The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Unnamed Trialist]

52 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

It's not really complicated economics. If there was no CSB deal, does any of this mess of the last 7 months happen?

What mess? I bet you can't even articulate it. Canada winning gold and qualifying for the World Cup, plus getting two host cities for 2026?

They pay the CSA 3-4 million a year and that's been the last 4-5 years. How can you argue that a fundamental change occurs with CSB and then not acknowledge the parallel change on the field has nothing to do with it?

Part of new revenue streams are in their hands, and only because we're successful these have risen in potential. Obviously the CSA needed to sign a better deal to ensure a % of increased benefits; and apparently CSB is willing to renegotiate in part, they've said so.

Anyways, the CSA has revenue streams apart from those in the CSB deal. Why don't they exploit them?

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, Shway said:

and since we love to compare ourselves to the USA….

they take less money from citizens who want to participate in the game.

 

maybe they have less people involved in the game then we do! 🤣

You're aware you ignored that the States collect fees for youth soccer in the US? 

Really guys.

[Stryker911]

34 minutes ago, Shway said:

You idiots who keep thinking that increase is to fund the CSB are going beyond reason of logic.

Look at those damn reports!

The fucking CSAs main revenue has always been the people who are involved in the game. The play for fun adults and kids, the referees and the coaches who all sign up to play crazy prices to play the game. Nowhere else in the world is any federation run like this.

I can’t apologize for ignorance.

The players are greedy, and have quickly forgot where they have come from! 

I never said the increase is to fund the CSB. What I said is CSA increases the fees because of the deal with CSB.

[Stryker911]

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

What mess? I bet you can't even articulate it. Canada winning gold and qualifying for the World Cup, plus getting two host cities for 2026?

They pay the CSA 3-4 million a year and that's been the last 4-5 years. How can you argue that a fundamental change occurs with CSB and then not acknowledge the parallel change on the field has nothing to do with it?

Part of new revenue streams are in their hands, and only because we're successful these have risen in potential. Obviously the CSA needed to sign a better deal to ensure a % of increased benefits; and apparently CSB is willing to renegotiate in part, they've said so.

Anyways, the CSA has revenue streams apart from those in the CSB deal. Why don't they exploit them?

The mess of cancelled friendlies and players striking.

Players also want a review of the deal Canada Soccer signed with Canadian Soccer Business in 2019. The 10-year agreement sees Canadian Soccer Business represent both the men’s and women’s national teams in all sponsorship and broadcast deals.

The players’ statement said the deal “completely compromised (Canada Soccer’s) ability to leverage the on-field success of our senior national teams.”

“We need the terms of this agreement to be disclosed and corrected,” it said. “We want to know who signed this deal that has handcuffed our association. Why have Canada Soccer given up autonomy of the greatest opportunity to grow our program in years?”

[narduch]

19 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You're aware you ignored that the States collect fees for youth soccer in the US? 

Really guys.

A better comparison may be Hockey Canada. 

I'm too lazy to look it up though 

[Ivan]

35 minutes ago, Stryker911 said:

I never said the increase is to fund the CSB. What I said is CSA increases the fees because of the deal with CSB.

Rubbish.  As UT stated, they get more money now with the CSB deal than they did previously.

[Shway]

40 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You're aware you ignored that the States collect fees for youth soccer in the US? 

Really guys.

What’s the  difference? Provinces collect fees for youth soccer in Canada!

 It all gets funnelled to the top.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

5 minutes ago, Ivan said:

Rubbish.  As UT stated, they get more money now with the CSB deal than they did previously.

Which means diddlysquat if expenses incurred have also increased markedly due to having more national team games and training camps with the increased success of the CMNT and a roster to reward financially for World Cup qualification, if the terms of the CSB deal drastically limit access to the revenues that would otherwise have flowed to the CSA in response to those things happening. Agreeing to a flat rate fee rather than a percentage of revenues is looking like a very bad way to structure that deal right now.

[Aird25]

I’m just spitballing but lost player fees from the pandemic, lost revenues from no games in Canada, lost revenues and fines from the 2 Vancouver friendly debacles, a poorly timed kit deal with Nike, increased legal fees due to the strikes, increased compensation for players. These things all add up and have nothing to do with CSB or our domestic league

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Stryker911 said:

I never said the increase is to fund the CSB. What I said is CSA increases the fees because of the deal with CSB.

Not correct. They increase fees most likely responding to inflation, time since last increase, internal admin cost increases. And also because they radically lost fees during COVID. Plus because they are unable to generate revenue in all the areas of CSA activity outside of the CSB deal, which are significant, eg game revenue. 

And then, perhaps, because they signed a naive deal with CSB impeding them from fully benefiting from the new revenue streams afforded by recent onfield success.

Btw, the player's statement you quoted was wrong because it says the deal "completely compromised" ability to leverage on field success. When any matches played in Canada provide revenue that CSB doesn't touch. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

23 minutes ago, Shway said:

What’s the  difference? Provinces collect fees for youth soccer in Canada!

 It all gets funnelled to the top.

Not right. You have to differentiate between what national fees are and what regional (the reference was to the US) fees are. 

You've never filed a tax return I gather.

[Ottawafan]

39 minutes ago, Ivan said:

Rubbish.  As UT stated, they get more money now with the CSB deal than they did previously.

They are also generating more revenues now than ever before.  And yet the resources for the players continue to get cut.  Shameful how the NT's have been treated.

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Aird25 said:

I’m just spitballing but lost player fees from the pandemic, lost revenues from no games in Canada, lost revenues and fines from the 2 Vancouver friendly debacles, a poorly timed kit deal with Nike, increased legal fees due to the strikes, increased compensation for players. These things all add up and have nothing to do with CSB or our domestic league

Would like to think  the CSA received compensation from the Feds like most other businesses did with CERB type payments during the pandemic lockdowns etc? and given that our PM put pressure on the CSA to cancel the game vs Iran, would hope  the govt grants etc were bumped for 2022/23 for the loss incurred. I'm sure they would not position it that way.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Kadenge

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

I’ve seen lots of negativity around the CSB deal but what about the Nike deal. Canada doesn’t get one cent out of that. 

[Kadenge]

Come to think about it, wouldn't the CSA have been entitled to Fed Cerb type payments for not being able to host home games during WCQ and re capacity restriction limits thereafter?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

14 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

Come to think about it, wouldn't the CSA have been entitled to Fed Cerb type payments for not being able to host home games during WCQ and re capacity restriction limits thereafter?

They no doubt did get some federal support and given no games or training camps were happening expenses would have dropped markedly at that time as well as income. Think this whole line of argument was basically a bit of a red herring.

The current crisis on finances was driven by what happened to expenses and revenues after the CMNT qualified for Qatar. If expenses shoot up in response to that having a flat fee rather than a percentage negotiated for sponsorship revenues is unlikely to be a good move if the increased income in that area is what is needed to be able to balance the books.

Victor Montagliani was so desperate to get his pet project in terms of CanPL launched back in 2018 that the CSB people appear to have persuaded him to sign on the dotted line on a deal with terms that were definitely not in the CSA's interests further down the road.

All fine and good in some ways if having CanPL around is providing some tangible benefit for the national team rosters but given that's quite clearly not the case especially where the CWNT is concerned this is entering complete fiasco sort of territory at this point.

[Bison44]

Isnt a lot of this mess (and I do believe its a mess) self inflicted.  Herdman wanted Iran, it blew up cost CSA tons of cash.  The players complaining about the WC payment split and whether their family gets a free trip, they strike....cots CSA tons of cash.  The constant drip drip drip of the players being pissed about this and that have just sucked all the positive vibes the nation had from the mens qualifying.  You see TSN run more and more negative stories about scandals with CDN soccer, when we are in reality prob better off now than at anytime in recent memory.  More CDN women playing pro ball, more men killing it in bigger leagues, more male CDN teams (CPL) in more diverse markets, a burgeoning regional pyramid for the men, unheard of success for both national team programs, Onessoccer creating more media content for CPL/MLS/National teams that the other companies combined and WC26 on the horizon. 

And we just seem to be shooting ourselves in the foot.  What exactly have the women been denied??  WC prep friendlies are being organized, anyone with any sense knew that always comes late.  They just participated in a tune up cup, for years they ahve had plenty of games/camps etc.   I dont get it, is this just sour grapes because for once in about the last 20 years the men are becoming the focus of CSA and maybe the funding too??  

[Shway]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Not right. You have to differentiate between what national fees are and what regional (the reference was to the US) fees are. 
 

okay so you’re saying in Canada, players, referees, coaches pay their fees to the provincial organizations and the CSA. While in the USA they just pay the state associations?

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You've never filed a tax return I gather.

No, never! I don’t pay taxes to the government. I’m a sovereign citizen who sells drugs for a living and only deals with cash.  Can’t you tell? 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Shway

[red card]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

Would like to think  the CSA received compensation from the Feds like most other businesses did with CERB type payments during the pandemic lockdowns etc? and given that our PM put pressure on the CSA to cancel the game vs Iran, would hope  the govt grants etc were bumped for 2022/23 for the loss incurred. I'm sure they would not position it that way.

CERB was for employees. Canada Soccer said they cut wages by 25% for at least some employees during 2020, so these employees may have eligible to apply for CERB.

CEWS was the covid relief program for orgs. Canada Soccer statements say they were granted $1.2 million in 2020 and $195k in 2021.

Iran cancellation type issues typically don't influence the government's sport funding model as they use a purpose-driven funding framework. 

Just noticed in the notes that Canada Soccer has a funding agreement with the CPL. They provide $350k to the CPL annually starting in 2019 and ending in 2027.

 

[El Hombre]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

And then, perhaps, because they signed a naive deal with CSB impeding them from fully benefiting from the new revenue streams afforded by recent onfield success. 

Not disagreeing with the above at all, just quoting because it is here that I find a huge issue with the narrative that this is all the CSB's fault.  People are arguing two points at the same time:

1) The CSA has so little business/financial savvy that they can be taken to the cleaners by the CSB deal with a flat return rate rather than a percentage of revenue return.

2) Without the CSB, the CSA would be savvy enough to still bring in all the corporate sponsorships and all that same money all by themselves.

The two do not compute.  

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Herdman wanted Iran, 

I don't believe this was the case.

[Bison44]

20 minutes ago, El Hombre said:

I don't believe this was the case.

Who did want them then, and who's advice were they listening to when they made the decision?  Herdman was in the bathroom when this was decided? Who is the meticulous 4D chess man that wanted a non concacaf tough test for the team?  Bontis came up with this, or Cochrane and they overruled Herdman??  He looked around and Iran checked the boxes and he thought it was ok. I dont think you can seperate him from this decision.         

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

okay so you’re saying in Canada, players, referees, coaches pay their fees to the provincial organizations and the CSA. While in the USA they just pay the state associations?

No, never! I don’t pay taxes to the government. I’m a sovereign citizen who sells drugs for a living and only deals with cash.  Can’t you tell?

The context is someone posting that the USSSF collects less total yearly player fees than the CSA, as an argument to "prove" the CSA charges far too much. Go back and look at the thread, it's even marked in yellow. 

When obviously the the fees are paid in other ways and collected differently in the US.

The point is that dumbass arguments abound. I suspect that if you'd filled in a return yourself you'd be aware of the concept in a federal system.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, El Hombre said:

I don't believe this was the case.

I suspect it was the CSA dragging it's butt as usual, coming late to Iran, and Herdman saying "sure".

No way he was responsible for finding them or should he be held accountable for the diplomatic subtleties. 

[El Hombre]

1 hour ago, Bison44 said:

Who did want them then, and who's advice were they listening to when they made the decision?  Herdman was in the bathroom when this was decided? Who is the meticulous 4D chess man that wanted a non concacaf tough test for the team?  Bontis came up with this, or Cochrane and they overruled Herdman??  He looked around and Iran checked the boxes and he thought it was ok. I dont think you can seperate him from this decision.         

I'm getting the impression that Herdman is a lot less involved in these decisions than some people believe.  I suspect that Iran was the cheapest "big" team that was available to come.  Dollars drove that decision which eventually blew up because of how much more it cost them.