The Importance of the Players vs CSA Pay Dispute

[Aird25]

[scooterlawrence5]

A.  No one should ever negotiate net of taxes.  It's impossible to calculate for 23 different players with 23 different marginal tax rates.

B.  This is where pay equity is going for Canada and all developed nations.  See USSF deal:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/18/sports/soccer/soccer-equal-pay-explained.html

 

 

[Admiral Murray]

8 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

But they also want 40% of next Women World Cup? And give WNT 40% for Qatar? What if one of the two doesn’t qualify?

No. The men do not want the women to get a percentage of Qatar.  They want the women to get an equal percentage of their own (WWC) money and none of the men's.  Hence the misleading "equitable" statement the men put out.

 

Historically the men's money is a LOT more.  

 

The CSA 's offer pays both teams the same.

[Admiral Murray]

dp

Edited June 6, 2022 by Admiral Murray
double post

[MauditYvon]

3 minutes ago, Admiral Murray said:

No. The men do not want the women to get a percentage of Qatar.  They want the women to get an equal percentage of their own (WWC) money and none of the men's.  Hence the misleading "equitable" statement the men put out.

 

Historically the men's money is a LOT more.  

 

The CSA 's offer pays both teams the same.

Ok so CSA could give 8 millions  and still have 2 millions net for them, since nothing of that 10 millions is going to WNT.

Edited June 6, 2022 by MauditYvon

[CanadianSoccerFan]

3 minutes ago, MauditYvon said:

Ok so CSA could give 8 millions  and still have 2 millions net for them, since nothing of that 10 millions is going to WNT.

Paying out 8 to the men and then not paying another 8 to women is not going to fly.  

[Colonel Green]

1 minute ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Paying out 8 to the men and then not paying another 8 to women is not going to fly.  

Obviously the women’s team wouldn’t like it, but if the men’s team and CSA made that deal (or any deal) there’s nothing they could actually do about it.

[ag futbol]

21 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Speaking as a financial professional, this is a nonsensical interpretation by people who clearly know nothing about how corporate taxes work. 

CSA gets WC bonus = revenue 

CSA pays players = expense 

revenue - expenses = taxable income 

So anything passed to the payers is not being taxed. The the idea that the CSA need the players to “cover the tax” on their portion is nonsense.

Edited June 6, 2022 by ag futbol

[Blondo]

14 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

1.  Players wanted 40% net of taxes.  Which is 80% gross.

2.  CSA is required to pay the WNT the same as the MNT according to pay equity legislation which means add another 80% for the WNT.

3.  This means 80% + 80% = 160% of the prize money.  This is untenable as previously reported. Essentially, it would mean that as the MNT and WNT keep winning in their respective World Cups and earn their prize money, the association would get smaller and smaller having to fund the 60% deficit with eventually no funds left over for any other program (U20s, U17s, etc).

4.  The WNT statement proves that the CSA association is negotiating in good faith because it guaranteed the women pay equity.

5.  The CSB deal flows money in one direction: from the CSB to the CSA in the form of a guaranteed payment in return for sponsorship rights.  There is no payment whatsoever to the CSB from the World Cup prize money or any other competition for that matter.

CSA offer:  30 MNT 30 WNT 40 CSA

MNT offer: 80 MNT (they didn't consider the requirement to pay the WNT)

FIFA average:  20-25%

 

This is how it looked to me as well.

What your players demand is simply an extortionate cut. For example Belgium, Germany, etc. players receive way less of the prize money. In Qatar what Belgium players will take home for the group stage will drop to roughly 10% (down from 12.5% in Russia; in Qatar it will be about 1M for the players and 9M for the FA). Even being crowned World Champions would only bump them up to roughly 20% (about 10M for the players and 40M for the FA). Then again that would come down to 445,000 for each player while it was 50,000 for an Olympic gold medalist.

Possibly your players aren't happy about having to pay taxes and/or what they're getting paid for their portrait rights. Then again they didn't mention this.

[mpg_29]

I suspect that's why this deal is hard to come to an agreement. If the CSA is trying to do equal pay ...and the MNT have a different definition of that...well then of course the numbers aren't going to work...

[MauditYvon]

So CSA made 10 millions for WC qualification, 3 millions for sponsorships rights from CSB, and tickets sale + merch?
Asking for 8 millions is a bit rude. 

[scooterlawrence5]

Player ABC plays club soccer for Toronto FC (owned by MLSE a private enterprise).

Player ABC also plays for Canada's MNT (CSA is a registered not for profit).

Player ABC esrns $1m at TFC.  He will pocket $500k after taxes.

Player ABC earns $1m for national team.  He will pocket $500k after taxes.

SO, the tax status of the parent organization (TFC or CSA) doesn't matter.  Player ABC will always pay  taxes on his income earned.

 

[CanadaFan123]

The Women’s team should not be getting the prize money for the men, period. It is such a ridiculous and entitled notion that has led us to this point. It’s impossible to make logic of without devolving into a straw man argument. 
 

Ultimately there’s nothing “equitable” about having to share your bonus with someone completely unconnected to the work you did. 

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, scooterlawrence5 said:

Player ABC plays club soccer for Toronto FC (owned by MLSE a private enterprise).

Player ABC also plays for Canada's MNT (CSA is a registered not for profit).

Player ABC esrns $1m at TFC.  He will pocket $500k after taxes.

Player ABC earns $1m for national team.  He will pocket $500k after taxes.

SO, the tax status of the parent organization (TFC or CSA) doesn't matter.  Player ABC will always pay  taxes on his income earned.

 

Player ABC sounds like OSO.

[Mattd97]

While negotiating that the club make up the tax difference is weird to us, my understanding is that its quite common in European pro sports.  Most of their contracts, so Im told, are reported as after tax sums.  This would actually be a great way of doing stuff here to make up for the inherent imbalance of playing for the Heat versus the Raptors for example.  

[MauditYvon]

Seems to be 2.5 million + 10 millions.

https://sportscriber.com/football/fifa-world-cup-prize-money/

32 qualified teams will receive a preparation fee of $2.5 million each. Teams eliminated from the group stage will receive $10 million each.

[Bison44]

10 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Speaking as a financial professional, this is a nonsensical interpretation by people who clearly know nothing about how corporate taxes work. 

CSA gets WC bonus = revenue 

CSA pays players = expense 

revenue - expenses = taxable income 

So anything passed to the payers is not being taxed. The the idea that the CSA need the players to “cover the tax” on their portion is nonsense.

The players will have to pay taxes on the money from the CSA/WC cashola... thats 100% taxable income for them right??  The way the players word it, kind of sounds like they want 4mil after taxes, which would mean they really want roughly 8mil from CSA so they "net" roughly 4 million their pockets. But none of it is very clear....its easy to see why they cant cut a deal.  Its almost like they arent speaking the same language.  

[kohanz]

17 minutes ago, ag futbol said:

Speaking as a financial professional, this is a nonsensical interpretation by people who clearly know nothing about how corporate taxes work. 

CSA gets WC bonus = revenue 

CSA pays players = expense 

revenue - expenses = taxable income 

So anything passed to the payers is not being taxed. The the idea that the CSA need the players to “cover the tax” on their portion is nonsense.

The CSA is a not-for-profit.

I think the idea here is that in European football (and other sports too), is common for players contracts to be specified in pay "net" of the tax (e.g. the team pays the tax on behalf of the player). So if your wages are listed as X, you receive X with no taxes owing, while your team covers your income tax for you. In other words, wages/contracts are discussed in post-tax numbers. I think that's what the players are asking for.  That their portion be paid to them and then the CSA also covers their income tax (related specifically to the WC bonus) on top of that.

 

What the actual absolute or percentage numbers on that are, I think is getting widely speculated and confused here.

Edited June 6, 2022 by kohanz

[canuckgbp]

 

[Floortom]

Just now, canuckgbp said:

 

Bad optics - why would he go home before the deal is signed? 

[Bison44]

Probably he went home because he isnt helping.  

[kohanz]

2 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Bad optics - why would he go home before the deal is signed? 

C'mon, it's a done deal - like the Iran friendly!

[ag futbol]

39 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

The players will have to pay taxes on the money from the CSA/WC cashola... thats 100% taxable income for them right??  The way the players word it, kind of sounds like they want 4mil after taxes, which would mean they really want roughly 8mil from CSA so they "net" roughly 4 million their pockets. But none of it is very clear....its easy to see why they cant cut a deal.  Its almost like they arent speaking the same language.  

Yes, the income is taxable to the players. It is not taxable to the CSA, it’s a flow through.

Edited June 6, 2022 by ag futbol

[Colliedor]

4 minutes ago, Floortom said:

Bad optics - why would he go home before the deal is signed? 

Especially because we all know its very very important to talk face to face. It's just not possible otherwise. He needs to see the players shake their heads!

[ensco]

Bontis leaving town is inexplicable, unless he has lost his job. The team is in the biggest crisis in its history, the players are all there, they have a game Thursday there… and he leaves?

Although the only way this gets done is without Bontis or Cochran in the room, it seems to me.