The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[CanSoccfan11]

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I've always been skeptical that CanPL was actually needed to secure a 10 game co-hosting with the United States and Mexico. That has always looked like an urban legend to me. With the solo hosting in 2026 that was initially being pushed by the CSA with a focus on CFL stadia from coast-to-coast there was probably going to be a need to show FIFA there was an ongoing soccer legacy involved but that had already been off the table for around a year by the time the CSB deal was signed in 2018.

By the sounds of things it's actually MLSE and whoever operates BC Place that will receive a lot of the massive boost in resources now. There is no obvious CanPL link to the 2026 hosting in facility terms now because FIFA ultimately selected two MLS stadia in a Canadian context and wasn't going to be interested in CFL stadia in smaller cities like Hamilton, Ottawa and Winnipeg once only 10 games were going to be involved.

Beyond that why not simply leave the CWNT revenues out of the CSB deal to avoid any questionable optics on gender equity? The reason as far as I can tell is that up until very recently it was actually the CWNT that was moving the needle a lot more on corporate and spectator interest because they were more successful on the field of play.

Well that would be a question for FIFA.  Do they consider MLS to be a Canadian domestic league or not.  If not then CPL was needed to secure it.

That is also a good point about bundling the women's marketing but they might also be ahead on that if the $3 million from the CSB is more then what the women's marketing was bringing in prior to it.  

[Ottawafan]

47 minutes ago, Ivan said:

LOL.  If it makes you feel better about the players comments, and it fits your narrative, you keep telling yourself that. 

It's not about feeling better.  It's just being able to see another angle based on experience.  But that's ok if you see things differently.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

I've always been skeptical that CanPL was actually needed to secure a 10 game co-hosting with the United States and Mexico. That has always looked like an urban legend to me. With the solo hosting in 2026 that was initially being pushed by the CSA with a focus on CFL stadia from coast-to-coast there was probably going to be a need to show FIFA there was an ongoing soccer legacy involved but that had already been off the table for around a year by the time the CSB deal was signed in 2018.

By the sounds of things it's actually MLSE and whoever operates BC Place that will receive a lot of the massive boost in resources now. There is no obvious CanPL link to the 2026 hosting in facility terms now because FIFA ultimately selected two MLS stadia in a Canadian context and wasn't going to be interested in CFL stadia in smaller cities like Hamilton, Ottawa and Winnipeg once only 10 games were going to be involved.

Beyond that why not simply leave the CWNT revenues out of the CSB deal to avoid any questionable optics on gender equity? The reason as far as I can tell is that up until very recently it was actually the CWNT that was moving the needle a lot more on corporate and spectator interest because they were more successful on the field of play.

It is in the candidacy documents, as a requirement to be addressed specifically and then appears in detail, responding to the requirement, in the bid document. Which you haven't read, I suppose because it's more than 6 pages long or doesn't have the word "Easton" on the cover.

So for you it's an "urban legend". 

It shouldn't be a surprise, MLS was also a way of leveraging the US World Cup. For someone always presenting MLS as the gold standard, the least you could do is recognise a long-standing criteria that it met for US '94: a host nation must have a league in place.

The requirements and their fulfillment are so legendary that FIFA, in evaluating the candidacy document, went as far as to rate venues and other factors based on various parameters stipulated in the requirement specs. So that specs and requirements are laid out, they are then evaluated by successive committees, and after the reports go out to voting FIFA nations to see. These voting nations can use these rankings, ratings and point systems. Or, regardless, do their own homework, comparing WC hosting requirements with their fulfillment in candidacy portfolios.

Without a league you don't have One Soccer, you don't have League One, you don't have the Mediapro deal, and you don't have any Canadian cities hosting WC games in 2026. 

Interestingly, the US and Mexico just did a joint bid for a future women's WC, and that candidacy emphasises the growing respective national leagues. While it was not a factor in the past, because women's leagues are in an early and somewhat fragile state, it is increasingly a criteria now for FIFA. Accordingly, there is an A-League Women that has been around since 2008 in Australia and New Zealand. And that was cited clearly and specifically for the Women's WC bid they won for this summer.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ivan]

58 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

It's not about feeling better.  It's just being able to see another angle based on experience.  But that's ok if you see things differently.

I honestly want to believe you @Ottawafan.  It is incomprehensible to me that the NT team players would refer to the CPL in that manner.  But when they put it in writing, and the two most outspoken players (Kaye and Johnston) reiterate it in press interviews, that is why I see things differently.  It is especially incomprehensible to me that both players came from similar or lower level leagues to get to where they are. 

[red card]

Star's Robert Cribb has an article today centred around Andrea Neil's 70 page co-authored report that she recently submitted to the parliamentary committee looking at Canada Soccer. She is expected to appear before them on Monday.

A Star investigation has interviewed six women who were involved with Canada Soccer as players, managers or directors and say they were muzzled with the threats of reprisals. 

The first issue brought up was the Birarda case with quotes from McCormack & Stephanie Rushton. Then it is noted that the report focuses on Montagliani & Montopoli. 

“It’s problematic that the federation has let so much power concentrate in two people,” the report reads. “Montagliani and Montopoli have dispensed with all the norms of governance, making them de facto kings.” Both provided written statements to the Star saying all efforts were made, no direct involvement with Birarda and no coverup by the CSA.

The actual new reveal was from Amelia Fouques, who was suspended from Canada Soccer's board in 2015 for breaching governance policies.

“I, as a board member, couldn’t even get the numbers,” she said in a recent interview. “(Other board members) said, ‘Amelia, why are you asking so many questions? Everybody else is OK with it.’”

She says that during a break in a heated board meeting, Wendy Bedingfield, approached her and threatened her physically.

In a mediation process, Bedingfield admitted to threatening to “choke” Fouques. She said she apologized afterward and felt the matter was settled.

In an interview this week, Bedingfield said Fouques “tested my patience. I got overly irritated and I said something … and it certainly wasn’t nice,” she said. The mediator concluded the incident was “surprising” but that “we’re all human and mistakes are made.” Fouques says: “(Montagliani) absolutely said not to call the police. I stand by that 100%.”

The end of Fouques’ role as a director at Canada Soccer was sealed when she decided to speak publicly about a 2015 FIFA scandal in which 14 senior officials and associates were indicted for alleged wire fraud, racketeering and money laundering. Montagliani in a letter said: “You have been warned about your previous conduct on social media and also statements in the media. I confirm that the Board informed you, at this time, that governance policies require that (Canada Soccer) speak with one voice through the president or general secretary and that you should cease all further actions as these actions were in violation of your position as director of (Canada Soccer).

Fouques says the organization threatened her by digging up a legal case that detailed a private property dispute she had during her divorce. 

https://www.thestar.com/sports/soccer/2023/04/22/threatened-humiliated-blacklisted-inside-the-culture-of-fear-that-muzzled-and-penalized-women-who-exposed-abuse-at-canada-soccer.html

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

^^^having been involved with Canadian soccer administration briefly (quickly decided I had better things to do with my life and should focus on my career instead) at a less exalted but still reasonably high level none of that surprises me.

[SF]

3 hours ago, Ivan said:

You're forgetting at least one key element here when you use the bolded terms to desrcibe the deal and that is the element of risk.  When the deal was made, sponsorship and TV revenues were essentially nil.  CSB took the risk and their hard work seems to have paid off to some extent.   

I agree - CSB carries no fault here, in my view. They made a good deal, took some risk and, best we can tell, have been rewarded for their work.

This is what I said, using different words, below the bolded piece.

[Ottawafan]

1 hour ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

^^^having been involved with Canadian soccer administration briefly (quickly decided I had better things to do with my life and should focus on my career instead) at a less exalted but still reasonably high level none of that surprises me.

But the players are greedy and self centred!

[Bigandy]

On 4/21/2023 at 4:00 PM, Ottawafan said:

Absolutely I agree 100% I don’t want the players involved in this. I want them focused on the field. But those who were running the show didn’t do their jobs properly. That’s why they had to put their foot down and step in. They’ve raised their game but the CSA wasn’t upping theirs. Hopefully the new leadership will. 

I think the CSA not doing their jobs properly is a matter of perspective. What did they do wrong?

- Signed a CSB deal that was financially sound move at the time. Even today its not horrible and no one could have predicted our success. 

-Offering a equal pay deal to the women that would see them the 2nd best womens team in the world even though we hardly have a budget for it?

-Made budget cuts for the she believes cup? Budget cuts are never nice but where can you find cost savings? I'd rather have small cuts to the men and women in friendly competitions than cut our youth teams or funding for competitive games.

The CSA is horribly run and always has been but the men going on strike and the womens recent complaints have not changed or improved the situation... its made it worse. What has improved because of the strikes? 

We know we lost credibility and prestige as a program (maybe koleosho doesnt go to italy if he plays in the cancelled friendly? We lost 3million dollars in revenue. 

We gained a bit of transparency... We now know the figures from the CSB deal and the figures dont look horrible. We know that CSA has been trying to find an equal pay deal with the women and have offered equal pay (equal treatment is debatable). The men don't like the equal pay deal  so its not CSA's fault. 

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by Bigandy

[spitfire]

...another thread already

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by spitfire
see above

[Aird25]

I don't get why these CPL owners are bowing out if they're making so much money from the national teams

[narduch]

Just now, Aird25 said:

I don't get why these CPL owners are bowing out if they're making so much money from the national teams

Ha.

Was going to post something similar 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

 

[Shway]

I kinda don’t want to hear anything about the Heritage committee until there  final conclusion. 
 

Feel like their involvement has just added to the mess. 

[Ottawafan]

23 minutes ago, Shway said:

I kinda don’t want to hear anything about the Heritage committee until there  final conclusion. 
 

Feel like their involvement has just added to the mess. 

I know you wouldn’t want people to share their experiences and the truth about what they went thru. Nobody wants to hear that!!

[gator]

 A transitional board announced:

https://canadasoccer.com/news/canada-soccer-announces-new-transition-leadership-team

[SF]

30 minutes ago, gator said:

 A transitional board announced:

https://canadasoccer.com/news/canada-soccer-announces-new-transition-leadership-team

That's a transitional management team - separate from the Board 

[Kadenge]

I assume  JDV steps down as assistant coach for the CMNT while he is interim CSA Secretary?

[SF]

Imagine he would have to step down as a coach.  Would be complicated if he didn’t.  

CSA AGM is in May and a new President will be appointed (or the interim will be confirmed). 
 

I am not hopeful there will be material change, but perhaps there might be a start of something. 

[Ivan]

19 hours ago, Shway said:

I kinda don’t want to hear anything about the Heritage committee until there  final conclusion. 
 

Feel like their involvement has just added to the mess. 

So did Andrea actually say anything different from the stuff the other 4 said?  I don't get the point of further hearings.  

[sstackho]

15 hours ago, Kadenge said:

I assume  JDV steps down as assistant coach for the CMNT while he is interim CSA Secretary?

https://www.timescolonist.com/national-sports/former-canada-captain-jason-devos-named-canada-soccers-interim-general-secretary-6905358

Quote

DeVos says he also will put his coaching job with the men's team on hold.

 

[Kadenge]

Given that the General Secretary's position is the most important role within the CSA, it's interesting that there has been very little comment about Jason's appointment. As a former player and captain of the CMNT and recent assistant coach, he certainly has the experience of what our National teams require to be successful and at the very least should be able to resolve the outstanding issues btw the players and CSA. 

[Bigandy]

I think this interim board is incredibly clever. 

The main issue is that the players feel the board doesnt care or understand what the teams need to be succesful. Who is someone who could fulfill that role. It has to be a former player and have CSA board experience.  - Jason De Vos is perfect!

2nd issue. The CSB deal- People are upset we don't handle our marketing in-house or get a bigger deal from CSB. Step in Paulo Senra who has some great experience. If his hiring (assuming his credentials check out) isn't exactly the type of person we need in a communications role, then I dont know who is. 

3rd issue - CSA needs to have some continuity to keep things running smoothly from an operatiosn stand point. Jason De vos may not be qualified for his role long term so having 3 other members with experience can help guide the operations and process of finding the right people to succeed Jason and Kelly. I would say it would be the most naive decision in the world to have a completely new interim board. You can make a case to have a clean slate with the new board but an interim board are usually not the most qualified people for the job (or else they wouldnt be interim). Therefore, you need some experience to help guide the transitional period from interim to permanent. 

Most/All the issues the public could have about the CSA board are being addressed (as much as they can be with interim appointments). Whether the new hires are the right people or not is yet to be determined, but what more could the general public want from the hires for an interim board. 

Without knowing too much about anyone other than JDV, is my assessment similar to the rest of you guys? 

[Ottawafan]

19 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Given that the General Secretary's position is the most important role within the CSA, it's interesting that there has been very little comment about Jason's appointment. As a former player and captain of the CMNT and recent assistant coach, he certainly has the experience of what our National teams require to be successful and at the very least should be able to resolve the outstanding issues btw the players and CSA. 

Guessing the players had some input and were consulted.  Not the ultimate deciding factor in his appointment but better to have a former player in a prominent role to help build a better relationship and rebuild bridges.  

[Ottawafan]

4 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think this interim board is incredibly clever. 

The main issue is that the players feel the board doesnt care or understand what the teams need to be succesful. Who is someone who could fulfill that role. It has to be a former player and have CSA board experience.  - Jason De Vos is perfect!

2nd issue. The CSB deal- People are upset we don't handle our marketing in-house or get a bigger deal from CSB. Step in Paulo Senra who has some great experience. If his hiring (assuming his credentials check out) isn't exactly the type of person we need in a communications role, then I dont know who is. 

3rd issue - CSA needs to have some continuity to keep things running smoothly from an operatiosn stand point. Jason De vos may not be qualified for his role long term so having 3 other members with experience can help guide the operations and process of finding the right people to succeed Jason and Kelly. I would say it would be the most naive decision in the world to have a completely new interim board. You can make a case to have a clean slate with the new board but an interim board are usually not the most qualified people for the job (or else they wouldnt be interim). Therefore, you need some experience to help guide the transitional period from interim to permanent. 

Most/All the issues the public could have about the CSA board are being addressed (as much as they can be with interim appointments). Whether the new hires are the right people or not is yet to be determined, but what more could the general public want from the hires for an interim board. 

Without knowing too much about anyone other than JDV, is my assessment similar to the rest of you guys? 

Good points.