The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[narduch]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^a truly sickening sequence of posts.

I thought you had me on ignore?

Only thing sickening is your obsession with bringing down the CPL because it's not a bus league that didn't link with USSF leagues

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Let's make sure what is important about what was revealed on Thursday is still visible:

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Ciara McCormack views them as being linked and appears to have had an influence on what was asked in that last session:

 

I had always assumed it was a few Whitecaps execs that were guilty on that and was not aware that there was such a strong CSA angle to it. This speaks volumes about a corporate culture that would see no issue with taking CWNT revenues and diverting them to prop up a men's pro league as Andrea Neil had been highlighting earlier in the week.

https://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/2023/04/22/threatened-humiliated-blacklisted-inside-the-culture-of-fear-that-muzzled-and-penalized-women-who-exposed-abuse-at-canada-soccer.html

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

 

[Ottawafan]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

 

 

Wonder why the NT players have such a high level of distrust in anything to do with the CSA.

[Ivan]

Good for Ciara for wanting to keep the Biranda situation front and centre in the news.  We don't want anything like that ever coming close to happening again.  But what this has to do with the CSB deal is beyond me. 

[Ottawafan]

5 hours ago, Ivan said:

Good for Ciara for wanting to keep the Biranda situation front and centre in the news.  We don't want anything like that ever coming close to happening again.  But what this has to do with the CSB deal is beyond me. 

You don’t think those that covered this abuse up perhaps didn’t use their better judgment in any or all other decisions?

[Aird25]

Deleted

Edited May 2, 2023 by Aird25

[red card]

Crooks will be cleaning up for Reed this Thursday. A bad performance like Reed could hamper her election bid while a good one should solidify it. 

 

[red card]

Rollins picks Crooks for CSA president over Newman.

Newman isn't an outsider given he was governance chair during Birarda's tenure at Canada Soccer. Newman also ran for president in 2012, which was fought on a reform versus status quo basis. He wasn’t the reform candidate. The winner, Victor Montagliani, was.

According to people Rollins has spoken to, Newman is the preferred winner by Matheson and the women's team. How did Newman position himself as the outsider? He'd rip up the CSB deal.

How in hell is Crooks an insider? Even beyond the fact that she is a woman of colour who did not play the sport, her work history shows someone who has long been on the right side of issues. She was a popular athlete among her peers — an Olympic flag bearer, in fact — and has long fought for athlete’s interests within the IOC.

 

 

[red card]

Davidson report on election has a few more items of interest.

Crooks Committee appearance will be changed to May 11th due to the annual meeting running from Thursday to Sunday in St. John, NB.

There are 85 votes up for grabs among the members at the annual meeting, divided primarily by geography — with 10 each for Ontario and Quebec, eight each for Alberta and British Columbia, four each for Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan, three each for Manitoba and Nova Scotia, and two each for Newfoundland and Labrador, Prince Edward Island, Nunavut, Northwest Territories and Yukon.

The other 25 votes come from the players (two votes, one from each national team), Canada's leagues and professional clubs (21), referees (one) and coaches (one).

https://www.timescolonist.com/national-sports/interim-president-charmaine-crooks-faces-one-challenger-in-canada-soccer-election-6942700

[DoyleG]

12 hours ago, Ivan said:

Good for Ciara for wanting to keep the Biranda situation front and centre in the news.  We don't want anything like that ever coming close to happening again.  But what this has to do with the CSB deal is beyond me. 

Well, she's Irish....

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

7 hours ago, red card said:

...How did Newman position himself as the outsider? He'd rip up the CSB deal...

Which makes him the reform candidate as things stand at the moment. Only problem with that is whether that's legally even possible. All hinges on what the provincial associations think is best for them and that may be only tangentially related to the CSB deal due to what its implications are for player registration levies.

5 hours ago, DoyleG said:

Well, she's Irish....

...writes a poster called Doyle. The CSA presidential election reminds me of something my grandfather used to say about Republic of Ireland politics being of southern Unionist stock and having lived in Donegal for a bit as a young man, "It's a bit like choosing between electrocution and drowning but Fine Gael are better".

Having to have been on the CSA board to be eligible to run means that they could only find a retread like Newman to run against the people who didn't rock the boat in more recent times while things like the ongoing Birarda cover up and deeply flawed CSB deal were happening. The whole governance system of the CSA is deeply flawed and that makes meaningful reform very difficult to accomplish.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Ivan]

14 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

You don’t think those that covered this abuse up perhaps didn’t use their better judgment in any or all other decisions?

It's possible.  But what/where are all all these other decisions where better judgement wasn't used?  Why target the CSB deal?  I think we all know the answer to that question.

Anyway, sounds like the feds may do a financial audit on the CSA like with HC.  Maybe that will give us some answers.

[zeelaw]

20 hours ago, Ivan said:

Good for Ciara for wanting to keep the Biranda situation front and centre in the news.  We don't want anything like that ever coming close to happening again.  But what this has to do with the CSB deal is beyond me. 

Yeah, I'm confused why these are constantly conflated.

[Colonel Green]

34 minutes ago, zeelaw said:

Yeah, I'm confused why these are constantly conflated.

This has mushroomed into a venting of all the accumulated grievances against how the CSA has operated, which runs a wide gamut from alleged coverups of predatory behaviour (crimes) to more mundane haggling over business arrangements.

The only common denominator is how little credibility the current organization has with its key personnel.

[gator]

More from Westhead:

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/national-team-players-call-for-fundamental-change-ahead-of-canada-soccer-vote-1.1955594

[Aird25]

5 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Only problem with that is whether that's legally even possible

The only problem you see with ripping up the CSB deal is whether it’s legal?That’s a wild stance. So much would likely be jeopardized 

[Bigandy]

16 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

You don’t think those that covered this abuse up perhaps didn’t use their better judgment in any or all other decisions?

Possibly but what would that look like? 

We know that 2 guys at CSA covered up an ethical violation. Does that mean their financial decision making is as flawed as their ethical compass? Does it mean that all/many of their decisions were not in the best interest of the organization (in their opinion). 

As an outsider looking in, we can see the financials of the CSB deal and can tell that it is a reasonable deal at the time. 
Our unprecedented success makes it slightly unfavourable but you can make the claim that the CSB and CPL have contributed to our success. 

Would we have attracted duals without hosting a WC? It surely helps to have a WC. What about adding depth via guys who played or were loaned to CPL. What about guys having to up their game because they have more competition. Ex. Laryea has farsi pushing him for a spot. Zats, waterman, cornelius, hiebert, mcnaughton are all pushing each other for a spot. Perhaps the CMNT doesnt have the same success on the field without the CSB deal. 

What other controversial decisions were there? 

The nike deal - no ethical violations here. 
Budget cuts - No ethical violations here. Just a lack of money. Where the CSA makes cut is up for debate but that doesnt make it unethical. 
Equal pay - The proposed deal is 50/50 and is being held up by the teams, not CSA.
Signing of the CSB deal - They misplaced the minutes. However, the legal documentation has since been found and theres no evidence to suggest it was signed illegally. Perhaps the CSA didnt want to get into the drama of the signing so they lied about misplacing the document. However, until theres evidence to suggest foul play, its hard to criticize. 

These guys may be ethical scumbags on this topic but that doesnt mean they are bad businessmen who make unlimited mistakes. They clearly have some skills if they are involved at high levels with CSA and Fifa. 

At this point, this feels soooo emotionally driven and is a witch hunt.

 

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

The only problem you see with ripping up the CSB deal is whether it’s legal?That’s a wild stance. So much would likely be jeopardized 

I don't think Ozzie would care if the CPL died 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, gator said:

More from Westhead:

https://www.tsn.ca/soccer/national-team-players-call-for-fundamental-change-ahead-of-canada-soccer-vote-1.1955594

Interesting snippet:

...Canada’s leagues and pro teams have a collective 21 votes and that’s where this election will get interesting.

While Canada’s three Major League Soccer teams each have two votes, the Canadian Premier League (CPL) and its eight teams have 15 thanks to a recent bylaw change. That may be enough, as things now stand, to put the CPL in a position to swing the election.

Canada Soccer is also scheduled to decide during the annual meetings whether to sanction a new domestic women’s pro league started by former national team player Diana Matheson. A decision on that league, now known as Project 8, is scheduled to come before the presidential election, according to a copy of the weekend agenda obtained by TSN.

If Project 8 is approved, it’s unclear whether the votes awarded to the CPL and its teams would be split equally with the new women’s league, with each potentially ending up with 7.5 votes....

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Having to have been on the CSA board to be eligible to run means that they could only find a retread like Newman to run against the people who didn't rock the boat in more recent times while things like the ongoing Birarda cover up and deeply flawed CSB deal were happening. The whole governance system of the CSA is deeply flawed and that makes meaningful reform very difficult to accomplish.

Anyone who conflates in time the CSB deal and the Birarda coverup has no respect for the integrity of facts, timelines or clarity. They are two totally different questions whose development does not coincide at all, nor do they affect each other in any way relevant. The very fact that some people are trying to leverage the Birarda case to attack the CSB is laughable, is the most tendentious, irrational line of argument out there. 

There are far better reasons to tear up the entire American banking system and go to state control than to undo the CSB deal.

[Aird25]

15 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Interesting snippet:

...Canada’s leagues and pro teams have a collective 21 votes and that’s where this election will get interesting.

While Canada’s three Major League Soccer teams each have two votes, the Canadian Premier League (CPL) and its eight teams have 15 thanks to a recent bylaw change. That may be enough, as things now stand, to put the CPL in a position to swing the election.

Canada Soccer is also scheduled to decide during the annual meetings whether to sanction a new domestic women’s pro league started by former national team player Diana Matheson. A decision on that league, now known as Project 8, is scheduled to come before the presidential election, according to a copy of the weekend agenda obtained by TSN.

If Project 8 is approved, it’s unclear whether the votes awarded to the CPL and its teams would be split equally with the new women’s league, with each potentially ending up with 7.5 votes....

 

 

So men’s teams from an American League get 2 votes each, women’s teams from a league that doesn’t exist get 2.5 votes each, and men’s teams from a Canadian league get <1 vote each?

What a farce that would be. I refuse to give him my clicks anymore, is that what Westhead is saying or is it coming from someone else?

[Unnamed Trialist]

I think we should do a separate thread for the elections, I'll set it up, since the pay dispute is just one of many possible issues at stake in electing a CSA board.

I wanted to make a comparison with other world federations, mostly because the vote breakdown does not seem fair at all to me. It heavily favours the provinces, which is fine in a federated model, but minimizes the role of every other stakeholder. For the CSA elections, unless you can get regional voting blocks going, or even be favoured by rivalries inside of single province voting blocks (which I am not sure even happens, as I suppose in some cases all a province's delegates are induced to vote in one way), the provinces hold sway and that decides it. Meaning anyone wanting to be a national president has to have a provincial constituency they have worked on, that they have pressed hands with, and carry those votes forward. Crooks, notably, has never been a provincial SA board member and likely has a weak provincial groundwork; Newman I believe came out of the Saskatchewan association and moved into a VP role, over a few years. That is not a strong voting block, but sometimes not being from a majority province can make it easier for other minority provinces to vote for you.

Compare with Spain, I'm happy to see how other FAs do it. Voting is every 4 years, there are 140 delegates all of whom also sit and vote at the General Assemblies. It is broken down in much more balanced fashion: 

20-sitting president and the 19 regional FA presidents

49 clubs-20 professional, 11 from La Liga and 9 from 2nd division; and 29 lower league clubs. Clubs rotate their presence as members of the General Assembly.

32 players-13 playing for fully pro clubs, 19 for lower division clubs.

11 refs-4 from the top two tiers, 7 from the next two tiers.

16 coaches-active, whether with a team in the moment or not, six pro and 10 from lower divisions

12 futsal reps-Futsal having a pro league in Spain and being a FIFA sport, 5 clubs, 4 players a ref and two coaches.

The president in assembly can propose changes to the voting block and in fact the current president proposed the three clubs always in top flight get a permanent vote, and two be added for beach soccer, also being a FIFA variant.

It is clear that this voting breakdown is much more complex and is a far better reflection of a football landscape. What is missing is to ensure the presence of women's players, clubs, refs and coaches. As everyone is involved directly in the game, you could argue for more reps "at large", such as media, administrators, even agents. But that is all debateable. 

In Canada, as long as the provinces vote with one mind, or mostly, then they won't be interested in reforming the voting breakdown, perpetuating their power. Which is ostensibly the power exercised to force the Bontis resignation. In Canada the amateur, academy and lower league structure is represented overall through the provinces; a shift to give votes to L1 teams, for example, would be a way to maintain provincial blocks but diversify them.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Think Ciara McCormack's take is about right on how appetizing the choice of presidential candidates is:

There really needs to be a way to hit the reset button and start again. Not sure if the federal government going thermonuclear with a financial audit and possibly cutting off all funding as suggested by Andrea Neil until satisfactory changes are made would do the trick but if that's the way the Heritage Committee stuff is heading it's better than the usual kick in the teeth to at least give that a go. Will be interesting to see if there are any shenanigans on sanctioning Project 8 due to the voting implications involved. Will give Ottawa politicians plenty to investigate if there are.

[Ottawafan]

48 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Possibly but what would that look like? 

We know that 2 guys at CSA covered up an ethical violation. Does that mean their financial decision making is as flawed as their ethical compass? Does it mean that all/many of their decisions were not in the best interest of the organization (in their opinion). 

As an outsider looking in, we can see the financials of the CSB deal and can tell that it is a reasonable deal at the time. 
Our unprecedented success makes it slightly unfavourable but you can make the claim that the CSB and CPL have contributed to our success. 

Would we have attracted duals without hosting a WC? It surely helps to have a WC. What about adding depth via guys who played or were loaned to CPL. What about guys having to up their game because they have more competition. Ex. Laryea has farsi pushing him for a spot. Zats, waterman, cornelius, hiebert, mcnaughton are all pushing each other for a spot. Perhaps the CMNT doesnt have the same success on the field without the CSB deal. 

What other controversial decisions were there? 

The nike deal - no ethical violations here. 
Budget cuts - No ethical violations here. Just a lack of money. Where the CSA makes cut is up for debate but that doesnt make it unethical. 
Equal pay - The proposed deal is 50/50 and is being held up by the teams, not CSA.
Signing of the CSB deal - They misplaced the minutes. However, the legal documentation has since been found and theres no evidence to suggest it was signed illegally. Perhaps the CSA didnt want to get into the drama of the signing so they lied about misplacing the document. However, until theres evidence to suggest foul play, its hard to criticize. 

These guys may be ethical scumbags on this topic but that doesnt mean they are bad businessmen who make unlimited mistakes. They clearly have some skills if they are involved at high levels with CSA and Fifa. 

At this point, this feels soooo emotionally driven and is a witch hunt.

 

Never used the term controversial, so I can't speak to that.  Players distrust the CSA and as we learn more about those in power and making the decisions, it becomes apparent why the players on both NT keep speaking about their lack of faith.  We need to get the CSA and the mens/womens teams all pulling in the same direction, to be on the same page.