opportunity to see and scout players in one location.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

10 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

...Allows top kids to train with other top kids...

If one of the top kids is living somewhere like Windsor, Ottawa or Sudbury how easy is to be involved with a provincial programme operating out of the Ontario Soccer Centre in Vaughan? Been out the loop for a long time but used to hear bad things about that issue in a London context. Think both TFC and the Whitecaps having an involvement with L1O youth teams in a London context now and being able to move any top prospects they identify to a residential academy setup is a step forward from having a system focused on a centrally run provincial team that only plays sporadically.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

No more excuses 

 

[Ottawafan]

20 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

If one of the top kids is living somewhere like Windsor, Ottawa or Sudbury how easy is to be involved with a provincial programme operating out of the Ontario Soccer Centre in Vaughan? Been out the loop for a long time but used to hear bad things about that issue in a London context. Think both TFC and the Whitecaps having an involvement with L1O youth teams in a London context now and being able to move any top prospects they identify to a residential academy setup is a step forward from having a system focused on a centrally run provincial team that only plays sporadically.

Very minimal training with the province.  Not like it used to be, when kids trained pretty much every weekend.  One of my closest buddies growing up did provincial for 2 years and then 3/4 years national youth team.  On a bus after school every Friday and train all weekend ( winter at Ivor Wynne in Hamilton sometimes!! ) and then back to Ottawa.  For years!

Different now as the OPDL gives the provincial coaches the chance to view kids at the highest level from across Ontario.  In theory. 

[Kent]

On 7/31/2023 at 7:16 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Then the CSL was parachuted in from on high with a swivel-eyed Dale Barnes banging on relentlessly about not wanting ethnic clubs, so the North York Rockets entered with a few dozen fans while Toronto Croatia who had no problem drawing into low four digits were excluded along with Toronto Italia who had massive backing in sponsorship terms from the GTA's Italian community because some small minded people couldn't handle their names...

I was a kid when the CSL existed/failed, so I wasn't following how it died. Was it about people not being able to handle names? Or was it an attempt to get everyone to pull in the same direction so that maybe a single team could draw from a big enough fanbase to survive? I don't know the answer, but it seems if there are 1 or 2 thousand loyal fans of the Croatian club, and 1 or 2 thousand fans of the Italian club, it might make sense to try to get them to all support a single club, so avoid ethnic names to keep from excluding one group or the other (not to mention people outside both groups). Especially since the CSL wasn't a CHL style bus league, so it would need more than 1 or 2 thousand fans.

[spitfire]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:51 PM, Ottawafan said:

Very minimal training with the province.  Not like it used to be, when kids trained pretty much every weekend.  One of my closest buddies growing up did provincial for 2 years and then 3/4 years national youth team.  On a bus after school every Friday and train all weekend ( winter at Ivor Wynne in Hamilton sometimes!! ) and then back to Ottawa.  For years!

Different now as the OPDL gives the provincial coaches the chance to view kids at the highest level from across Ontario.  In theory. 

I lived in Markham growing up and did the 3-3 1/2 trek by transit (bus to finch station train to union train to Burlington bus to Hamilton walk to the stadium) on my own to Ivor wynne stadium in Hamilton for winter training with the provincial team and the. national teams(up to u23s)( a 2 hr sessions) to  then Begged for a ride back into Toronto from one of the other dads to go back home every Saturday Sunday… summer training was at Sheridan college in Oakville.. which wasn’t much better.
We had kids on my teams brought in from around the province(like Ottawa) who stayed with other kids over the weekend..

oh those were the days…

I remember my parents billeting a few kids from Quebec during the Robbie tournament …

yes we need to do better with talent ID across the country but very difficult sometimes with the geography…not saying odpl is better I’m a bit removed these days …

when Liam was with the provincials we lived in Brampton thank god…
 

[Ottawafan]

Provincial coaches felt their training was superior to club level coaches. In some cases it may well have been. But they felt they were in the development business, which is the role of the clubs. The new provincial league is supposed to give their coaches the opportunity to view players but the reality is what’s the point?  Clubs have good coaching and don’t need the provincial ones getting involved. And with the emergence of MLS academies and one day CPL academies/affiliations clubs will remain the only viable development model. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

11 hours ago, Kent said:

...Especially since the CSL wasn't a CHL style bus league, so it would need more than 1 or 2 thousand fans.

Perhaps worth bearing in mind that Toronto Croatia were NASL champions only 11 years before the CSL launched with Eusebio on their roster at that point.

More of a washed up hasbeen than Messi is now but close to being as world famous at the time.

[DoyleG]

 

https://www.dw.com/en/world-cup-fallout-where-did-germany-go-wrong/a-66446712

 

Quote

Germany expected an easy ride. They may not have let on as much, largely keeping to the media-trained script of one game at a time, but they had declared clear ambitions to win this tournament.

Germany's talent, funding and history entitled them to such ambitions, yet it also left them with an air of entitlement.

They reportedly hadn't even initially drawn up travel plans for finishing second in their group and had pushed for FIFA to secure their base camp near Sydney for the entire tournament. Only after the loss to Colombia did they draw up a contingency plan, when a potential quarterfinal in Brisbane (instead of Sydney) became likely.

German FA president Bernd Neuendorf hadn't even bothered to come watch the group stage; he was due to arrive in Australia just before the round of 16 started.

Those plans already suggest a certain haughtiness from the DFB and it also appeared to spread throughout the entire camp.

Geez.

Where have I heard this before.....

Edited August 7, 2023 by DoyleG

[Kent]

On 8/6/2023 at 9:41 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Perhaps worth bearing in mind that Toronto Croatia were NASL champions only 11 years before the CSL launched with Eusebio on their roster at that point.

More of a washed up hasbeen than Messi is now but close to being as world famous at the time.

I'm looking up their average attendance by year on this page...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blizzard_(1971–1984)

Looks like "Toronto Metros" was not particularly popular, averaging about 6k, 7k, 6k, and 3k in those 4 years. Then "Toronto Metros-Croatia" was basically the same with average attendances of 6k, 6k, 7k, and 6k. Then it looks like the team moved from Varsity to Exhibition stadium and changed back to a more neutral name in "Toronto Blizzard" and started drawing bigger crowds. 12k, 15k, 7k, 8k, 12k, and 11k.

So again, I'm not sure it would have been about some small minded people not being able to handle ethnic names, but rather thinking there was a better marketing opportunity to make it more agnostic. But in hindsight, I guess North York Rockets didn't work alongside Toronto Blizzard and maybe the league would have done better with Toronto Croatia or Toronto Italia in the league instead, but we'll never know for sure (unless someone has attendance figures for those teams during the CSL era that prove without doubt they were drawing better than North York, despite the lower level of league).

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

...and on and on. Some of us were going to games back then and were regularly watching Toronto Italia broadcasts on Rogers Cable with Ben Knight as the announcer as well as CSL games on TSN with Vic Rauter and Graham Leggat. Don't feel a need to prove anything to you.

When Italia, Croatia and another existing NSL club called Panhellenic were rejected for CSL membership complete with lots of rhetoric from people like Dale Barnes about not wanting ethnic team names, they might as well have aired commercials on CHIN TV with the slogan, **** off we don't want you!, aimed at the three recent immigrant demographics that were most strongly backing "local football teams" at the time in the GTA. Safe to say Dale Barnes & Co would have failed Marketing 101, but hey it's Canadian soccer so everything needs to be packaged to appeal to the demographics that are least likely to show up even if it means alienating your core base.

At some point guys like you need to ponder why so few people are showing up for York United games despite the huge population that is an easy drive or subway ride from York Lions Stadium. You are not the mainstream on this and there are reasons that led to sizable portions of the GTA's soccer community having the mentality that they wouldn't watch any league promoted by the CSA even if the games were being played outside their front window.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[narduch]

People actually pining for teams with ethnic names is a weird take in 2023.

Ironically the same guy that often rails on against nationalism too.

Edited August 8, 2023 by narduch

[Ottawafan]

11 minutes ago, narduch said:

People actually pining for teams with ethnic names is a weird take in 2023.

Ironically the same guy that often rails on against nationalism too.

He's explaining the history of the game in GTA and how the powers that be have continually stifled the development of the game that doesn't benefit their own small piece of the pie.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

... and you only need to look at the reasons behind why L1O isn't set up using promotion/relegation all the way up from district level amateur as the guiding principle to realize that it's still going on in the present day.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ansem]

A must read article which is bang on and bring perspective 

How rabid capitalism helped sink USA’s Women’s World Cup campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/11/us-soccer-pay-to-play-expenses-world-cup

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

9 hours ago, Ansem said:

A must read article which is bang on and bring perspective 

How rabid capitalism helped sink USA’s Women’s World Cup campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/11/us-soccer-pay-to-play-expenses-world-cup

Really strange the Guardian, of all papers, would write such a piece.  

[TOcanadafan]

10 hours ago, Ansem said:

A must read article which is bang on and bring perspective 

How rabid capitalism helped sink USA’s Women’s World Cup campaign

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/aug/11/us-soccer-pay-to-play-expenses-world-cup

No doubt the pay-to-play system combined with the greed of certain individuals at all levels diminishes the potential and resulting product, but this article is hugely reactionary off the back of one poor tournament performance.  But to blame the entire system on one poor performance is ridiculous - a click bait article for sure.

[Ottawafan]

The blame for development falls on clubs be they locally, in the NCAA and/or professionally.  Also have to factor in countries are now putting more focus and resources into the women's side of the game.