The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[SF]

Way behind on the comments here, but I actually think this whole this is quite simple. The players - mens and womens - don't trust the federation. In fact, it's now well past mistrust - it's full resentment. The details and aren't even important any more.

Simplicity aside, these things are not easily repaired. I honestly can't see anything other than a wholesale CSA leadership change putting this in a place where a good working relationship can be rebuilt over time.

For the record...threatening to sue your "employees", regardless of the legal foundation, won't help in rebuilding that trust.

Honestly, this is a clusterf**k of epic proportions and is screaming for some very basic managerial competence. Just basic, that's all.

[narduch]

7 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

Best guess is that the lack of a legal entity for the men's players at the time meant that it would be difficult for the CSA to threaten to sue anyone unless they named every member of the team individually (or at least those who voted not to play if the rumours that some of the players like Davies were in favour of playing). Sinclair mentioned that the women's players' association would have been hit with the lawsuit.

The other issue is damages. If Canada pulled out of a friendly the only damages are loss in revenue from ticket holders & associated costs (Panama gets paid either way whether we had played or not). The CSA perhaps felt that, given the need for an agreement ahead of the World Cup on the bonus compensation that instead of trying to sue the players for $3 million in lost income it might be more productive to use that as a bargaining chip in negotiations (e.g. "well, we can't afford to give you everything you want because you dumb-asses cost us $3 million - if you hadn't been insane enough to refuse to play the friendly at the last minute, then maybe we could give you that extra 3% you are looking for". Whereas I can see the CSA getting sued themselves for Canada not fielding a team in the She Believes Cup (and then presumably naming the women's team & their association) as a third party in the lawsuit and telling the women that if they get sued for millions in damages by the tourney holders, the USSF & Concacaf or whoever the hell runs it, the CSA would seek to have the women's players association indemnify (aka reimburse) them for the costs that they would be on the hook for. Always assuming that the tournament rights folks didn't sue the Canadian women directly for an illegal strike on the eve of the tourney with the CSA unlikely to be able to call in replacement players at such notice to field a C team. That

Another possibility is that perhaps BC's labour laws differ from Ontario's in this regard and BC's might have applied since the men's strike was occurring in BC, but I have a feeling that is less likely than the other reasons.

This is all speculation on my part, because on the face of it, it seems inconsistent to allow one team to strike and not the other. The differing factors are the existence of a legal entity that could be sued (which existed for the women but not the men at the relevant time) and the high probability of the CSA being sued for the women pulling out of the She Doesn't Believe Cup, whereas the CSA would not get used by anyone because the men's team stiffed the Canadian fans in Vancouver, so that's where my best guesses are. I am also posting all of this without having been online yesterday so I don't even know if there have been further developments shedding any light on this.

Maybe I don't have all my facts correct. But I think the big difference is the women have an actual CBA. Whereas the men don't 

[Ruud]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

CSB pretty much copied what SUM did. The difference which is HUGE, is that USMNT/USWNT have been successful for decades and winning medals/trophies brings cash prizes going straight into the USSF coffers.

I'm not sure if its was SUM getting all the revenues for all NT home games ticket sales so I won't include that.

 

Our NT was never that successful in comparison and the CSB deal was anon issue until our CanMNT started becoming more successful a cycle too early (The whole WC jersey fiasco)

Qualifying to WC (which doesn’t seem like it will be a problem anymore) and winning trophies is critical to increase the revenues and be able to do it all, invest in programs AND pay the players what they deserve.

The WC prize money in this cycle isn't enough to do it all and the players started digging the closer they got to Qatar into a deal that was signed over 5 years ago and no one cared to bring it up until now.

The whole bashing CPL from ex/current MLS players is kind of rich knowing that their MLS clubs benefited from the same scheme. 

The solution? It will be ugly either way... you pay the players but cut into youth/developmental programs OR keep those investments and go on a multi-year yard and PR nightmare with the national teams. Winning trophies and cash helps of course

I do understand the players saying the CSA could do it all if it wasn't for the CSB contract but I seriously doubt the CSA could have raised those deals on its own, it didn't have the staff, expertise or resources to get the people to do that, it did what the USSF did. We have to acknowledge that NO ONE believed the CanMNT could have this level of succes a cycle earlier - a gamble the CSA lost as in retrospect, it wasn't a bad deal had the CanMNT missed Qatar and been as mediocre as past cycles.

Lastly, its pure delusion to believe that CSB will come to the table now and renegotiate without getting more in return. I argue it's more of a say, voice or control over decision making of CSA affairs as it has nothing else to bargain with. Soccer still being way more niche than people realizes, it's bad optics sure but not enough to shame CSB back at the table. A very tiny vocal minority in this country understands/cares about the current issue -CSB knows that and will do business as stipulated in the contract 

Keep in mind that MLS would be a very different league without SUM and it undeniably helped the USMNT a lot. CPL's goal is the same, it's good business to get there too.

Eventually, the CSA will be able to take care of its own marketing like the USSF who no longer outsource that to SUM. The CSA is a few cycles behind and will have to do with CSB until 2039ish and then I expect them to handle it on their own as well. By then, CPL/League 1 Canada should strong and established enough to do things on their own without needed the NTs marketing revenues.

Same model as SUM really 

What about CSB committing to women’s soccer ?  Was that ever part of their commitment?  In retrospect that was a blond spot by CSB and CSA.  

[El Hombre]

So I just waded through 15 pages and here are my two cents because no one asked:

1 - There's a common thought here that the CSB has no reason to come back to the bargaining table and that doesn't make sense to me (kudos to @Watchmen for mentioning it earlier).  The idea is that the CSB has come into a windfall of cash based on the performance of the men's team.  This is good for the CSB.  If they want to continue this cash flow, then it is in their best interests to work with the players.  Otherwise we're going to get a number of players calling in sick to work when it comes to international duty.  Why can't someone gather the numbers around what the men's team brought in in 2013 and 2014?  This is what you risk going back to.  What's better for your income, having a team competing in Copa America and the Gold Cup and playing home matches against the US and Mexico in Nations League or going back to playing tiny Caribbean countries and losing to Guatemala?  One will generate a lot more revenue for everyone which is why it is in everyone's best interest to be on the same page.  It really feels like the players' participation in international games is a given and when you have an organization that includes Rob Friend and Josh Simpson, it should be clear that this is a commodity that needs to be managed.

2 - Goddamnit, the men's statement was amateur.  They completely derailed the conversation and hurt themselves in the process.  They need to get someone professional putting their statements out.  I don't think the shot at the CPL was intentional just because I think that would be giving them too much credit.  I really think it was a naive letter put together by a bunch of guys whose job it is to kick a ball and not do PR.  They really need to get out of their own way and let professionals handle this.

3 - To all those saying that the CPL will never help the national team: that's incredibly short-sighted.  There's a chance that Yao plays some significant minutes for VWFC this year.  This means that in a year or two, he could be a regular CB in MLS.  He doesn't get there without CPL.  He would be the 2023 version of Karl Ouimette, a star prospect who needed game time to develop but couldn't find it.  Or what about the calls for Zator to come in March?  He's not playing in the Polish top flight without CPL.  Or Waterman for that matter.  We just went to a World Cup with a back line anchored by a 35 year old, so to say it is too late for those latter two is naive.

4 - Gotta give kudos out to the mental gymnastics done by a number of posters to squeeze their pet peeves into the narrative.  Truly impressive.

5 - No big fan of Bontis here (in fact his lack of real business acumen is showing) but I think a healthy dose of criticism should be levied at Earl Cochrane.  His first 8 months on the job have been really impressive.  And didn't they just hire a COO hours before the first letter from the women dropped?  Gotta wonder what that person is thinking right now.

[Shway]

9 minutes ago, Ruud said:

What about CSB committing to women’s soccer ?  Was that ever part of their commitment?  In retrospect that was a blond spot by CSB and CSA.  

It was never explicitly said that they NEVER wanted to start or support a women’s league.

It just wasn’t feasible to stretch resources with the leagues infancy. However the equal rights crowd saw the CPL launch and said well what about us!

Meanwhile there wasn’t a single Canadian franchise in what would be considered the women’s MLS….why?

And then the same people who will argue against Canada teams only playing in Canada, will make it make sense for the women. 

[RJB]

It will be interesting to see how many men skip the next call up.  For the women it is more complicated ahead of the world cup, and given that their club pay likely isn't as high as the men.  But the men have no reason to come honestly, and if they believe what they're saying then they will skip some calls. 

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, RJB said:

It will be interesting to see how many men skip the next call up.  For the women it is more complicated ahead of the world cup, and given that their club pay likely isn't as high as the men.  But the men have no reason to come honestly, and if they believe what they're saying then they will skip some calls. 

Yup. How many guys will pick up a 'slight knock'.

CSA will probably announce the roster on game day lol

[zeelaw]

Quick thoughts on this.

• Can't stand twitter users with no care to understand the complexity of the CSB deal and post blanket shit like #PayThePlayers
• I'm a big believer in unions, and I'm not a Bontis guy, but I'll never understand athletes thinking they know more about business than a guy from Ivey
• Shitting on the CanPL really sucks, and had me irate Friday night
• Court of Public Opinion wins out over actual courts (#USWNT case in point), so Bontis needs to resign no matter how unfair it is

Also, I'm more excited for York United's opener then CMNT at BMO in March

[grigorio]

29 minutes ago, RJB said:

It will be interesting to see how many men skip the next call up.  For the women it is more complicated ahead of the world cup, and given that their club pay likely isn't as high as the men.  But the men have no reason to come honestly, and if they believe what they're saying then they will skip some calls. 

If they want to play in Copa America 2024 then they come. Staying in the A group or whatever is I think essential to that qualification next year?

[Aird25]

9 minutes ago, zeelaw said:

Quick thoughts on this.

• Can't stand twitter users with no care to understand the complexity of the CSB deal and post blanket shit like #PayThePlayers
• I'm a big believer in unions, and I'm not a Bontis guy, but I'll never understand athletes thinking they know more about business than a guy from Ivey
• Shitting on the CanPL really sucks, and had me irate Friday night
• Court of Public Opinion wins out over actual courts (#USWNT case in point), so Bontis needs to resign no matter how unfair it is

Also, I'm more excited for York United's opener then CMNT at BMO in March

I actually upgraded my seats for Pacific this year after reading the men’s statement. Maybe they’re geniuses after all

[SoCalTransport]

12 minutes ago, zeelaw said:

Quick thoughts on this.

• Can't stand twitter users with no care to understand the complexity of the CSB deal and post blanket shit like #PayThePlayers
• I'm a big believer in unions, and I'm not a Bontis guy, but I'll never understand athletes thinking they know more about business than a guy from Ivey
• Shitting on the CanPL really sucks, and had me irate Friday night
• Court of Public Opinion wins out over actual courts (#USWNT case in point), so Bontis needs to resign no matter how unfair it is

Also, I'm more excited for York United's opener then CMNT at BMO in March

I agree with you that the players don't know all the complexities of some of these deals. That's why these organizations like the NHLPA have experienced executives running it 

You can't deny the CSA's business decisions have been questionable.

Even if the executives went to MIT, thinking it's a good idea to play Iran in a friendly, rattles the brain. They should have all resigned.

I think the players are privy to something that the general public doesn't know. Something just smells dirty here.

[Shway]

 

This is an interesting stance for a collective. 
Especially when the Players didn't support the fans out in Vancouver. 

The amount of people who lost their hard earned money on their travel plans. What did the players do for the fans who they let down?

I guess the Voyageurs really is ONLY supporters of the NT teams, and less all things Canadian Soccer.

I think our stance should only be to ask for TRANSPARENCY, any support for that is warranted....no sides taken until we have that first. 

Because I'm definitely not for higher priced tickets to supplement dividends. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Shway

[Ottawafan]

12 minutes ago, grigorio said:

If they want to play in Copa America 2024 then they come. Staying in the A group or whatever is I think essential to that qualification next year?

Who is it more essential to?  The players or the CSA?   Davies, David, Eustaquio, Johnstone, Tajon, Kamal, Larin and Kone could all skip the games.  These players are currently secure in their domestic squads and place on the NT ( for the most part ).  You can have Vittoria, JR and Borjan declare they are retiring from international duty.  If the players wanted to protest the lack of agreement since last fall and the way the womens team was threatened... what can the CSA do?  

You don't want it to come to this, but what choice do the players have when the CSA/CSB aren't being transparent or willing to secure an agreement with the players?

[Ottawafan]

5 minutes ago, Shway said:

 

This is an interesting stance for a collective. 
Especially when the Players didn't support the fans out in Vancouver. 

The amount of people who lost their hard earned money on their travel plans. What did the players do for the fans who they let down?

What should they do?

[zeelaw]

19 minutes ago, SoCalTransport said:

I agree with you that the players don't know all the complexities of some of these deals. That's why these organizations like the NHLPA have experienced executives running it 

You can't deny the CSA's business decisions have been questionable.

Even if the executives went to MIT, thinking it's a good idea to play Iran in a friendly, rattles the brain. They should have all resigned.

I think the players are privy to something that the general public doesn't know. Something just smells dirty here.

I don't disagree with any of this FWIW

[InglewoodJack]

21 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

Who is it more essential to?  The players or the CSA?   Davies, David, Eustaquio, Johnstone, Tajon, Kamal, Larin and Kone could all skip the games.  These players are currently secure in their domestic squads and place on the NT ( for the most part ).  You can have Vittoria, JR and Borjan declare they are retiring from international duty.  If the players wanted to protest the lack of agreement since last fall and the way the womens team was threatened... what can the CSA do?  

You don't want it to come to this, but what choice do the players have when the CSA/CSB aren't being transparent or willing to secure an agreement with the players?

This is an important point too. I think a lot of people look at the CSA/CSB as holding the power because they run the business and ostensibly represent “the country” these players are representing, but ultimately, how much of this matters for the guys you mention, especially if they don’t have a comfortable situation at their NT? None of the guys you mentioned, save maybe AJ and Larin are going to elevate their club game and thus their earnings by playing Copa America (or any non World Cup games for that matter), and even those two have ended up at clubs that bring them way more exposure than Canada could.  Ultimately, those guys are the most important part of the equation.

[Shway]

40 minutes ago, Ottawafan said:

What should they do?

 

46 minutes ago, Shway said:

I think our stance should only be to ask for TRANSPARENCY, any support for that is warranted....no sides taken until we have that first. 

 

[Ruud]

6 minutes ago, Shway said:

 

 

Yup. They (sadly) need to hire a PR firm and clarify their messages supporting soccer at all levels and their lack of funding to pay out all player’s obligations.  Only problem is that the CSB deal will always hurt their Comms message in providing their side of the story.  

[Alex]

I have a simple question, the women have been complaining about pay equity, are they getting less than the men? I’ll be honest over the past 2 decades I feel like the women have been getting more friendlies/ exposure compared to the men. 

[MtlMario]

The worst part of all this is that at the end of the day when everything is resolved EVERYONE involved will have looked bad.☹️

[Ottawafan]

14 minutes ago, Shway said:

 

 

Good luck with that.

[Ivan]

2 hours ago, Ruud said:

What about CSB committing to women’s soccer ?  Was that ever part of their commitment?  In retrospect that was a blond spot by CSB and CSA.  

Initially, the CSB hired Carm Moscato to look into and help start a women's pro league.  She left after (paraphrasing her words), "realising although the CSB wanted to start a women's pro league and had interest, they weren't really putting forth any actions or effort to start the league".     

[Califax]

2 hours ago, RJB said:

It will be interesting to see how many men skip the next call up.  For the women it is more complicated ahead of the world cup, and given that their club pay likely isn't as high as the men.  But the men have no reason to come honestly, and if they believe what they're saying then they will skip some calls. 

Seems like a surefire way to get kicked out of the brotherhood. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading over to bump the Scott Arfield thread. 

[SF]

2 hours ago, El Hombre said:

5 - No big fan of Bontis here (in fact his lack of real business acumen is showing) but I think a healthy dose of criticism should be levied at Earl Cochrane.  His first 8 months on the job have been really impressive.  And didn't they just hire a COO hours before the first letter from the women dropped?  Gotta wonder what that person is thinking right now.

Nailed it.

Hate to call for "heads" (I really mean that), but the record is amazingly bad (astonishing, really) and can't see a better path forward.

[gator]

2 hours ago, RJB said:

It will be interesting to see how many men skip the next call up.  For the women it is more complicated ahead of the world cup, and given that their club pay likely isn't as high as the men.  But the men have no reason to come honestly, and if they believe what they're saying then they will skip some calls. 

If they skip the chance to play in Copa America and an expanded Gold Cup I will skip the chance to pay my hard earned money to watch them when they decide to show up again!