The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[dyslexic nam]

2 hours ago, Ruud said:

Or does a poor result reinforce the need for the league in Canada?

It may, but I think the elevated profile of an extended WC run on our biggest sports network is far more advantageous.  

[Ansem]

8 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Love how Wheeler keeps looking down at his CSA pre approved talking points.

How about you run it. Share with us your ideas - what would you do?

[Canucklehead69]

On 7/29/2023 at 12:42 AM, Bison44 said:

Ugh, so the women say they dont want to talk about it and want to focus on WC.  The mens statement forces them to clarify their position the day before the HUGGEE game against the aussies.  Were the men trying to be dicks on purpose???  This sure feels like all these groups are really at cross purposes and only care about themselves.  

Depending on the definition of equal pay in their agreement (especially regarding the possible FIFA prize money) the women's team may have negotiated with revenue that wasn't theirs to give away. Might be the reason why the mens team is doing this. 

It's like the mens team saying yeah we'll split the own the podium money.

There's a way to do equal pay well but if it's splitting the FIFA prize money into a pool like the US team did especially without agreement of the men's squad the CSA just signed an illigal deal

It's literally just classic union busting if so

Edited July 30, 2023 by Canucklehead69

[Ottawafan]

8 hours ago, Ansem said:

How about you run it. Share with us your ideas - what would you do?

The interview?  Well if I was asking the questions I wouldn’t lead with my thoughts and attempt to shape the direction of the discussion. I would have asked Oli why if everyone loses why didn’t he bring up the CSA and what role they play in that. He seemed to leave that out.  I would have pushed back in Wheeler and his pro CSA talking points. He knows what he knows from the CSA but doesn’t have a grasp of what the players want and comes out against them. I get his network is an arm of the CSA but come on. He doesn’t get the animosity?  Really?  Twenty years plus of the CSA treating the players poorly?  You don’t understand?

That is where I would have started. 

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

The interview?  Well if I was asking the questions I wouldn’t lead with my thoughts and attempt to shape the direction of the discussion. I would have asked Oli why if everyone loses why didn’t he bring up the CSA and what role they play in that. He seemed to leave that out.  I would have pushed back in Wheeler and his pro CSA talking points. He knows what he knows from the CSA but doesn’t have a grasp of what the players want and comes out against them. I get his network is an arm of the CSA but come on. He doesn’t get the animosity?  Really?  Twenty years plus of the CSA treating the players poorly?  You don’t understand?

That is where I would have started. 

We had the hearings in Ottawa grilling the CSA from all angles. We know they're flawed - that doesn't change their fiscal reality.

How would you keep all the programs running AND give the players everything they are asking for within their current fiscal reality?

[Aird25]

3 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

The interview?  Well if I was asking the questions I wouldn’t lead with my thoughts and attempt to shape the direction of the discussion. I would have asked Oli why if everyone loses why didn’t he bring up the CSA and what role they play in that. He seemed to leave that out.  I would have pushed back in Wheeler and his pro CSA talking points. He knows what he knows from the CSA but doesn’t have a grasp of what the players want and comes out against them. I get his network is an arm of the CSA but come on. He doesn’t get the animosity?  Really?  Twenty years plus of the CSA treating the players poorly?  You don’t understand?

That is where I would have started. 

Come on. Andi Petrillo is one of the best sports broadcasters in the country and regularly works for other networks like CBC, TSN, Rogers etc. Wheeler and Oli Platt have both covered the game for a long time prior to joining OneSoccer. They all regularly interview men’s and women’s national team players and cover those teams, as well as MLS players and teams

[Ottawafan]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

Come on. Andi Petrillo is one of the best sports broadcasters in the country and regularly works for other networks like CBC, TSN, Rogers etc. Wheeler and Oli Platt have both covered the game for a long time prior to joining OneSoccer. They all regularly interview men’s and women’s national team players and cover those teams, as well as MLS players and teams

And yet they always seem to come out on one side over the other. Odd.

Petrillo is very good at the job. Impartial and knowledgeable. 

[Ottawafan]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

We had the hearings in Ottawa grilling the CSA from all angles. We know they're flawed - that doesn't change their fiscal reality.

How would you keep all the programs running AND give the players everything they are asking for within their current fiscal reality?

I’d do a head to toe/inside and out audit of the game in Canada. Like what other top nations have done with Double Pass. 
 

I’d make it a federation not an association. Fuck the provinces with their own agendas to keep their fiefdoms. 
 

Most importantly I’d understand the greatest asset the CSA has under its control are the NT’s. It is the best way to generate revenue and visibility. Canada soccer has reached a new level and if we want to stay here ( men’s ) we need to act like it. Fucking around the players like they have and still do, is bush. Want to supplement the talent with duals, not going to do that with amateur hour decisions that screw over the players. 

[youllneverwalkalone]

Great, can't wait to pay that invoice to Deloitte to find out what we already all know.

There's only one thing you can do for the game in this country and people always forget:

 

But you do that and then some keyboard warrior calls you a CSA apologist.

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

2 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

...I’d make it a federation not an association. Fuck the provinces with their own agendas to keep their fiefdoms...

Do we even need provincial associations nowadays? Most of the grass roots stuff happens city by city and many/most "provincial" leagues are basically just teams from the largest cities in any particular province because regular travel from somewhere like London to Toronto never mind Ottawa to Toronto soon puts most potential participants off. The whole structure needs to be carefully reexamined.

[Ottawafan]

53 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Great, can't wait to pay that invoice to Deloitte to find out what we already all know.

There's only one thing you can do for the game in this country and people always forget:

 

But you do that and then some keyboard warrior calls you a CSA apologist.

 

Can always tell the fans who’ve never been a part of the game in Canada. 

We’ve never had audit like that done in Canada. Why?  Because the CSA would rather muck it’s way forward pretending it knows what it’s doing. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Ottawafan

[Ottawafan]

44 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Do we even need provincial associations nowadays? Most of the grass roots stuff happens city by city and many/most "provincial" leagues are basically just teams from the largest cities in any particular province because regular travel from somewhere like London to Toronto never mind Ottawa to Toronto soon puts most potential participants off. The whole structure needs to be carefully reexamined.

Absolutely. The shift away from OYSL to OPDL was all about control from a provincial standpoint. Control the money, control the clubs, control the players. Thereby validating its continued existence. 

[youllneverwalkalone]

21 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Can always tell the fans who’ve never been a part of the game in Canada. 

We’ve never had audit like that done in Canada. Why?  Because the CSA would rather muck it’s way forward pretending it knows what it’s doing. 

I can always tell "fans" who have not spent their dollars in the game in Canada.

Why has an "audit" never been done in Canada is because an audit is an expensive process that results in a binary opinion. We don't need Deloitte to confirm that the CSA has been mismanaged. It's obvious. Audits do not provide solutions.

Our only solution to the long-term health of the national teams is for "fans" to spend their dollars on the professional game in Canada. I've put in somewhere close to $100k in today's dollars into Whitecaps USL, Whitecaps MLS, Pacific, Vancouver FC, Canada, Canada Women, U20, not to mention all the adjacent money on sponsors. And I'd guess I'm in the lower quartile of spending from long-term posters here. That's all you can control. That's all you can do for the professional game. This is what benefits the majority of players who will rep our national teams. Bitching on a message board does nothing.

 

[Ottawafan]

17 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

I can always tell "fans" who have not spent their dollars in the game in Canada.

Why has an "audit" never been done in Canada is because an audit is an expensive process that results in a binary opinion. We don't need Deloitte to confirm that the CSA has been mismanaged. It's obvious. Audits do not provide solutions.

Our only solution to the long-term health of the national teams is for "fans" to spend their dollars on the professional game in Canada. I've put in somewhere close to $100k in today's dollars into Whitecaps USL, Whitecaps MLS, Pacific, Vancouver FC, Canada, Canada Women, U20, not to mention all the adjacent money on sponsors. And I'd guess I'm in the lower quartile of spending from long-term posters here. That's all you can control. That's all you can do for the professional game. This is what benefits the majority of players who will rep our national teams. Bitching on a message board does nothing.

 

You’re calling for a financial audit. That’s been done. Accomplished nothing. That’s not what’s needed here hence the Double Pass. Google it. 
Congrats on spending the money. I’m glad you see the need to make a contribution in the way you see fit. 

[Bison44]

Did we not have the Easton report and that rethink study??  Isnt that more in like what you are talking about Ottawa?? 

 

[youllneverwalkalone]

18 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

You’re calling for a financial audit. That’s been done. Accomplished nothing. That’s not what’s needed here hence the Double Pass. Google it. 
Congrats on spending the money. I’m glad you see the need to make a contribution in the way you see fit. 

Thank you. Here is the link for others:

https://www.doublepass.com/

I don't understand how this group will help given the men and women a fair pay deal while also providing sufficient funding for all youth initiatives. 

If we want to talk about talent identification or professionalizing the technical direction of the CSA, that is another discussion entirely (although I appreciate it is a one issue candidacy that many transient posters cannot get over in their time here)..

 

[Ottawafan]

24 minutes ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Thank you. Here is the link for others:

https://www.doublepass.com/

I don't understand how this group will help given the men and women a fair pay deal while also providing sufficient funding for all youth initiatives. 

If we want to talk about talent identification or professionalizing the technical direction of the CSA, that is another discussion entirely (although I appreciate it is a one issue candidacy that many transient posters cannot get over in their time here)..

 

They come in and do a complete audit of an entire soccer nation. From the CSA, to the provinces, to local clubs. Everything in between. Looks at how soccer is played, administered, developed, how money is spent at all levels, how coaches are trained, interaction with the various governing bodies etc. Takes about 2 years to complete. US soccer did it about 6 or 7 years ago. Germany and Belgium too. 

[Ottawafan]

2 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Thank you. Here is the link for others:

https://www.doublepass.com/

I don't understand how this group will help given the men and women a fair pay deal while also providing sufficient funding for all youth initiatives. 

If we want to talk about talent identification or professionalizing the technical direction of the CSA, that is another discussion entirely (although I appreciate it is a one issue candidacy that many transient posters cannot get over in their time here)..

 

As for talent identification that’s a whole different ballgame. And that was my area of contribution to the game. Coaches for 20 years some at the highest club level. Had guys who went on scholarship to NCAA, played provincial level ( no NT level ) and played MLS/CPL/USL.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

16 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Great, can't wait to pay that invoice to Deloitte to find out what we already all know.

There's only one thing you can do for the game in this country and people always forget:

 

But you do that and then some keyboard warrior calls you a CSA apologist.

 

This whole we're the real fans and you're not routine from some people on here gets really tiresome after a while. Some people on the fringes of things only seem to be able to tune into a "local football team" that's been around for about five minutes because it has been packaged and promoted in a generic cookie cutter sort of way for them and then are surprised/outraged when a significant chunk of the soccer community aren't falling over themselves to join them.

In reality, there has been plenty of soccer happening locally for decades in the larger Canadian cities so a lot of people simply don't need the latest CSA or provincial association masterplan to get their soccer fix and are quite happy being actively involved with and/or watching what they have always been actively involved with and/or watching thank you very much.

In a lower mainland BC context, for example, the VMSL and PCSL both got their start from past provincial soccer association masterplans to have a BC provincial league and are still very much around, the Whitecaps/86ers have been around since the 1970s, and the provincial cup that provides a BC entrant for the annual National Championships has been around a lot longer than that. Why did CanPL and L1BC have to be parachuted into the mix from on high for people in the lower mainland to have something local to support?  

Edited July 31, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

This whole we're the real fans and you're not routine from some people on here gets really tiresome after a while. Some people only seem to be able to tune into their "local football team" that's been around for about five minutes because it has been packaged and promoted a certain way for them and then are surprised/outraged when a significant chunk of the soccer community aren't falling over themselves to join them.

In reality, there has been plenty of soccer happening locally for decades in the larger Canadian cities so a lot of people simply don't need the latest CSA or provincial association masterplan to get their soccer fix and are quite happy being actively involved with and/or watching what they have always been actively involved with and/or watching thank you very much.

In a lower mainland BC context, for example, the VMSL and PCSL both got their start from past provincial soccer association masterplans to have a BC provincial league and are still very much around, the Whitecaps/86ers have been around since the 1970s, and the Provincial Cup that provides a BC entrant for the annual National Championships has been around a lot longer than that. Why did CanPL and L1BC have to be parachuted into the mix in the lower mainland for people to have something local to support?  

If someone is willing to spend their money to help grow the game, it’s needed. Very few on here have an understanding of the development side of the game and what is needed. And how broken the system is. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Nothing against new investment and fixing the broken system but Canadian soccer always seems to want to act like there is a completely clean slate rather than focusing on making what's already there work better.

You mentioned OYSL and OPDL at the youth level and what really motivated that shift. Another example going a lot further back would be that the semi-pro league that was around in the 70s in southern Ontario in the shape of the NSL was way ahead of what's being pushed now with L1O in terms of fan interest and people supporting their "local football team", and was doing not a bad job on elite player development as well.

Then the CSL was parachuted in from on high with a swivel-eyed Dale Barnes banging on relentlessly about not wanting ethnic clubs, so the North York Rockets entered with a few dozen fans while Toronto Croatia who had no problem drawing into low four digits were excluded along with Toronto Italia who had massive backing in sponsorship terms from the GTA's Italian community because some small minded people couldn't handle their names...

Edited July 31, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

I know it's a naive ask but given recent results, can't all sides not show some humility and prevent the program backsliding.

I mean the money is drying up almost completely if we are getting knocked out in group stages or even the early knockouts come 4/5 years from now.

[dyslexic nam]

8 minutes ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

I know it's a naive ask but given recent results, can't all sides not show some humility and prevent the program backsliding.

I mean the money is drying up almost completely if we are getting knocked out in group stages or even the early knockouts come 4/5 years from now.

 

Unfortunately, both player groups seem headed the other direction. 

Yeah the CSA has issues but man it is silly to give the senior players  a free pass on this one. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by dyslexic nam

[Ottawafan]

30 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Nothing against new investment and fixing the broken system but Canadian soccer always seems to want to act like there is a completely clean slate rather than focusing on making what's already there work better.

You mentioned OYSL and OPDL at the youth level and what really motivated that shift. Another example going a lot further back would be that the semi-pro league that was around in the 70s in southern Ontario in the shape of the NSL was way ahead of what's being pushed now with L1O in terms of fan interest and people supporting their "local football team", and was doing not a bad job on elite player development as well.

Then the CSL was parachuted in from on high with a swivel-eyed Dale Barnes banging on relentlessly about not wanting ethnic clubs, so the North York Rockets entered with a few dozen fans while Toronto Croatia who had no problem drawing into low four digits were excluded along with Toronto Italia who had massive backing in sponsorship terms from the GTA's Italian community because some small minded people couldn't handle their names...

Man that’s going back. Some great clubs there. Half those players were off the boat and they could play!  Too bad we lost those players out of the system and focused on Great Britain boot and run system that seemed to linger far too long. 

[Ruud]

On 7/30/2023 at 2:08 PM, Ottawafan said:

I’d do a head to toe/inside and out audit of the game in Canada. Like what other top nations have done with Double Pass. 
 

I’d make it a federation not an association. Fuck the provinces with their own agendas to keep their fiefdoms. 
 

Most importantly I’d understand the greatest asset the CSA has under its control are the NT’s. It is the best way to generate revenue and visibility. Canada soccer has reached a new level and if we want to stay here ( men’s ) we need to act like it. Fucking around the players like they have and still do, is bush. Want to supplement the talent with duals, not going to do that with amateur hour decisions that screw over the players. 

We really are too big a country not to have provinces play a critical role.  We do differ from other countries in this way